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Offlinejingus

Registered: 05/04/09
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Buying sand [new questions]
    #13243646 - 09/25/10 05:19 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

i'm going to be starting a bunch of cacti and some p. harmala, and was planning on buying sand at a gardening store.

I want to know what problems would come up if i were to use sand from the beach i find (or from the sand dunes 1 mile in shore).  Would there be too many salts in the sand?  what other problems would there be?



after searching for beach sand etc. i know there is a reason beach sand isn't optimal, but  could i rinse the sand with water, or clean it some other way to get the sand to be good enough quality for my cacti?


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Edited by jingus (09/26/10 07:23 PM)

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OfflineGoOnThen
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: jingus]
    #13243718 - 09/25/10 06:28 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

You actually need course sand like river sand most beach sand is to fine
I just use a good fast draining potting mix plus some perlite if Im planting in pots

Cheers
Got


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OfflineCactusdan
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: GoOnThen]
    #13244092 - 09/25/10 09:23 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

GoOnThen said:
You actually need course sand like river sand most beach sand is to fine
I just use a good fast draining potting mix plus some perlite if Im planting in pots

Cheers
Got




This.

You have to look for either coarse builders sand or coarse horticultural sand.


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: Cactusdan]
    #13244391 - 09/25/10 10:57 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

the prob with beach/river sand is as it erodes it gets to be quite able to compact together.  take some sand, put it in a pot and wet it.  let it dry fully.  if it clumps together/binds...theow it out.  if you tip the pot slightly and it moves around freely, its probably ok.

certain beaches here have great sand for cacti, i use quite a lot.  but you need to check teh sand and test it out.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Offlinethe man
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: kadakuda]
    #13244461 - 09/25/10 11:17 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

most sand you buy is gunna be from an ancient river or lake or when ocean was higher...  real desert sand is much dif then any river or lake sand as far as mineral content :smile: point is its all the same shit(pretty much) unless you find desert sand :smile:  some sand you can buy is actually from crushed gravel which would be a bit closer to desert stuff i suppose.

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OfflineSMUCKA
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: the man]
    #13244613 - 09/25/10 11:55 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

if u do collect sand from beaches. dont forget to wash it as best as possible because u dont really want a salt build up in what ever ur gona grow in it.

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OfflineiFennario
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: SMUCKA]
    #13244816 - 09/25/10 12:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I would spend the $3-$4 USD on a bag of builder's sand before going through the hassle of gathering the sand (probably illegal at most public beaches) and taking it home, then having to try to wash all the salt out. And for me, going to the beach means at least $10 in gas/tolls/parking so I certainly wouldn't make a special trip just for sand.

I do feel silly spending so much money on dirt, perlite, and sand.. but oh well :shrug:


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I don't use or interact with illegal drugs. I joined for the wealth of information available in the Ethnobotanical Garden forum.

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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: iFennario]
    #13245135 - 09/25/10 02:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

any sand for cactus should be washed anyway...if not for salt then for silt/dirt.  the fine shit in most sands acts somewhat like cement and binds it together....bad for roots.

my sand proces is rinse well then sift out the fine crap.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.

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Offlinejingus

Registered: 05/04/09
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: kadakuda]
    #13245242 - 09/25/10 02:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

so what if i were to find some decent sand at the beach (the place i'd be going has pretty fine sand)

but then to compensate for the fact that it's not course enough, just mix ground perlite in to the sand?


I am a minimalist, and find it rediculous to buy something that you know came from the earth in the first place


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OfflineiFennario
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: jingus]
    #13245343 - 09/25/10 02:51 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

jingus said:

I am a minimalist, and find it rediculous to buy something that you know came from the earth in the first place




Not trying to be a dick, but just trying to provoke thought... by that logic, is it not ridiculous to pay for anything? Everything save for a few meteorites and moon rocks is from this earth. You pay for produce in the grocery store, no?

In Florida, the sand on many beaches is "mined" offshore and dumped on the beaches for the tourism industry. That costs money. In your local home improvement store, that bag of sand was mined, bagged, and transported using fossil fuels to a store with expenses like employees/rent/overhead.

I know what you mean, but I also know that nothing comes for free :shrug:


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Offlinejingus

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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: iFennario]
    #13245378 - 09/25/10 03:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

minimalist doesnt mean self-sufficient; being self-sufficient is just my dream...

I try to grow my food, it worked out pretty well this year.  I tried to raise chickens... that didn't work out so well...

I just feel that anything that could be gotten for free (since i go to the beach anyway) SHOULD be gotten for free.

Money=Waste, in my opinion.


and what's your point about fossil fuels used to transport sand?  shouldnt that make me want to NOT buy them even more?



I'm just curious as to the best sand to perlite ratio, here.  and more importantly, how to tell what kind of sand I find may be, and how to compensate for whatever properties in the sand i find.


thanks though

Edit:  and the oregon beach sand is not trucked in...  it's right next to endless natural sand dunes.  we were just tripping there and loving the fact that the sand dunes will slowly grow, and engulf whole buildings like fred meyer, that are right next to the dunes.

i have mixed emotions about that, hah


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Edited by jingus (09/25/10 03:02 PM)

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OfflineiFennario
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: jingus]
    #13246576 - 09/25/10 08:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I just mentioned it in a list of costs associated with getting that bag of sand into the store at that price. :grin:

I wasn't saying you shouldn't go get your sand.. rather explaining why I don't think it's (to paraphrase) ridiculous to pay for things that came from the earth.


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Invisiblekarode13Facebook
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: jingus]
    #13246617 - 09/25/10 08:19 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

I'm just curious as to the best sand to perlite ratio, here.  and more importantly, how to tell what kind of sand I find may be, and how to compensate for whatever properties in the sand i find.






Simply put, there is none.


If you use a fine sand it will compact like kadakuda said and adding perlite is just defeating the purpose of adding sand. You're better off just using perlite.


In horticulture the practice is to use a coarse grade of sand, between .25mm-2mm. The sand is angular in shape and this allows air pockets between the sand that facilitates rapid drainage, even when wet. Fine sand on the other hand is smaller in size and is usually round in appearance. When these rounded particles get wet they compact and no air pockets remain which if used in a soil mix will just smother the roots and problems will arise.



If you can source a coarse grade of sand that drains rapidly when watered and doesn't compact then you can use it. But before you do make sure to wash it to leach out any built up salts and try to remove as much of the fine silt particles as you can.




Sand where I'm from is about $3Au for a 40kg bag and it lasts for ages..If you choose to use a fine sand in your mixes you're pushing shit up a hill to put it bluntly. Go with a coarse grade sand.


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Offlinejingus

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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: karode13]
    #13246971 - 09/25/10 09:50 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

karode13 said:
Quote:

I'm just curious as to the best sand to perlite ratio, here.  and more importantly, how to tell what kind of sand I find may be, and how to compensate for whatever properties in the sand i find.






Simply put, there is none.


If you use a fine sand it will compact like kadakuda said and adding perlite is just defeating the purpose of adding sand. You're better off just using perlite.


In horticulture the practice is to use a coarse grade of sand, between .25mm-2mm. The sand is angular in shape and this allows air pockets between the sand that facilitates rapid drainage, even when wet. Fine sand on the other hand is smaller in size and is usually round in appearance. When these rounded particles get wet they compact and no air pockets remain which if used in a soil mix will just smother the roots and problems will arise.



If you can source a coarse grade of sand that drains rapidly when watered and doesn't compact then you can use it. But before you do make sure to wash it to leach out any built up salts and try to remove as much of the fine silt particles as you can.




Sand where I'm from is about $3Au for a 40kg bag and it lasts for ages..If you choose to use a fine sand in your mixes you're pushing shit up a hill to put it bluntly. Go with a coarse grade sand.





^^a perfect answer.

thanks man, i'll go get some coarse sand hopefully around .25-.2mm


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OfflinetheMallacht
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: jingus]
    #13247177 - 09/25/10 10:31 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah, just ask around at garden centers for Horticultural Grade Sand... the stuff I use is even larger particles than that, I believe 3mm or so...


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Offlinejingus

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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: theMallacht]
    #13250781 - 09/26/10 07:30 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

so I went to a hydroponics store that normally has everything you need.  I saw a bag of sand there , but it didn't say anything about its size or if it was coarse or not.  It didn't even say 'horticultural sand' or anything.

i asked the guy if they had any more sand, and he referred me to the fish store that they share a building with.

Over there, there was some sand that i'm sure would be fine, but in real small bags, and it was obviously for decorational purposes, as in fish tanks.


next i went to Lowes, and they only had Pavers sand, and "medium coarse sand", but it just said "multi-purpose", not horticultural or anything.

last, i went to Fred meyer, where they had whitney farms brand "washed sand",

but it was $3.50 for just 2 dry quarts...
and it really looks like the same size of sand I could find anywhere on the beaches around here.

After all, there are a lot of types of sand in oregon - i'm thinking i can just look for some coarse sand with maybe some small pebbles in there.


none of the sands i saw had any quantitative measurements of the sand particulate sizes.


any more suggestions?  i want to do this right


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Edited by jingus (09/26/10 07:35 PM)

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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: jingus]
    #13251111 - 09/26/10 08:35 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

its not that complicated.  the second a bag has anything specialized put on it the price doubles.  Pet store fish sand, triples...

i buy my sand in huge sacks without writing.  about 50kg for $5-$10.

you can go dig a gravel pit, raid the ocean, river etc etc.  doesnt matter where, just matters what.

avoid any sand that clumps when dry.  thats what you want to avoid.  take an old window screen and sift your sand to get rid of all the fine/dust/silty crap.  keep whats left on the screen, not what falls through.  you should be fine.

sand from water areas are often less used because they clump/stick together more...that said, some areas have quite nice sand from a beach...  If your growing things like trichocereus you can be less picky.


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OfflineiFennario
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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: kadakuda]
    #13251342 - 09/26/10 09:23 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I would think the medium-coarse multi-purpose from Lowes would be fine. I have a big bag that just says multi-purpose and it doesn't really compact or anything.. makes my mixes nice and gritty and quick draining. Like kadakuda said, avoid the fancy expensive stuff. Also avoid "playground sand" which is smaller, smoother and compacts more.

$3.50 for just 2 quarts is a robbery! The bag at lowes probably costs the same and is probably 40 lbs :thumbup:


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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: iFennario]
    #13251468 - 09/26/10 09:48 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I use Pavestone "pavers sand" from Lowes. Is that okay? :eek:

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Re: Buying sand vs beach sand [Re: mdp]
    #13251492 - 09/26/10 09:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If it's free draining it wouldn't be an issue. Do a test.


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