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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Registered: 08/17/07
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Light discussion
    #13164059 - 09/08/10 08:34 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

http://www.biomedsearch.com/nih/Light-regulation-metabolic-pathways-in/19915832.html


"Substantial metabolic differences have been detected between cultures growing in light and darkness. Light seems to have a different effect in dependence on whether the nutritional conditions are optimal or not. Hence, under optimal conditions, light and dark metabolism should be approximately equally effective in supporting growth, but alterations in conditions would affect the processes differently (Carlile 1965)."

"Manipulation of key genes (once identified) could abolish negative regulation of a given mechanism or enhance expression of certain genes without the need of a light stimulus."

"a light effect detected in one species can neither be taken for granted not be ruled out in another without experimental confirmation."

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13164071 - 09/08/10 08:39 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

A lot has been discovered since 1965, and also since 1985 when stamets wrote TMC, but that's a very interesting article in that it shows the ability of fungi to utilize energy from light was well known to science long before it was fully understood by mushroom growers.

For mushrooms, we know they grow larger, meatier, and have much more weight when exposed to 12/12 light at a high frequency in the 6500K color temperature range. 
RR


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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13164459 - 09/08/10 10:42 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That article was written last year.


I'd love to see the paper on what your suggesting.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13165195 - 09/08/10 01:37 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

That's strange.  I could have sworn I saw 1965 on there somewhere.

What paper?  If you're asking about the 'heavier, meatier, larger, etc.,' it's from personal experience, as well as the personal experience of thousands of other growers and commercial mushroom farms.  It's why we use light, and not just as a pinning trigger.  You might also read the mushroom growers handbook, which is posted as a sticky in the gourmet forum.  Also, GGMM by Stamets and Mycelium Running, also by Paul.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13165296 - 09/08/10 01:53 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

The article itself references a number of studies, your not seeing things. lol

I don't see any commercial growers using light in this manner, perhaps to light up the workspace for safety reasons, but i can find no use of lights in commercial fungi growing as demonstrated here at the Shroomery.

Show me a pic of a commercial grower with a 6500k fluorescent light right above each grow bin.. Then I would start to believe.

Certainly there must be some hard proof to corroborate this theory?
I'd even take a simple side by side test done here at the Shroomery. Something more than conjecture.

So if I'm coming off as bit trite RR, I am using the best tools I know of.

You can't apply the same light requirements from one species to another, as they all have unique responses to light.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13166218 - 09/08/10 04:38 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HerbBaker said:

Show me a pic of a commercial grower with a 6500k fluorescent light right above each grow bin.. Then I would start to believe.





Sure.  Show me a shiitake farm that gets 100% B.E. on the first flush like this one does without bright lights.  Why does it have to be fluorescent?  Waterproof fluorescent fixtures are quite expensive and produce a lot of heat, which then has to be gotten rid of.  They're also not as energy efficient as LED.  This farm has 6500K CFL and PAR 30 LED spotlights near the ceiling, and two strands of 6500K LED light rope over each shelf.
RR



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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13166381 - 09/08/10 05:06 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Is that your farm Roger?

Its very nice, but I'm afraid it doesn't count. I already know you like to use lights.

If your saying your the first to do this, then great, you should do a side by side and write a paper!

Of course shiitake aren't cubes, each species would have to be tested on its own to demonstrate its unique light reaction or lack thereof.

Also remember the heat from the lights will increase the metabolic rate of the fungi. When you consider the role of light, how much are you allowing for this offset if any?

I agree LED would be better because of the little heat they produce and their long life.

I'm not disagreeing with you, I'm just wondering exactly what the yield increases are and why. thanks.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13167201 - 09/08/10 07:12 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

HerbBaker said:
Is that your farm Roger?

Its very nice, but I'm afraid it doesn't count. I already know you like to use lights.





Then your opinion is null and void, because that is my farm.

I have already experimented for 40 years, so I'm not about to repeat experiments I did with lighting over the years, impacting my livelihood just to prove a point for the thousandth time.

If what you want is a 'paper' written by some college kid instead of a mushroom farmer with four decades of experience growing mushrooms, then I suggest you seek such a thing and follow that advice.  Every mushroom farm I know keeps their secrets very closely guarded.  They want every competitive advantage over other farms.  I'm the only one I know who freely shares the knowledge I've gained from actual experience.  If you chose not to accept it, no problem.  There's no law that says you have to.

I wholesale my mushrooms for $6 per pound and sell to distributors for only $5 per pound, so the difference of only fifty to a hundred pounds a week means making a living or going broke.  I don't run expensive bright lights because I think they look pretty.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion (moved) [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13167206 - 09/08/10 07:14 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

This thread was moved from Advanced Mycology.

Reason:
Basic cultivation, not an advanced mycology topic.

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OfflineDamion5050
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13167228 - 09/08/10 07:19 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

HerbBaker said:
Is that your farm Roger?

Its very nice, but I'm afraid it doesn't count. I already know you like to use lights.





Then your opinion is null and void, because that is my farm.

I have already experimented for 40 years, so I'm not about to repeat experiments I did with lighting over the years, impacting my livelihood just to prove a point for the thousandth time.

If what you want is a 'paper' written by some college kid instead of a mushroom farmer with four decades of experience growing mushrooms, then I suggest you seek such a thing and follow that advice.  Every mushroom farm I know keeps their secrets very closely guarded.  They want every competitive advantage over other farms.  I'm the only one I know who freely shares the knowledge I've gained from actual experience.  If you chose not to accept it, no problem.  There's no law that says you have to.

I wholesale my mushrooms for $6 per pound and sell to distributors for only $5 per pound, so the difference of only fifty to a hundred pounds a week means making a living or going broke.  I don't run expensive bright lights because I think they look pretty.
RR




:rockon:

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Invisibleplasma
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Re: Light discussion [Re: Damion5050]
    #13167243 - 09/08/10 07:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

:cactuarrun:

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Invisible13shroomsM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: plasma]
    #13167289 - 09/08/10 07:29 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

not again, this dude will argue that fire isnt hot so...:facepalm:


:getstoned:


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OfflineNibin
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13167446 - 09/08/10 08:00 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

If you read the article all it does is confirm what RR and other commercial growers do.

I don't know what knowledge you have of biochemistry or genetics so I won't go into detail, but the article basically says that the presence of light causes many changes in fungi metabolism due to the presence of special light receptor proteins. A host of things are stimulated by light, from the metabolic pathways that lead to reproductive structure formation (fruits), movement of structures (phototropism), increased accumulation of fats, etc etc.


Quote:

"Substantial metabolic differences have been detected between cultures growing in light and darkness. Light seems to have a different effect in dependence on whether the nutritional conditions are optimal or not. Hence, under optimal conditions, light and dark metabolism should be approximately equally effective in supporting growth, but alterations in conditions would affect the processes differently (Carlile 1965)."




I think you have misunderstood this quote "Hence, under optimal conditions, light and dark metabolism should be approximately equally effective in supporting growth, but alterations in conditions would affect the processes differently "

If you read on and also the original article they are saying that if nutrition is optimal at EVERY stage of development then light/dark should (not a fact, they are assuming) be the same. If the nutrition deviates from optimal, light will have an effect on the metabolism of the fungi.

If you realize that at different stages of growth fungi has different nutritional requirements and that you have no way of actually changing the composition of the substrate every time the fungus enters a new stage, then you have to conclude that you cannot have optimal conditions all of the time (optimal conditions for spore germinating will be different to that of colonization or pinning and you only have one set of conditions to work with). As your quote says, when conditions are not optimal, light DOES have an influence in the nutritional metabolism of fungi.

This of course is without even considering the fact that it is IMPOSSIBLE to have optimal conditions in a farm or even a home grow. We grow plants in vitro using equipment and chemicals worth thousands of dollars and we can't even get close to optimal conditions.


You really can't go quoting single sentences of a research article out of context and without reading carefully the rest of it.


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: Nibin]
    #13167739 - 09/08/10 08:55 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

It also needs to be mentioned that the paper concerns conidial fungi, many of which are native to dark spaces.
RR


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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineXiC_clone
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13167765 - 09/08/10 08:59 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I hate arguing the benefits of LED over any heat throwing fixture. The humidity in the air is so much more vital, why destroy it when you do not have to?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: XiC_clone]
    #13167778 - 09/08/10 09:02 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Mostly, I wasn't sure until I got my farm operational that the LEDs would throw enough light to work.  I was hoping they would, but wasn't sure, and in fact I ended up removing some of the PAR 30 LED spotlights and replacing them with high wattage CFLs to up the fruiting performance.  The combination works great.
RR


--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms



semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat

"I've never had a failed experiment.  I've only discovered 10,000 methods which do not work."
Thomas Edison

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OfflineXiC_clone
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13167795 - 09/08/10 09:07 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

I am not on the same scale, but I always get the light as close to the mycelium as possible. Blinding white LED light under a foot from the top layer has done the trick time and time again. And I can not find any brighter light source that throws no heat. Bright blinding unavoidable light, filling the fruiting chamber.


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InvisibleHerbBaker
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Re: Light discussion [Re: XiC_clone]
    #13168388 - 09/08/10 11:21 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Thanks for the responses, I guess I'll just do my own experiments with light.

The article cites a number of different species, sometimes light has been shown to also slow growth in certain species.

Does anyone know the equivalent of 65000k in nanometers?

I see the blue LED are 465nm, would this be the best color LED to get?

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Light discussion [Re: HerbBaker]
    #13168433 - 09/08/10 11:34 PM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Color temperature is a more accurate representation of total useful light than wavelength.  You are correct.  With certain species, very bright light will slow down colonization, but low level light of around 100 lux will speed up growth with those same species.  It amounts to experimenting with various species and even strains of various species to determine what works best.

If you'll search the board for posts over the last two years, you'll find hundreds of growers who switched to 6500K fluorescent lighting with their P cubensis and reported dramatic improvements in performance.  A few of us are experimenting with LED, and to the best of my knowledge, I have the only commercial shiitake farm that is primarily lit with LEDs.  I have a few high wattage CFLs to supplement the LEDs, but I'm sure they could be replaced by more high wattage LEDs, but the cost is an issue now.  High power LEDs are still a few orders of magnitude more expensive than fluorescent.  I'm hoping as the technology advances, they'll drop in price.

I do know that I'm getting 100% BE on the first flush, while most shiitake farms are getting 70% to 100% over two to three flushes, the substrates remaining in the fruiting area for six weeks or so.  This allows me to do one flush and out in two weeks, replacing the spent block with a fresh one, dramatically raising my output per square foot per month.  The spent blocks are moved outside where they fruit again for a couple of months without attention.  We use these outdoor mushrooms for our own table and to trade with our neighbors for eggs, milk, cheese, beef, and vegetables.  Only the indoor mushrooms go to the grocery stores.

For those of you who didn't see it already, our local newspaper did a front page story on our mushroom farm.  Check it out.
RR

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OfflineMad_Hatter2004
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Re: Light discussion [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #13169502 - 09/09/10 09:23 AM (13 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
  We use these outdoor mushrooms for our own table and to trade with our neighbors for eggs, milk, cheese, beef, and vegetables.  Only the indoor mushrooms go to the grocery stores.
RR





That's the way life should be...nice and simple...


BTW,I read that article about your mushroom farm RR,Congratz!


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