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Offline4896744
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Socialism * 1
    #13033012 - 08/10/10 05:58 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Well basically I would like to make this post because last time i asked people for political views, stated my socialist views, and just got bitched out and the thread was closed because it got jacked by a global warming argument.

I would like to debate why socialism is the ultimate and unavoidable final government type (unless it goes as far as communism).

Let the arguments roll in, I am prepared to get severely flamed.


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Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflineJT
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Re: Socialism [Re: 4896744]
    #13033220 - 08/10/10 06:52 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

what kind of socialism are you talking?

democratic socialism, like where we're heading. the government controls 'key' institutions and organizations, but a free market economy exists.
or full blown socialism, where even the economy is strictly controlled by the government's hand?

i think there are a lot of benefits to both kinds, but practically, they will never work. reason being that we have too many people that would leech, not enough resources, and no government which can efficiently ration resources and handle personal business like health care without being oppressive.

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Offline4896744
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Re: Socialism [Re: JT] * 1
    #13033305 - 08/10/10 07:11 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

True full blown socialism is democratic. It is basically communism but with money. If your read Marx's writing it is not a totalitarian government. And also it can work. An example is Norway. They have the highest standard of living in the world and no poverty. It's citizens are also some of the happiest in the world according to the leading lists.

The reason people leech is because of the culture they live in. In the hood no one looks at you weird if you just collect your welfare. In Scandinavian countries your family and neighbors will think you are a loser and no one will like you.

We are slowly evolving into a more uniform world culture and this is helped by things like the internet.

As we become more socialistic education and living standards will rise therefore  eliminating the degenerate poverty cultures that exist.


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Offlineplustax
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Re: Socialism [Re: 4896744]
    #13033564 - 08/10/10 08:07 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

"degenerate poverty cultures"

I'm starting to see why you got flamed.... :rolleyes:

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Offlinedshow
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Re: Socialism [Re: plustax]
    #13033630 - 08/10/10 08:20 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

So you think socialism is the supreme society or.. what? I can see by your name that you think your incredibly enlightened. Those are usually the people that think socialism is great. You dont like communism though? Well socialism will most likely turn into communism. So your already failing. Not trying to flame or anything but... Im sure when a few others get on this, you will need to start defending what your saying. Ill come back tomorrow and this whole topic will probably start blowing up with pros and cons.

Quote:

True full blown socialism is democratic




Your right. Thats why I think democrats arent in the best of interests. Think ROME when you say this. 

Quote:

The reason people leech is because of the culture they live in. In the hood no one looks at you weird if you just collect your welfare. In Scandinavian countries your family and neighbors will think you are a loser and no one will like you.







Well in that case I can conclude two thing. A.) our country is lazy and B.) Black people are more lazy. I wish they did that here too, but how would they know what their neibors were collecting?

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OfflineScavengerType
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Re: Socialism [Re: JT]
    #13033962 - 08/10/10 09:26 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Ya know after reading your post I thought I may bring this video up about turning over some of the wheels of government oversight over to the masses. It points to interesting ways where technology is opening opportunities for greater public participation and whatnot.
us now torrent
Offical website

^ The other 7 parts are in the list there. Not all in proper order.


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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
Conquer's Club

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InvisibleTherian
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Re: Socialism [Re: ScavengerType]
    #13034362 - 08/10/10 10:44 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

In the hood no one looks at you weird if you just collect your welfare. In Scandinavian countries your family and neighbors will think you are a loser and no one will like you.




So true, I've stated this several times myself. In nearly every other culture, even having to collect unemployment is demoralizing. Yet many in the hood wear the fact that they are collecting public assistance like a badge of honor.


Quote:

but how would they know what their neibors were collecting?




I take it you've never lived in the hood. Its easy to tell they are the ones that attempt to sell you their food stamps at fifty cents on the dollar so they can buy smokes an liquor on the publics dime. This happens all the time. In Detroit they also had the welfare market where you could go to certain public parks and buy non perishable groceries for half off from those collecting welfare also. I can tell you now that until the city of Detroit is blessed with thermonuclear cleansing, the state will continue to be fucked. Socialism takes place here daily.

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Socialism [Re: 4896744]
    #13034834 - 08/11/10 01:32 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Using Norway as an example of why Socialism would work world wide does not really work.

1) Norway have immense natural resources which have given them a large amount of wealth. This obviously does not apply to all countries around the world.

2)The Socialist left party actually first sat in power in Norway in 2005 and then only as part of a coalition government (according to wiki!)

I believe all arguments about the merits of the various -isms miss a very serious point: The way a system works depends on the people who apply it. In other words, all systems can work if they get applied in their pure form without human greed and hunger for personal power distorting them.


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Always Smi2le

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OfflineYrat
Hello

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Re: Socialism [Re: GazzBut]
    #13035257 - 08/11/10 05:26 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

"A man who chooses between drinking a glass of milk and a glass of a solution of potassium cyanide does not choose between two beverages; he chooses between life and death. A society that chooses between capitalism and socialism does not choose between two social systems; it chooses between social cooperation and the disintegration of society. Socialism is not an alternative to capitalism; it is an alternative to any system under which men can live as human beings." ~Ludwig von Mises




--------------------
"There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil
to one who is striking at the root."
-Henry David Thoreau
Strike The Root

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OfflineGazzBut
Refraction

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Re: Socialism [Re: Yrat]
    #13035314 - 08/11/10 06:22 AM (13 years, 7 months ago)

And would you like to make a point also?

Ludwig sounds very poetic but he does not really offer any sound logic to back up his flowery rhetoric.


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Always Smi2le

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Offline4896744
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Re: Socialism [Re: dshow]
    #13037315 - 08/11/10 03:53 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

plustax said:
"degenerate poverty cultures"

I'm starting to see why you got flamed.... :rolleyes:




Yes, degenerate poverty cultures. What else would you call the black ghettos? I have nothing against black people; they are set up for failure from the moment they are born in the rut of poverty in America. But the fact of the matter is many of them live off welfare, have tons of kids, don't have fathers, and end up in gangs. When you close the income gap and get rid of the ghettos education becomes more valued and the degenerate side of their culture will begin to fade.

Quote:

dshow said:
So you think socialism is the supreme society or.. what? I can see by your name that you think your incredibly enlightened. Those are usually the people that think socialism is great. You dont like communism though? Well socialism will most likely turn into communism. So your already failing. Not trying to flame or anything but... Im sure when a few others get on this, you will need to start defending what your saying. Ill come back tomorrow and this whole topic will probably start blowing up with pros and cons.

Quote:

True full blown socialism is democratic




Your right. Thats why I think democrats arent in the best of interests. Think ROME when you say this. 

Quote:

The reason people leech is because of the culture they live in. In the hood no one looks at you weird if you just collect your welfare. In Scandinavian countries your family and neighbors will think you are a loser and no one will like you.







Well in that case I can conclude two thing. A.) our country is lazy and B.) Black people are more lazy. I wish they did that here too, but how would they know what their neibors were collecting?




I can see why you would think i am very egotistical because of my name. It is meant to just say I think for myself like most everyone on this forum. And yes what i am saying is socialism is the ultimate society. I believe it will be the unavoidable final form of government. The thing with communism is that there is no money, and I doubt we would be able to have a free society where you choose what you want without some form of credit.

It is undeniable that throughout history governments have become more and more liberal. From monarchy, to parliaments, to democracy (capitalism laissez faire style), to capitalism with more and more regulations.

The problem with capitalism is that it breeds poverty. It creates a society where everything is centered on profit.

A good point was brought up that Norway has good natural resources. Well then I will also point out Sweden and Denmark.

Yes i also realize that even Norway isn't truly Socialist. It is more socialism in the broader sense of many social programs for the good of the people.


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Live your Life! :heart:

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Offline4896744
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Re: Socialism [Re: Yrat]
    #13037334 - 08/11/10 03:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yrat said:
Quote:

"A man who chooses between drinking a glass of milk and a glass of a solution of potassium cyanide does not choose between two beverages; he chooses between life and death. A society that chooses between capitalism and socialism does not choose between two social systems; it chooses between social cooperation and the disintegration of society. Socialism is not an alternative to capitalism; it is an alternative to any system under which men can live as human beings." ~Ludwig von Mises







Last time i checked human beings don't require extreme amounts of money, lives of extreme luxury, or the need to get more more more while your fellow man gets less less less.

True human beings in the most natural evolutionary sense are hunter gatherers.


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Live your Life! :heart:

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InvisiblePrisoner#1
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Re: Socialism [Re: 4896744]
    #13037594 - 08/11/10 04:39 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

iThink said:
True human beings in the most natural evolutionary sense are hunter gatherers.





no

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Offline4896744
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Re: Socialism [Re: Prisoner#1]
    #13037632 - 08/11/10 04:47 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Prisoner#1 said:
Quote:

iThink said:
True human beings in the most natural evolutionary sense are hunter gatherers.





no





Would you like to actually present an argument? And if you are going to argue that evolution isn't real then don't waste your time, I don't want to debate someone that dumb.

Humans were undeniably hunter gatherers, you can learn that by just occasionally watching science or discovery channel.


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Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflinePhred
Fred's son
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Re: Socialism [Re: 4896744]
    #13037666 - 08/11/10 04:55 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

And if you are going to argue that evolution isn't real then don't waste your time...




but then...

Quote:

Humans were undeniably hunter gatherers...





I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice the irony.






Phred


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Offline4896744
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Re: Socialism [Re: Phred]
    #13037736 - 08/11/10 05:10 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Quote:

And if you are going to argue that evolution isn't real then don't waste your time...




but then...

Quote:

Humans were undeniably hunter gatherers...





I'm sure I'm not the only one to notice the irony.






Phred




I don't understand what you are getting at. According to evolution humans evolved into the species we are. They were classified as hunter gatherers along with neanderthals and such. That is how they lived.

I would appreciate some less vague comments.


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Live your Life! :heart:

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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialism [Re: 4896744]
    #13037792 - 08/11/10 05:21 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Okay, then....

Humans were undeniably hunter gatherers...

...but - evolution being an ongoing process - about five or six millennia ago humans began the transition to the more evolutionarily successful strategy of producing their food.





Phred


--------------------

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Offline4896744
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Re: Socialism [Re: Phred]
    #13037816 - 08/11/10 05:25 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Phred said:
Okay, then....

Humans were undeniably hunter gatherers...

...but - evolution being an ongoing process - about five or six millennia ago humans began the transition to the more evolutionarily successful strategy of producing their food.



Phred




Oh true that is a good point. It can be argued that being hunter gatherers was better though. There was a recent study about how hunter gatherers use a lot more of their brain for the things they remember in order to survive, and also humans moving together with agriculture and such created lots of disease. I probably wouldn't agree with what i just said though.

I misspoke trying to disprove unsubstantiated rhetoric.

My b.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Socialism [Re: 4896744]
    #13037863 - 08/11/10 05:38 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It can be argued that being hunter gatherers was better though.




It can certainly be argued, but not convincingly.

However, assuming for the sake of argument that the hunter/gatherer mode of acquiring the necessities of life delivers more benefits to humans than the agricultural  mode, how exactly would that support your belief in the superiority of Socialism over, say, Laissez-faire Capitalism as the way to conduct human interactions?







Phred


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Offline4896744
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Re: Socialism [Re: Phred]
    #13038014 - 08/11/10 06:28 PM (13 years, 7 months ago)

No, I don't want us to become hunter gatherers, I was just putting that view out there.

However I think it would be good if we lived in a society that was less materialistic than the one we live in, and one that cared more about experiences and relationships. It would also help or possibly even be necessary for a socialist government.


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Live your Life! :heart:

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