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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 3,360
Loc: Midwest
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Question about Echinopsis macrogona...
#12205273 - 03/15/10 09:28 AM (14 years, 17 days ago) |
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It states at wikipedia this:
"Trichocereus macrogonus is really just synonym for Trichocereus peruvianus."
Yet above that statement it reads that it's a cousin to peruvianus...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echinopsis_macrogona
Why the contradiction?
Thanks
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dstark
Manifesting Minds
Registered: 02/27/08
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I dont think its true, but who knows...
-------------------- What is a mind, if not something to be messed with? What is consciousness, if not a state to be altered? ~I Feelat Home~
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felixhigh
Scientist
Registered: 06/24/01
Posts: 7,565
Loc: Ly
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That statement is wrong.
There are peruvianus, and there are macrogonus, and they're different.
But macrogonus is so shady that there's no general consensus on how it looks like. Most people seem to think its a shorter spined torch-like cactus, with lots of blue but I'm not sure.
FH
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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
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lotsa confusions...as to the actual descriptions of the cacti, they are not that different at all...and personally given teat they overlap so much in their "official" descriptions and that they hybridize, i personally feel they are more like varieties or perhaps subspecies rather than separate species....either way, if your looking to trip, they can all be good, and they can all be duds....individual variance seems important.
if you believe the main books on the subject, then they are separate species, but none of these books give adequate information to logically separate them into their own rank imo.
-------------------- The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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HarveyWalbanger
Demiurge
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If I'm keeping up with it all, the short answer is; MS Smith believes the latin name macrogonus is defunct due to lack of descriptive diffrence and gets lumped as a peruvianus relative as Latin naming dictates.
Edit: Some literature. The nook's On macrogonus thread is good. The following summary comes from page 4.
Quote:
MS Smith said: In my opinion, this T. peruvianus is a more natural looking form of the T. macrogonus in cultivation. In the end the name T. macrogonus is less valid in my estimation, as it was not even a description of the plant from habitat. Britton & Rose offer a description of the same plant, according to my arguments, in habitat, but one that they are unable to equate with the less fully formed cultivated plants due to differences the environment had on the plants features. Since both are lacking flowers in their descriptions, but one is offering better morphological character descriptions of a plant in its own territory, I would have to say that I think T. peruvianus should be the name given to this plant, and T. macrogonus just be given status as a previous name that is no longer valid.
Edited by HarveyWalbanger (03/15/10 02:59 PM)
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
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Loc: Midwest
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Interesting.
Do any of you have one of these cacti? Is it verified to be it?
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ferrel_human
stone eater
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,399
Loc: Darkside of the moon
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this is my macrogonus seedling with pups. i assume it is because at seedling stage it is so fat. it might be and might not be but its different that the other torches i got.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
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Cactusdan
Patecatl
Registered: 10/11/07
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Loc: Oregon
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Britton & Rose describe Peruvianus as having up to 10 unequal spines ranging to 4cm.
Where they describe Macrogonus as having radial spines of 5-8mm witha 2cm central spine.
Not only this, but they describe Macrogonus aeroles as being 1.5-2cm apart where they describe Peruvianus as being 2-2.5cm apart and brown-felted.
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HarveyWalbanger
Demiurge
Registered: 06/24/02
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Since you asked: And Today:
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 3,360
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Whoa... That last one looks like a cactus growing inside of another cactus lol
-------------------- Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE. Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever! The U.S. Constitution! Best WBS Tek EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek MY TRADES
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ferrel_human
stone eater
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,399
Loc: Darkside of the moon
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i bought this guy as a kk242 peruvian torch. its also a suspect macrogonus.
here is th full shot. its pretty fat and thick and grows extrememly fast. this one as a stock made my loph graft split.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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Re: Question about Echinopsis macrogona... [Re: Cactusdan]
#12210690 - 03/16/10 01:45 AM (14 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Cactusdan said: Britton & Rose describe Peruvianus as having up to 10 unequal spines ranging to 4cm.
Where they describe Macrogonus as having radial spines of 5-8mm witha 2cm central spine.
Not only this, but they describe Macrogonus aeroles as being 1.5-2cm apart where they describe Peruvianus as being 2-2.5cm apart and brown-felted.
the problem with britton, backberg, anderson etc is the plants themselves do not fit strictly into these kinds of things. example.
what do you call a single plant with arms of 5,6, 7, 8, 9 & 10 ribs. and some areoles have 1 or 2 centrals and varying radials....and varying length. the thing is these examples exist, which bring about a lot of confusion.
one thing to ask ourselves. is rib count, radial count, hairier tubes etc on their own enough to split a plant into to distinct species? personally i don't.
we have some researchers publishing that plants that cannot reproduce with each are a single species (ie rowley), and oter authors saying that the shade of new growth on the spines, and rib counts are differentiating points of 2 species.
i am growing all these plants that are from a reliable place from seeds, but the thing is no one seems to agree on what is and isnt, so how CAN you get it from a reliable source when the sources are all at odds with the taxonomists and such?
my conclusion, keep a tag with the sources name on it, and keep another tag for what you work it out to be. and lets hope dna work turns out to be successful.
-------------------- The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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GoOnThen
Stranger
Registered: 02/06/09
Posts: 1,046
Loc: Australia
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Re: Question about Echinopsis macrogona... [Re: ferrel_human]
#12211094 - 03/16/10 04:51 AM (14 years, 16 days ago) |
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I have this which i believe is a Peruvian
Cheers Got
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ferrel_human
stone eater
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,399
Loc: Darkside of the moon
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Re: Question about Echinopsis macrogona... [Re: GoOnThen]
#12212313 - 03/16/10 12:13 PM (14 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
GoOnThen said: I have this which i believe is a Peruvian
Cheers Got
looks like peruvian but taste a little to make sure. i always do this when i take cuttings. just a little piece to test for bitterness. bitterness IMO=more alkaloids as alkaloids are bitter. the more bitter the better.
that is a sweet cactus any way you cut it.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
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mushroomhunter10
Jack-Of-All-Trades
Registered: 10/04/08
Posts: 3,360
Loc: Midwest
Last seen: 8 years, 9 months
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Re: Question about Echinopsis macrogona... [Re: ferrel_human]
#12212425 - 03/16/10 12:32 PM (14 years, 16 days ago) |
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I'm just more confused now. I suppose it just takes time.
-------------------- Imagine if you needed it and it wasn't there... GIVE BLOOD Get a free (PAINLESS) bone marrow testing kit and help save lives HERE. Jesus if you're reading this, please come back already. We need you now more than ever! The U.S. Constitution! Best WBS Tek EZ Potato-Honey Agar Tek MY TRADES
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kadakuda
The Great"Green".......East
Registered: 05/21/04
Posts: 7,048
Loc: Asia
Last seen: 6 years, 2 months
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the more you know, the less you know.
fact of life
-------------------- The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.
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ferrel_human
stone eater
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,399
Loc: Darkside of the moon
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Re: Question about Echinopsis macrogona... [Re: kadakuda]
#12213606 - 03/16/10 03:52 PM (14 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
kadakuda said: the more you know, the less you know.
fact of life
damnit kada! i'm an average idiot then.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
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felixhigh
Scientist
Registered: 06/24/01
Posts: 7,565
Loc: Ly
Last seen: 29 days, 7 hours
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IMO Macrogonus are rather dark green real bluish guys that share lots of reseemblence to torches, but that aren't torches, they do have alkaloids, but not much mescaline.
FH
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ferrel_human
stone eater
Registered: 06/26/09
Posts: 16,399
Loc: Darkside of the moon
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Re: Question about Echinopsis macrogona... [Re: felixhigh]
#12215876 - 03/16/10 09:59 PM (14 years, 16 days ago) |
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Quote:
felixhigh said: IMO Macrogonus are rather dark green real bluish guys that share lots of reseemblence to torches, but that aren't torches, they do have alkaloids, but not much mescaline.
FH
so what do you make of the fat tall boy in one of my previous posts?
i suspect the dude labels his shit and he guarantees its a kk242 torch.
guarantees...pish posh on guarantees.
-------------------- Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely. -Karode
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felixhigh
Scientist
Registered: 06/24/01
Posts: 7,565
Loc: Ly
Last seen: 29 days, 7 hours
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Re: Question about Echinopsis macrogona... [Re: ferrel_human]
#12215969 - 03/16/10 10:15 PM (14 years, 16 days ago) |
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I don't know, I would just avoid any cacti labelled or said to be macrogonus. Sorry, its just a personal dislike, they may look nice but are marketed as active, guess this is what pisses me off the most. But yours is beautiful, whatever it is.
FH
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