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 GoBlue!
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 Proof that faith is a crock? 
#1204156 - 01/09/03 11:43 AM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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It's been pretty well established in this forum that the existance of a God and/or a soul can't be proven or disproven. But many people claim they know these exist because they have "opened their heart", or "searched for the truth", or "have felt God's presense", or "have seen him while tripping", etc.
I might actually buy those arguments. Except they ALL have one VERY serious flaw. People who absolutely positively know the "truth" disagree with one another! This means they are necessarily WRONG!!! If everyone did see the same "truth", then I would almost certainly believe everyone. But the "truth" is almost always either the reiligion that one was born into or it is one that someone attached themselves to because it sounded beautiful.
Don't these differences in what people "know" is the absulute truth PROVE that faith is a crock??? 
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 Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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 mr crisper
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Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 928
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 Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1204190 - 01/09/03 12:07 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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old story -
a group of blind men were at the zoo. the zookeeper took them to the elephants cage, opened the door and let them in, 'go on check it out, the elephant is very placid'.
the first guy groped around until he found the elephants trunk, he wrapped his hands around it and studied its girth and length, 'an elephant is like a thick rope' he informed the others.
the 2nd man found one of the elephant's ears, 'no', he argued, 'an elephant is like a giant palm leaf.'
the third found a leg,' no, you guys are stupid, an elephant is like a tree"
the 4th, the tail,'what are you guys on? an elephant is like a snake'.
they started arguing about their conclusions. the 4th fellow tried to walk around to beat some sense into the others, but walked into the side of the elephant and fell down backwards, 'watch-out' he shouted 'its attacking me!'
maybe its best not to be certain about things we don't have the facilities to fully comprehend.
our 5 senses only detect a very small percentage of what is.
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GoBlue!
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
#1204272 - 01/09/03 12:46 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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In other words, they're ALL wrong, because no one knows what the hell they're looking at!!!  Everyone thinks they know what they see, but none of them figured out the truth.
Of course, blind people aren't as stupid as the ones in the story you told. If the story were real, they would all have a similar answer. But I understand the point you were trying to make.
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Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
Edited by GoBlue! (01/09/03 01:59 PM)
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Swami
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
#1204342 - 01/09/03 01:19 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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If God doesn't exist and people are delusional then reports of truth or encounters with the Supreme Being would be different as GoBlue states.
Yet with your much overused parable we are supposed to overlook the obvious answer that the facts support encounters as being all internal mindstuff and not divine. Other than a fable, what would steer us to believe otherwise?
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The proof is in the pudding.
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Grav
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1204365 - 01/09/03 01:25 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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I think they might feel the truth for a split second but then they fool themselves when they try and describe it or put a label on it. But it's the closest reminder they have so they hold onto it tightly.
Whatever IT is, I know I can not hold onto it, let alone comprehend it. I've learned not to feel upset by this.
It is something you feel in every speck of your body and soul. But as soon as you try and rationalize, the gold from inside you turns to dust as it ruins itself, clumbsily strewn about by a desolate language.
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Swami
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Grav]
#1204401 - 01/09/03 01:35 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Describing the "truth" is not as important as living the "truth", yet those who claim to have seen apparently remain unchanged.
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The proof is in the pudding.
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mr crisper
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Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 928
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Swami]
#1204434 - 01/09/03 01:44 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
the facts support encounters as being all internal mindstuff and not divine
i most heartily agree, it's all in the mind.
but that leaves us with the question - what is mind?
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the free thinker
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1204463 - 01/09/03 01:51 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Excellent post, crisper.
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mr crisper
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Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 928
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Grav]
#1204506 - 01/09/03 02:02 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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your post reminded me of something i read long ago and shares some similar ideas -
from dion fortune's 'the mystical qabalah'
"illumination consists in the introduction of the mind to a higher mode of consciousness than that which is built up out of sensory experience.
in illumination, the mind changes gear, as it were. unless, however, the new mode of consciousness is connected up with the old and translated into terms of finite thought, it remains as a flash of light so brilliant that it blinds.
we do not see by means of the ray of light that shines upon us, but by means of the amount of that ray which is reflected from objects of our own dimension upon which it lights.
unless there are ideas in our minds which are illuminated by this higher mode of consciousness , our minds are merely overwhelmed, and the darkness is more intense to our eyes after that blinding experience of a high mode of consciousness than it was before.
in fact, we do not so much change gear as throw the engine of our mind out of gear altogether. this, for the most part, is what so-called illumination amounts to.
there is enough of a flash to convince us of the reality of super-physical existence, but not enough to teach us anything of its nature."
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Swami
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
#1204510 - 01/09/03 02:03 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Mind is the perceptual result of an individual's lifetime of imprinting on the brain.
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The proof is in the pudding.
Edited by Swami (01/09/03 03:30 PM)
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mr crisper
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Registered: 07/24/00
Posts: 928
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Swami]
#1204591 - 01/09/03 02:22 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mind is the preceptual result of an individual's lifetime of imprinting on the brain.
what is preceptual? not in my dictionary....perceptual?
do you mean to say that mind is simply a chemical process?
like an organic information storage system?
what would be the purpose of these decaying lumps of meat retaining all those drudging memories?
seems a bit far-fetched.
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GoBlue!
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
#1204621 - 01/09/03 02:29 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
It's all in the mind. But that leaves us with the question - what is mind?
Hey, that's throwing in a "red herring". Back to the topic at hand!  
(I believe Mr. Mushrooms would be proud of that observation.) 
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Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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GoBlue!
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
#1204626 - 01/09/03 02:30 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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"higher mode of consciousness" = imagination
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Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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Anonymous
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1204673 - 01/09/03 02:44 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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(I believe Mr. Mushrooms would be proud of that observation.)
He is. Just don't get caught up in all that logic stuff. Critical thinking has its downside.
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GoBlue!
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
#1204691 - 01/09/03 02:48 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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what would be the purpose of these decaying lumps of meat retaining all those drudging memories?
Who said there was a purpose? 
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Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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GoBlue!
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: ]
#1204696 - 01/09/03 02:50 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Just don't get caught up in all that logic stuff.
LOL. 
It's the way my mind works. I just can't believe anything if it's not logical.
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Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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Adamist
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 Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1204709 - 01/09/03 02:53 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Don't these differences in what people "know" is the absulute truth PROVE that faith is a crock???
The only thing this proves is that humans are not capable of interpreting the ABSOLUTE truth. It will always be tainted with an individual's subjective bias.
Faith is an inner thing. And seeing as to how every being is at least slightly different, this would mean that every interpretation of Spirit will be at least slightly different.
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 { { { ṧ◎ηḯ¢ αʟ¢ℌ℮мƴ } } }
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Anonymous
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: mr crisper]
#1204735 - 01/09/03 03:00 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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Yes mr crisper that is an old story immortalized in a poem by John Godfrey Saxe and sometimes attributed to Rudyard Kipling. I have heard that poem since I was dandled on my Mother's knee when she used to read to me from the Childcraft series circa 1955. The inspiration was for the poem was a Buddhist fable found just below the poem.
"It was six men of Indostan
To learning much inclined,
Who went to see the Elephant
(Though all of them were blind),
That each by observation
Might satisfy his mind
The First approached the Elephant,
And happening to fall
Against his broad and sturdy side,
At once began to bawl:
"God bless me! but the Elephant
Is very like a wall!"
The Second, feeling of the tusk,
Cried, "Ho! what have we here
So very round and smooth and sharp?
To me 'tis mighty clear
This wonder of an Elephant
Is very like a spear!"
The Third approached the animal,
And happening to take
The squirming trunk within his hands,
Thus boldly up and spake:
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a snake!"
The Fourth reached out an eager hand,
And felt about the knee.
"What most this wondrous beast is like
Is mighty plain," quoth he, "Tis clear enough the Elephant
Is very like a tree!"
The Fifth, who chanced to touch the ear,
Said: " 'en the blindest man
Can tell what this resembles most;
Deny the fact who can
This marvel of an Elephant
Is very like a fan!
The Sixth no sooner had begun
About the beast to grope,
Than, seizing on the swinging tail
That fell within his scope,
"I see," quoth he, "the Elephant
Is very like a rope!"
And so these men of Indostan
Disputed loud and long,
Each in his own opinion
Exceeding stiff and strong,
Though each was partly in the right,
And all were in the wrong!
Moral:
So oft in theologic wars,
The disputants, I ween,
Rail on in utter ignorance
Of what each other mean,
And prate about an Elephant
Not one of them has seen!
The Blind Men and the Elephant
A number of disciples went to the Buddha and said, "Sir, there are living here in Savatthi many wandering hermits and scholars who indulge in constant dispute, some saying that the world is infinite and eternal and others that it is finite and not eternal, some saying that the soul dies with the body and others that it lives on forever, and so forth. What, Sir, would you say concerning them?"
The Buddha answered, "Once upon a time there was a certain raja who called to his servant and said, 'Come, good fellow, go and gather together in one place all the men of Savatthi who were born blind... and show them an elephant.' 'Very good, sire,' replied the servant, and he did as he was told. He said to the blind men assembled there, 'Here is an elephant,' and to one man he presented the head of the elephant, to another its ears, to another a tusk, to another the trunk, the foot, back, tail, and tuft of the tail, saying to each one that that was the elephant.
"When the blind men had felt the elephant, the raja went to each of them and said to each, 'Well, blind man, have you seen the elephant? Tell me, what sort of thing is an elephant?'
"Thereupon the men who were presented with the head answered, 'Sire, an elephant is like a pot.' And the men who had observed the ear replied, 'An elephant is like a winnowing basket.' Those who had been presented with a tusk said it was a ploughshare. Those who knew only the trunk said it was a plough; others said the body was a grainery; the foot, a pillar; the back, a mortar; the tail, a pestle, the tuft of the tail, a brush.
"Then they began to quarrel, shouting, 'Yes it is!' 'No, it is not!' 'An elephant is not that!' 'Yes, it's like that!' and so on, till they came to blows over the matter.
"Brethren, the raja was delighted with the scene.
"Just so are these preachers and scholars holding various views blind and unseeing.... In their ignorance they are by nature quarrelsome, wrangling, and disputatious, each maintaining reality is thus and thus."
Then the Exalted One rendered this meaning by uttering this verse of uplift,
O how they cling and wrangle, some who claim
For preacher and monk the honored name!
For, quarreling, each to his view they cling.
Such folk see only one side of a thing.
Jainism and Buddhism. Udana 68-69:
Parable of the Blind Men and the Elephant
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Udana 68-69: We give a version of this well-known Indian tale from the Buddhist canon, but some assert it is of Jain origin. It does illustrate well the Jain doctrine of Anekanta, the manysidedness of things. Cf. Tattvarthaslokavartika 116, p. 806. Mihir Yast 10.2: Cf. Analects 15.5, p. 1020
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GoBlue!
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Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: Adamist]
#1204746 - 01/09/03 03:02 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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The only thing this proves is that humans are not capable of interpreting the ABSOLUTE truth.
Great point. They may interpret what they see as "God", when in fact it is really the all powerful Mr. Hankey.
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Just stating my thoughts, not trying to offend
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trippinlizard
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 Re: Proof that faith is a crock? [Re: GoBlue!]
#1204793 - 01/09/03 03:13 PM (21 years, 3 months ago) |
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i've got to say that i'm in the boat with the "people aren't prepared/unable to completely comprehend the true divinity in the universe" group. As previously stated, our five? senses detect a very small amount of the total information around us, and we exist in an extremely small area, universally speaking.
the point that came to me one day when i was mowing my lawn was this:
i was thinking about how nothing ever happens without something making it happen, apples don't just appear, things don't just "become" something has to make them, which presents the question, if the big bang happened, where did the stuff it resulted from come from, wouldn't it make more sense for nothing to ever exist at all? I mean, reality itself must have a starting or beginning point. And i'm not just talking about infinite space with nothing in it, but nothing at all, no reality, zip, zilch, nadda. When this came to me it came like a bullet and was acommpanied by a pretty intense flashback and the feeling something, somthing aware, was making contact with me, but since them the memory has become hazy, and even the most incredible moments of my life are shrouded in mist. 
oh, and as far as lack of preception goes, it's our own damn fault for living in three dimensions.
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fine. do what you want, but i'm drinking the water.
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