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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Hitler the Mystic
    #11592950 - 12/05/09 08:59 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

"It is thus necessary that the individual should come to realize that his own ego is of no importance in comparison with the existence of his nation; that the position of the individual ego is conditioned solely by the interests of the nation as a whole ... that above all the unity of a nation's spirit and will are worth far more than the freedom of the spirit and will of an individual. .... This state of mind, which subordinates the interests of the ego to the conservation of the community, is really the first premise for every truly human culture .... we understand only the individual's capacity to make sacrifices for the community, for his fellow man."

[Adolph Hitler, 1933]


Now, I see here often people advocating ego-death and the idea that the individual is of little or no importance and that the 'community' or the 'common good' is what we should be aiming for.

Take a good look in the mirror and see how the ideas you espouse are equal to one of the most monstrous people in modern history.

This is he road down which your ideas lead you.

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11592978 - 12/05/09 09:04 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Are you also against this quote?

Ask not what your country can do for you; ask what you can do for your country.
--JFK

Too little support for the individual is a bad thing.  Too much support for the individual when this damages the community is also bad.  The middle way is best here, I believe.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: deCypher]
    #11592985 - 12/05/09 09:05 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Of course I am against that quote.

You should ask neither nor should you have cause to ask either.

A country is made up of individuals.

Man is an ends in himself.

The Individual is the most Important thing to him/herself. Self-Importance is true and right.

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11593010 - 12/05/09 09:09 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I may have shot my wad of Hitler trivia in the other thread. :shrug:


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: deCypher]
    #11593040 - 12/05/09 09:14 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Too little support for the individual is a bad thing.  Too much support for the individual when this damages the community is also bad.  The middle way is best here, I believe.




There is not middle way, either you allow individuals to be free to pursue there own happiness free of the initiation of force, or you force him to serve the 'collective good'.

This whole notion of the 'collective good' is bogus anyway. There are only individuals and what is good and bad for specific individuals.

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Registered: 10/25/09
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11593054 - 12/05/09 09:16 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I think Hitler would have fit in well around here

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OfflineKasu
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11593067 - 12/05/09 09:19 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

The petty bourgeois is hostile to the idea of development, for development goes immutably against him; progress has brought him nothing except irredeemable debts. National Socialism rejects not only Marxism but Darwinism. The Nazis curse materialism because the victories of technology over nature have signified the triumph of large capital over small. The leaders of the movement are liquidating “intellectualism” because they themselves possess second- and third-rate intellects, and above all because their historic role does not permit them to pursue a single thought to its conclusion. The petty bourgeois needs a higher authority, which stands above matter and above history, and which is safeguarded from competition, inflation, crisis, and the auction block. To evolution, materialist thought, and rationalism – of the twentieth, nineteenth, and eighteenth centuries – is counterposed in his mind national idealism as the source of heroic inspiration. Hitler’s nation is the mythological shadow of the petty bourgeoisie itself, a pathetic delirium of a thousand-year Reich.

Fascism has opened up the depths of society for politics. Today, not only in peasant homes but also in city skyscrapers, there lives alongside of the twentieth century the tenth or the thirteenth. A hundred million people use electricity and still believe in the magic power of signs and exorcisms. The Pope of Rome broadcasts over the radio about the miraculous transformation of water into wine. Movie stars go to mediums. Aviators who pilot miraculous mechanisms created by man’s genius wear amulets on their sweaters. What inexhaustible reserves they possess of darkness, ignorance, and savagery! Despair has raised them to their feet fascism has given them a banner. Everything that should have been eliminated from the national organism in the form of cultural excrement in the course of the normal development of society has now come gushing out from the throat; capitalist society is puking up the undigested barbarism. Such is the physiology of National Socialism.

German fascism, like Italian fascism, raised itself to power on the backs of the petty bourgeoisie, which it turned into a battering ram against the organizations of the working class and the institutions of democracy. But fascism in power is least of all the rule of the petty bourgeoisie. On the contrary, it is the most ruthless dictatorship of monopoly capital. Mussolini is right: the middle classes are incapable of independent policies. During periods of great crisis they are called upon to reduce to absurdity the policies of one of the two basic classes. Fascism succeeded in putting them at the service of capital Such slogans as state control of trusts and the elimination of unearned income were thrown overboard immediately upon the assumption of power. Instead, the particularism of German “lands” leaning upon the peculiarities of the petty bourgeoisie gave way to capitalist-police centralism. Every success of the internal and foreign policies of National Socialism will inevitably mean the further crushing of small capital by large.  -  Trotsky


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wsws.org

Edited by Kasu (12/05/09 09:22 PM)

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11593087 - 12/05/09 09:24 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

There are many examples of this halfway nonsense that creates untold problems.




Exactly!

Capitalism and subsidies and outlawing substances; i.e. black markets for example. If the USA were totally capitalistic instead of partially, all sorts of regulation and tariffs and legal/enforcement issues would painlessly disappear.

The same with USA-style socialism. It is only partially implemented with all sorts of arbitrary guidelines as to who gets food stamps or welfare or medical treatments or whatever handouts are available.

Same with the tax system.

We have created more and more laws that no one could possibly understand and follow. Ignorance of the law is no excuse? Who knows 500,000 laws? Not even the best lawyers.

It is a fucking Gordian Knot of epic proportions with no end in sight except for total collapse.


--------------------

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InvisibledeCypher
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11593126 - 12/05/09 09:35 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
There is not middle way, either you allow individuals to be free to pursue there own happiness free of the initiation of force, or you force him to serve the 'collective good'.

This whole notion of the 'collective good' is bogus anyway. There are only individuals and what is good and bad for specific individuals.




The trouble is that sometimes an individual will pursue their own happiness while completely oblivious to those around them.  For the good of society (which yes, is comprised of individuals) we try to keep thieves, rapists and murderers from walking our streets because these people are too selfish and show no consideration for the community.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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InvisibleRahz
Alive Again
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Registered: 11/10/05
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11593147 - 12/05/09 09:40 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

I agree with your sentiment. However, it should be pointed out that "ego death" wasn't what Hitler had in mind.

Ego death is an experience worth having IMO. The name is a misnomer, and would perhaps be better called ego blackout, as it doesn't really die. If a person experiences ego death, they get to see what is still there when there is ego silence. As the ego seeps back in, there is the opportunity to see it a new light, as the valuable and limited tool that it is.

:shrug:

However, our views aren't that different. Individualism is highly important in my philosophy. Collectivism is also important. Friends, family, some kind of support group. But to extend such care and consideration to the state, is insane IMO, and is a result of being blinded by the regurgitated pap the 'dear leaders' continue to puke out onto the population.

Government is not to be trusted, and sure as hell ain't family.

Being curious about "ego loss" does not result in a singular road that leads to a fascist mentality, and nationalism is highly egotistical.


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


"The object of opening the mind, as of opening the mouth, is to shut it again on something solid." - Gilbert Keith Chesterton

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: deCypher]
    #11593148 - 12/05/09 09:41 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deCypher said:
Quote:

RationalEgo said:
There is not middle way, either you allow individuals to be free to pursue there own happiness free of the initiation of force, or you force him to serve the 'collective good'.

This whole notion of the 'collective good' is bogus anyway. There are only individuals and what is good and bad for specific individuals.




The trouble is that sometimes an individual will pursue their own happiness while completely oblivious to those around them.  For the good of society (which yes, is comprised of individuals) we try to keep thieves, rapists and murderers from walking our streets because these people are too selfish and show no consideration for the community.





Freedom from the initiation of force already implies that we should deal with those who violate the rights of others. My point is that there are no 'collective' rights, only the rights of the individual.

I also take umbrage with the suggestion that rape, murder and thievery are selfish acts as those acts are not at all conducive to happiness and the self-esteem that happiness depends upon. Those acts are the acts of short-sighted animals who give no thought for integrity and long term happiness. It is not egoistic to rob, rape and murder.

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OfflineKasu
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Registered: 11/25/09
Posts: 97
Loc: Detroit, Michigan
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: deCypher]
    #11593158 - 12/05/09 09:43 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Both sides to this argument are oversimplified, or rather, simplistic. It's not simply a question of individual vs community, there are various contradictions and hidden processes underneath it all, and to simply choose a side, without the slightest understanding of these incredibly complex processes, its history or origins, or the social forces, is hopeless, you won't get anywhere.

You have to look at it dialectically. That is, don't simply look at a given photograph frozen at a moment in time, but the entire film, a complex machine consisting of various contradictory parts, opposites in unity. The community is composed of individuals. These individuals thrive off of the community. The two are opposites in unity. But also, you can't exclude the existence of classes within the community, that transcend individual consciousness, they are a product of the material relations. Within the community, there are two main classes, the capitalist class, and the working class, each with opposite interests and thus are in constant struggle. Every philosophical position contains political consequences that coincides with one of these classes, the question is, which class?

Moreover, class interests dominate political and social life, especially state services like the police apparatus. It isn't a creation by "the community" to keep us safe, it is an instrument of class dictatorship, a conflict, between those who own property and those who must work for a living.

"Individualism", subjectivist-idealism, impressionism, pragmatism, and various varieties of postmodernist philosophy, are all reactionary philosophies that trap workers, and ultimately plays them right into the hands of the bourgeoisie.


--------------------
wsws.org

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InvisibleOrgoneConclusion
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Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: deCypher]
    #11593176 - 12/05/09 09:47 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

we try to keep thieves, rapists and murderers from walking our streets because these people are too selfish and show no consideration for the community.




So instead of the streets, we put them in law enforcement and in Congress.


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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: OrgoneConclusion]
    #11593180 - 12/05/09 09:49 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:

There are many examples of this halfway nonsense that creates untold problems.




Exactly!

Capitalism and subsidies and outlawing substances; i.e. black markets for example. If the USA were totally capitalistic instead of partially, all sorts of regulation and tariffs and legal/enforcement issues would painlessly disappear.

The same with USA-style socialism. It is only partially implemented with all sorts of arbitrary guidelines as to who gets food stamps or welfare or medical treatments or whatever handouts are available.

Same with the tax system.

We have created more and more laws that no one could possibly understand and follow. Ignorance of the law is no excuse? Who knows 500,000 laws? Not even the best lawyers.

It is a fucking Gordian Knot of epic proportions with no end in sight except for total collapse.




:thumbup:

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InvisibledeCypher
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Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11593210 - 12/05/09 09:56 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
I also take umbrage with the suggestion that rape, murder and thievery are selfish acts as those acts are not at all conducive to happiness and the self-esteem that happiness depends upon. Those acts are the acts of short-sighted animals who give no thought for integrity and long term happiness. It is not egoistic to rob, rape and murder.




I am using selfish in the sense that these individuals never consider the ramifications of their actions upon others (perhaps self-centered would be a better word choice, or the opposite of altruistic).  Granted, their strategies typically only yield short-term gratification and are not conducive towards long-term happiness, but that is only a mark of how intelligent their selfish strategies are.  A truly intelligent, selfish individual will realize that the self is most benefited by acting in a way that doesn't get you thrown in prison.


--------------------
We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.

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Offlineandrewss
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: Kasu]
    #11593397 - 12/05/09 10:40 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Haha what... the op seems way over the top, gotta love unspecific jabs at "those people"

equating Hitler with "mysticism" is balderdash (heh love that word) although, yes in SOME way that ego loss blahing is related but come on your connecting of some big dots, seems like propaganda reasoning... this quote from Hitler isnt likely the real content/force which really fueled the power of his parties coming to power (raw power influenced by less silly verbiage; you know like stress, mutual resentment, fear, and yes that tendency to be a sheep - but thats a matter of culturing which is deeper than that Hitler jargon IMO) - of course the fascist mind is fucked up and demands people be sheep it kind of goes both ways but anyway I dont think that is necessarily equatable to whatever one defines as mystical not to mention that term is pretty flimsy.


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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InvisibleRationalEgo
Principium Individuationis


Registered: 06/15/09
Posts: 2,117
Loc: Boston
Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: andrewss]
    #11593576 - 12/05/09 11:18 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

andrewss said:
Haha what... the op seems way over the top, gotta love unspecific jabs at "those people"






The so called 'jabs' were specifically directed. Read my initial post again if you are somewhat confused about who I was refering too.


Quote:


this quote from Hitler isnt likely the real content/force which really fueled the power of his parties coming to power





Have you heard many of Hitler's speeches? This was his underlying message and philosophy. Of courser there were other factors in play that facilitated his rise to power, but his philisophical positions were clear. Also, Hitler was deeply into mysticism and the occult. This is an historical fact.

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OfflineKasu
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11593640 - 12/05/09 11:33 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Yes. He was reactionary both politically and philosophically. Rampant subjectivism, idealism, anti-materialism, fascists thrive on them. These philosophies are not innocent, there are no innocent philosophies. All philosophical positions contain political consequences, they serve certain class interests. Hitler's philosophy culminated into his political position, which was hatred towards the working class, progress, development, and socialism. And, it has me worrying. A lot of people associated with psychedelic drugs tend to adopt these extremely reactionary philosophies, thinking they're psychedelic. They have an amazing psychedelic experience, and draw the most absurd conclusions, such as "the power of thought surpasses matter. the world is all in my mind. Matter doesn't exist. The material world is an illusion", only to find themselves on the other side of the barricades 20 or 30 years down the line.


--------------------
wsws.org

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OfflineLife Upon Death
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: Kasu]
    #11593668 - 12/05/09 11:40 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Kasu said:
Yes. He was reactionary both politically and philosophically. Rampant subjectivism, idealism, anti-materialism, fascists thrive on them. These philosophies are not innocent, there are no innocent philosophies. All philosophical positions contain political consequences, they serve certain class interests. Hitler's philosophy culminated into his political position, which was hatred towards the working class, progress, development, and socialism. And, it has me worrying. A lot of people associated with psychedelic drugs tend to adopt these extremely reactionary philosophies, thinking they're psychedelic. They have an amazing psychedelic experience, and draw the most absurd conclusions, such as "the power of thought surpasses matter. the world is all in my mind. Matter doesn't exist. The material world is an illusion", only to find themselves on the other side of the barricades 20 or 30 years down the line.




:thumbup:

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Offlineandrewss
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Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,725
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Re: Hitler the Mystic [Re: RationalEgo]
    #11593681 - 12/05/09 11:42 PM (14 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RationalEgo said:
I also take umbrage with the suggestion that rape, murder and thievery are selfish acts as those acts are not at all conducive to happiness and the self-esteem that happiness depends upon. Those acts are the acts of short-sighted animals who give no thought for integrity and long term happiness. It is not egoistic to rob, rape and murder.




Quote:

RationalEgo said:
There is not middle way, either you allow individuals to be free to pursue there own happiness free of the initiation of force, or you force him to serve the 'collective good'.

This whole notion of the 'collective good' is bogus anyway. There are only individuals and what is good and bad for specific individuals.




:strokebeard:


--------------------
Jesus loves you.

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