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Offlineimnorml
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Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics
    #11499564 - 11/21/09 03:46 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The shotgun FC is nearly universally considered to work very well.  I agree that it works, but disagree about WHY it works well.

From Let's Grow Mushrooms:
"The theory of operation for the shotgun mushroom fruiting chamber is that natural air currents travel from areas of high pressure to areas of low pressure."
I totally agree, as long as there aren't other, stronger forces at work, like gravity.

"Cool air has the molecules closer together than warm air"
I agree with this, too.

"thus cool air is at a slightly higher pressure than warm air"
This is not true.  Just check the ideal gas law: PV=nRT.  Pressure and Temperature are proportional, if one goes up, so does the other.

"This temperature differential, however slight, results in enough of a pressure gradient that it causes air to flow up through the perlite"

This is not true.  Effectively what this is saying is that COOL AIR RISES.  If this were true, we'd fly in cool air balloons.  Warm air rises because it is less dense and therefore lighter.  Gravity pulls down cool air and doesn't pull as strongly on warm air.

I do agree that the air flows upward through the perlite, but not for this reason.  Probably most importantly, the lamp heats up the air above the FC, the HOT AIR RISES, leaving a partial vacuum, and drawing the air from within the chamber upward.

Second, the air surrounding the perlite is only slightly cooler but significantly more humid than the air above the perlite.  Moist air is lighter than dry air because water molecules are lighter than other air molecules (O2 and N2), water "crowds out" the other, heavier molecules.  Seems counter-intuitive, but true.  It is because moist air is lighter that low pressure zones bring us wet weather.

This lighter, moist air rises both out of the perlite and out of the FC in general.

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Offlinewocka
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11499586 - 11/21/09 03:50 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

so where we going with this?

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Invisiblelordhelmut
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11499610 - 11/21/09 03:53 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

The old ideal gas law, PV=nRT. Excellent explanation!


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Offlinespastick
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: lordhelmut]
    #11499622 - 11/21/09 03:54 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

If what the OP is saying is true, which does seem plausible, how come this hasn't been mentioned before?

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OfflineKanker
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11499733 - 11/21/09 04:11 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

imnorml said:

Gravity pulls down cool air and doesn't pull as strongly on warm air.




orly?


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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: Kanker] * 1
    #11499856 - 11/21/09 04:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

"thus cool air is at a slightly higher pressure than warm air"
This is not true.  Just check the ideal gas law: PV=nRT.  Pressure and Temperature are proportional, if one goes up, so does the other.



That formula applies to monoatomic gasses in a sealed vessel, not a terrarium with holes in it exposed to ambient air at normal atmospheric pressure.

The cooler air surrounding the perlite has the molecules closer together, thus at slightly higher pressure.  The warmer air above has the molecules farther apart, thus lower pressure.  Remember, a terrarium with holes all over it is not a sealed vessel where a rise in temperature causes a corresponding rise in pressure.

You are correct that humid air is lighter(less dense) which is also a contributing factor in it rising to the relatively drier air above.  A balloon rises because the hot air within is less dense than the cooler air around it.  It's not due to the effects of gravity on the air itself.  An airplane wing produces lift by creating a lower pressure area above the wing and a higher pressure area below the wing.  The carburetor on an old car works the same way, creating a lower pressure zone within the venturi, which draws fuel from the bowl through the jets and into the intake manifold.
RR


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Offlinegornyhuy
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11499894 - 11/21/09 04:45 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

What happens if a heat source such as a 'heat bomb' or a heating blanket is placed below the SG FC (with an air gap of several inches between it and the  bottom of the tub)?

Will hot air rise up from the heat source into the holes on the bottom of the terrarium, introducing additional air flow through the perlite and simultaneously warming the air in the chamber, or will it somehow screw up the natural function of the shotgun system?


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Invisibletugwax
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11501026 - 11/21/09 08:01 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
Quote:

"thus cool air is at a slightly higher pressure than warm air"
This is not true.  Just check the ideal gas law: PV=nRT.  Pressure and Temperature are proportional, if one goes up, so does the other.



That formula applies to monoatomic gasses in a sealed vessel, not a terrarium with holes in it exposed to ambient air at normal atmospheric pressure.

The cooler air surrounding the perlite has the molecules closer together, thus at slightly higher pressure.  The warmer air above has the molecules farther apart, thus lower pressure.  Remember, a terrarium with holes all over it is not a sealed vessel where a rise in temperature causes a corresponding rise in pressure.

You are correct that humid air is lighter(less dense) which is also a contributing factor in it rising to the relatively drier air above.  A balloon rises because the hot air within is less dense than the cooler air around it.  It's not due to the effects of gravity on the air itself.  An airplane wing produces lift by creating a lower pressure area above the wing and a higher pressure area below the wing.  The carburetor on an old car works the same way, creating a lower pressure zone within the venturi, which draws fuel from the bowl through the jets and into the intake manifold.
RR




I'm having trouble imagining our chamber having varying regions of 'pressure'.
Surely every space in the chamber will be at the same pressure.

I entirely accept that any heated air inside the chamber will have less 'density' which could cause an upwards chimney effect.

Without a heat source such as from a light, isn't it also possible that dense, cooled perlite air and CO2 drains out the bottom which would draw fresh air in from the top?

Convection aside, there must also be some diffusion across the holes. The mixture of gasses inside will try to match the concentrations outside although this might be slower.

Whatever the exact process of air exchange is, there must be a sweet spot between a given chamber volume, perlite volume and the collective area of holes.

I'm guessing the 1/4" holes spaced 2" were a work of diligent trial and error and might hold true regardless of chamber size.
It would be nice to put a formula together though!


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Offlineimnorml
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: gornyhuy]
    #11501218 - 11/21/09 08:37 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
That formula applies to monoatomic gasses in a sealed vessel, not a terrarium with holes in it exposed to ambient air at normal atmospheric pressure.
The cooler air surrounding the perlite has the molecules closer together, thus at slightly higher pressure.  The warmer air above has the molecules farther apart, thus lower pressure.  Remember, a terrarium with holes all over it is not a sealed vessel where a rise in temperature causes a corresponding rise in pressure.





The ideal gas law applies most accurately to monoatomic gasses, but is a very good approximation in most ordinary circumstances, which is why it is so useful. 

Pressure corresponds to the number of molecular collisions against a surface and also the amount of energy those collisions transfer.  Temperature is, more or less, a measure of how fast particles are moving.  Faster moving particles hit a surface harder, transfer more energy and collectively exert more pressure.  Temperature is just as important as density is in determining pressure.

Also it is not important to have a sealed vessel, which I'll explain.

I didn't want to get into a longer discussion in the OP, but I'll do it here

A volume of ambient air enters the FC and into the perlite.  As it is cooled its volume decreases via PV=nRT.  (If you were to stuff a small balloon into the perlite (this is the "sealed container" idea), you could actually see this volume reduction happen, but the air doesn't behave differently depending upon whether it is in a container.)

As the volume decreases, air will be drawn into the perlite from all directions to compensate for the dropping volume.  In fact the air in the perlite will constantly have a very slightly LOWER pressure because of the cooling, however, this gradient is very small because surrounding air is free to move into the perlite (another benefit of the shotgun!).

Again, these pressure differentials are very small, which is why the effect of gravity on air of different densities becomes the driving force in the shotgun.  Less dense air moves UP, i.e. in the opposite direction of gravity.  I misspoke by saying gravity pulls more strongly on cooler air.  It pulls just the same, but since cooler air is more dense (more stuff per volume), it pulls more strongly a volume of cooler air than on the same volume of hot air, because there are MORE MOLECULES of cold air in the same volume.

The examples of the plane wing and carburetor are not analogous to this situation since both involve very large pressure differentials.  For most everyday situations that you encounter air movement due to temperature/density differentials is much more important.

Quote:

gornyhuy said:
What happens if a heat source such as a 'heat bomb' or a heating blanket is placed below the SG FC (with an air gap of several inches between it and the  bottom of the tub)?

Will hot air rise up from the heat source into the holes on the bottom of the terrarium, introducing additional air flow through the perlite and simultaneously warming the air in the chamber, or will it somehow screw up the natural function of the shotgun system?




Yes, warm air moving from below will add additional air into the FC since it would mean a greater temperature/air-density gradient, but the lamp on top and the substrate providing heat through thermogenesis are probably all that is needed for ideal airflow.  Too much airflow and your perlite and substrate/casing will dry out too quickly.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11501295 - 11/21/09 08:52 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Agreed the pressure gradients are extremely small.  However, in the absence of a vessel, if you heat a gas, it expands and spreads out, becoming less dense, thus less weight, and less pressure, not more. This is why on a hot day, an airplane needs a longer runway to become airborne, engines develop less horsepower, and the density altitude increases.

However, you may be correct in that the molecular weight of the air itself, slightly cooler in the perlite, thus denser and heavier, could be more responsible for the air currents than the pressure gradients.  I doubt it could be measured to determine for sure, at least not on my budget. :shrug:
RR


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Offlineimnorml
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11502919 - 11/22/09 07:55 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

tugwax said:Surely every space in the chamber will be at the same pressure.




There will be slight differences in pressure where there is cooling or heating, but those differences will be quickly and constantly equalize... in an open system, pressures will equalize.

Quote:

RogerRabbit said:
in the absence of a vessel, if you heat a gas, it expands and spreads out, becoming less dense, thus less weight, and less pressure, not more.





You've got it backwards.

When you heat a volume of gas in a vessel the pressure rises and stays that way because the volume can't change. 
When you heat the same volume without the vessel the pressure rises, the volume of the air expands only until the pressure is equalized.
Likewise, when you cool a gas, its pressure decreases, so its volume collapses until the pressure is equalized.

We don't need to empirically test the theory.  Your theory relies upon the principle that COOL AIR RISES, which is not true.

WARM AIR RISES.  This is the driving principle of the shotgun FC.

With this in mind (and seemingly regardless of which principle is at work), I think that an improvement upon the shotgun chamber would be to ONLY HAVE HOLES IN THE TOP AND BOTTOM.  This upward convection is the most important element of the chamber.  Eliminating the holes on the sides will reduce the diffusion of moisture out of the sides and the bottom to top convection should be enough to move CO2 out of the chamber.

Also, keeping the light on 24/7 would probably also help.  Any evidence that 24/7 light is harmful for any reason?

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InvisibleDoc_T
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11502934 - 11/22/09 08:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

imnorml said:
I think that an improvement upon the shotgun chamber would be to ONLY HAVE HOLES IN THE TOP AND BOTTOM



You should try this. Seriously, do side-by side grows and post it.
I suspect that humidity will be great, but you'll lack FAE. But it's worth an experiment.

Quote:

imnorml said:
Also, keeping the light on 24/7 would probably also help.  Any evidence that 24/7 light is harmful for any reason?




Very,very few organisms thrive in constant light.
Some require constant darkness, but the most common pattern is that organisms expect and require daylight, or a reasonable substitute.
This would be pretty easy to test with side-by-side grows, too.


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OfflineCJCollin37
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: Doc_T]
    #11503097 - 11/22/09 09:06 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

My shotgun sits on the floor, no holes on the bottom and only two on the top. I dont even have a hygrometer but my cakes have been producing nice healthy fruits...

Just thought I'd throw that out there...

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Offlinebw86
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: CJCollin37]
    #11503148 - 11/22/09 09:28 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

:nothingtoadd:
but i wish the mush cult had intelligent conversations like this every day!

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: imnorml]
    #11503190 - 11/22/09 09:45 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

imnorml said:
Your theory relies upon the principle that COOL AIR RISES, which is not true.

WARM AIR RISES.  This is the driving principle of the shotgun FC.





Actually, as a certified professional engineer, I've stated the theory of shotgun terrarium operation many times, and it has nothing to do with hot air rising.

It is based on the fact that air currents travel from high pressure to low.  This is how weather works.  The main driving force in weather is the opposite of what you're supposing. 

The sun heats the air, which causes it to become less dense, thus at a lower pressure.  Denser, high pressure cool air then rushes in to equalize the pressure.  Where you're going wrong is in supposing the sun heats the air, causing an increase in pressure, which is not how it works. The highest pressure on the planet occurs in the polar regions during the winter when the air is very cold, not in the equatorial regions during summer when the sun is heating the air to very high temperatures.

The shotgun terrarium is a miniature weather system.  The cooler air within the damp perlite is slightly more dense than the warmer air above, causing air to flow upward towards lower pressure, regardless of temperature.  This airflow results in evaporative cooling within the perlite, perpetuating the flow as long as the air above is at a slightly lower pressure.

I can't make it any easier to understand than that.  The important thing is not to make the mistake of thinking hot air rising is the driving force in weather patterns.  Pressure gradients are the driving force in weather.  The other mistake you're making is assuming that heating the air results in a higher pressure.  The opposite is actually true, warm air is less dense, thus at a lower pressure. 

The reason a hot air balloon floats is not because hot air rises.  The burner controlled by the balloon pilot is only a means to an end...The heat forces the molecules of air in the balloon apart, causing there to be fewer of them in the envelope, thus it's at lower density(weight) and rises.

24/7 light is harmful to fungi and degrades performance.
RR


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Invisibleanonjon
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: RogerRabbit]
    #11503320 - 11/22/09 10:19 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I would just like to point out that even in a monotub or any sealed terrarium, the fruits create some kind of air current that carries the spores away from the gills to above the cap.

Look at any picture of well ripened fruits. There are spore stains on the caps in a slight swirling pattern.

This doesn't support one argument or the other, it just shows that there is absolutely no way to prove how the shotgun fc works, cuz the updraft exists anyway, without any holes at all.


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OfflineLuigiMario
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: anonjon]
    #11503531 - 11/22/09 10:59 AM (14 years, 4 months ago)

I'm agreeing with RR here. When you heat a gas, it wants to expand. If there is nothing restricting that expansion, then the rise in temperature will cause a change in the volume of the gas, not the pressure.

In addition, don't you guys think that natural air currents in the room the FC is sitting in has a lot more to do with FAE than these miniscule differences in pressure and temperature? Any FC is not a very big system, I can't imagine pressure and temperature gradients acting as the driving force behind FAE. Even evaporation of water in the perlite is going to take place regardless of these caveats. Just leave a puddle of water on the counter for a day and see what happens. It magically disappears.

-Luigi:1up:

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Invisibletugwax
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: LuigiMario]
    #11504043 - 11/22/09 12:41 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Quote:

LuigiMario said:

In addition, don't you guys think that natural air currents in the room the FC is sitting in has a lot more to do with FAE than these miniscule differences in pressure and temperature?




I should imagine that closed closets have pretty still air but air circulation in a room would have a very significant effect no doubt..

Hang on aren't we talking about the same thing? The chamber is just like a miniature room with natural air currents. The processes might be minuscule but they are constantly going on and more than enough enough to stop us asphyxiating in our bedrooms at night.

The thing is enough holes prevents stratification of the CO2 laden air which must drain out the bottom, diffuse in all directions, get displaced by water vapor, get flushed by room currents or convect up and out to be replaced by fresh air.

No one process can be discounted but as a qualified rocket motor test engineer, I'm in favor of convection being the major shotgun FAE process (in still air, thanks Luigi).


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OfflineLuigiMario
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: tugwax]
    #11504904 - 11/22/09 03:02 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

Haha I like how this thread has attracted all the engineers on the forum.

I would be curious to see what would happen if you were to put a small FC inside of another container- so that there was air around the FC for circulation but the air itself would be stagnant. That way any and all movement of air inside of the FC would have to be contributed to pressure/temperature gradients moving the air around.

I would volunteer for this experiment but my first grow is still being worked on lol

-Luigi:1up:

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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Shotgun Fruiting Chamber Physics [Re: LuigiMario]
    #11505109 - 11/22/09 03:42 PM (14 years, 4 months ago)

RR is right on this one. The air around the perlite is more dense, thus at the edges it will spread out in all direction attempting to normalize pressure with the surrounding environment. This will cause air to flow from the perlite to the lower density and warmer area above. The perlite does not heat the air, it cools it. As it cools, it becomes more dense. As this density is leveled with the surrounding enviornment, air flows from perlite into FC.

Heated air has absolutely nothing to do with the FC. It is not hot air that flows from the perlite up, it is cool air. The perlite draws in hot air and cools it. This denser air expands upward into the FC. The air in the FC is both warmer and less dense.

It's really pretty simple. :thumbup:

Also, one of the main reasons the air flows up instead of out or down is because up has the most surface area exposed.

Edited by nooneman (11/22/09 03:50 PM)

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