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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Time and (or?) Eternity
#10998101 - 09/04/09 10:33 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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The existence of the eternal now is sometimes denied on the ground that a temporal order cannot co-exist with another order which is non-temporal; and that it is impossible for a changing substance to be united with a changeless substance. This objection, it is obvious, would be valid if the non-temporal order were of a mechanical nature, or if the changeless substance were possessed of spatial and material qualities. But according to the Perennial Philosophy, the eternal now is a consciousness; the divine Ground is spirit; the being of Brahman is chit, or knowledge. That a temporal world should be known and, in being known, sustained and perpetually created by an eternal consciousness is an idea which contains nothing self-contradictory.
Finally, we come to the arguments directed against those who have asserted that the eternal Ground can be unitively known by human minds. This claim is regarded as absurd because it involves the assertion, "At one time I am eternal, at another time I am in time." But this statement is absurd only if man is a being of a twofold nature, capable of living on only one level. But if, as the exponents on the Perennial Philosophy have always maintained, man is not only a body and a psyche, but also a spirit, and if he can at will live either on the merely human plane or else in harmony and even in union with the divine Ground of his being, then the statement makes perfectly good sense. The body is always in time, the spirit is always timeless and the psyche is an amphibious creature compelled by the laws of man's being to associate itself to some extent with its body, but capable, if it so desires, of experiencing and being identified with its spirit and, through its spirit, with the divine Ground. The spirit remains always what it eternally is; but man is so constituted that his psyche cannot always remain identified with the spirit. In the statement, "At one time I am eternal, at another time I am in time," the word "I" stands for the psyche, which passes from time to eternity when it is identified with the spirit and passes again from eternity to time, either voluntarily or by involuntary necessity, when it chooses or is compelled to identify itself with the body.
- Aldous Huxley, The Perennial Philosophy
One cannot deny the fact that events are linearly sequenced; each of us "started" out as absolutely nothing, then we were born, we grew, and to this day, we continue to grow. But this passage asserts that time and eternity co-exist as one entity, and that time's existence resides in and depends on a higher order of being (i.e.- eternity); that time cannot exist without eternity.
My question is this: Can you prove that either time or eternity are either existent or non-existent?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: Poid]
#10998216 - 09/04/09 11:04 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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it could be proven that time doesnt exist as anything but a concept in our mind.
if you isolate an object of any kind in a vacuum - meaning , it does not have interaction with any other material object or energy.. it will not alter. time has no effect by itself. its just a concept designed to describe change.
if this could be proven... i think it would naturally follow to conclude that eternity DOES exist.
-------------------- --------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: jivJaN]
#10998276 - 09/04/09 11:16 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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if you isolate an object of any kind in a vacuum - meaning , it does not have interaction with any other material object or energy.. it will not alter.
Sure it would. It would decay following the increasing entropy of the arrow of time. Thats what time is, the progression from an ordered state to a disordered state. So time is dependent on something to exist but its not our mind, its order. Once the order is gone, time will cease to march forward. (until somehow order is restored, if that is possible)
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jivJaN
yes
Registered: 08/09/08
Posts: 4,245
Last seen: 10 years, 11 months
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: DieCommie]
#10998380 - 09/04/09 11:37 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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i dont quite understand.
how will a rock decay ?
what is order ? who is labeling it as such ? who is perceiving it ?
maybe you should elaborate a bit ..
-------------------- --------------------- All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional. They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively. I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal. If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: DieCommie]
#10998409 - 09/04/09 11:43 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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jivJaN said: it could be proven that time doesnt exist as anything but a concept in our mind.
Can you prove it, though?
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jivJaN said: if you isolate an object of any kind in a vacuum - meaning , it does not have interaction with any other material object or energy.. it will not alter. time has no effect by itself. its just a concept designed to describe change.
So its existence is dependent on the existence of humans? Something about that just doesn't ring quite rightly with me...
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jivJaN said: if this could be proven... i think it would naturally follow to conclude that eternity DOES exist.
But how can the universe house both eternity and time?
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DieCommie said: It would decay following the increasing entropy of the arrow of time.
So time is suscpetible to entropy (i.e.- there is no such thing as eternity)?
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DieCommie said: Thats what time is, the progression from an ordered state to a disordered state.
How so? 9/11 (a disordered state) was all cleaned up (an ordered state), wasn't it?
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DieCommie said: So time is dependent on something to exist but its not our mind, its order.
Is time's existence dependent on anything, or just order?
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DieCommie said: Once the order is gone, time will cease to march forward. (until somehow order is restored, if that is possible)
If time is dependent on anything to exist, then technically, its existence can be sustained by its own existence.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: jivJaN]
#10998428 - 09/04/09 11:46 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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jivJaN said: how will a rock decay ?
Spontaneously. After a very, very long time.
Perhaps instead of 'order and disorder' it would make more intuitive sense to call it unprobable and probable. Things started in a highly unprobable state and are steadily marching to a more probable state. When everything is in its more probable state then time stops. (unless the unprobable state can somehow be restored, perhaps by a god or some other non-sentient process outside of our grasp)
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: Poid]
#10998435 - 09/04/09 11:47 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Poid said: How so? 9/11 (a disordered state) was all cleaned up (an ordered state), wasn't it?
You can go from disorder to order locally at the expense of greater disorder universally.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: DieCommie]
#10998449 - 09/04/09 11:50 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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DieCommie said:
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jivJaN said: how will a rock decay ?
Spontaneously. After a very, very long time.
Do you mean that, after a very, very long time, rock will spontaneously decay, or that rock decays over a process that takes a very, very long time?
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DieCommie said:
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Poid said: How so? 9/11 (a disordered state) was all cleaned up (an ordered state), wasn't it?
You can go from disorder to order locally at the expense of greater disorder universally.
Possibly, but this means you believe that, in the greatest sense, things go from orderly to disorderly. And you have brought forth absolutely no reason why you believe this.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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dummy
I am you and what I see is me
Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 3,973
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: Poid]
#10998465 - 09/04/09 11:54 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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they might be linear from our perspective. the 3rd dimension through the senses of a human being. but they describe the 4th or 5th as a place where time isn't linear but all of it is there at once, always.
-------------------- People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.
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dummy
I am you and what I see is me
Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 3,973
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: dummy]
#10998476 - 09/04/09 11:56 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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poid, stars are made in nebulae, that are basically just large clouds of gas. there is a good example of how order comes from disorder.
-------------------- People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: dummy]
#10998480 - 09/04/09 11:57 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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dummy said: they might be linear from our perspective.
Then, in some sense, they are linear.
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dummy said: but they describe the 4th or 5th as a place where time isn't linear but all of it is there at once, always.
Who are "they", and what is the 4th and/or 5th dimension?
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: dummy]
#10998485 - 09/04/09 11:59 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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dummy said: poid, stars are made in nebulae, that are basically just large clouds of gas. there is a good example of how order comes from disorder.
I didn't say that it was impossible, I said that it isn't the only possible way.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: Poid]
#10998486 - 09/04/09 11:59 AM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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And you have brought forth absolutely no reason why you believe this.
I, and millions others, have observed it. It has never, ever been shown not to be the case and has in fact always been shown to be the case.
I like what dummy says too - our perception works in the direction of order to disorder which is precisely why we observe things in that manner.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: DieCommie]
#10998500 - 09/04/09 12:00 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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DieCommie said: I, and millions others, have observed it.
You have not observed the entire universe, this is bologna.
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DieCommie said: It has never, ever been shown not to be the case and has in fact always been shown to be the case.
If you believe in the big bang, then it isn't the case.
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DieCommie said: I like what dummy says too - our perception works in the direction of order to disorder which is precisely why we observe things in that manner.
I don't necessarily observe things in that manner.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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dummy
I am you and what I see is me
Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 3,973
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: DieCommie]
#10998514 - 09/04/09 12:02 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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they...i suppose are modern theoretical physicists, the other dimensions come up in mathematical equations and in our current understanding of the universe, which is skimpy as fuck at best, have to exist.
-------------------- People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: dummy]
#10998533 - 09/04/09 12:05 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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dummy said: they...i suppose are modern theoretical physicists
Theoretical physics isn't an exact science, and science itself is just composed of theories.
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dummy said: the other dimensions come up in mathematical equations and in our current understanding of the universe, which is skimpy as fuck at best, have to exist.
This is all theoretical mystico-pseudo-scientific mumbo-jumbo!
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: Poid]
#10998537 - 09/04/09 12:07 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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DieCommie said: I, and millions others, have observed it.
You have not observed the entire universe, this is bologna.
I never claimed that I have.
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Poid said:
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DieCommie said: It has never, ever been shown not to be the case and has in fact always been shown to be the case.
If you believe in the big bang, then it isn't the case.
Wrong again. The thermodynamic interpretation of time is completely consistent with the big bang theory.
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Poid said:
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DieCommie said: I like what dummy says too - our perception works in the direction of order to disorder which is precisely why we observe things in that manner.
I don't necessarily observe things in that manner.
Look more carefully next time.
See how fruitful to a discussion your tactic of one-line contradictory answers and statements are?
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DieCommie
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: dummy]
#10998550 - 09/04/09 12:08 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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dummy said: they...i suppose are modern theoretical physicists...
That video has nothing to do with modern theoretical physics. The person who made that is a musician and it is his opinion and his opinion alone. Nothing in that video is supported by mainstream mathematicians or physicists. (It is considered crackpottery)
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dummy
I am you and what I see is me
Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 3,973
Last seen: 1 year, 10 months
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: Poid]
#10998559 - 09/04/09 12:10 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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ya i mean i could definitely see this coming from someone, who like i said in another thread, has never even tried to understand the universe he lives in. you have no sort of training in the matter yet you're just full to the brim of opinions on it.
-------------------- People never seem to know what they least suspect is coming next.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,372
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Time and (or?) Eternity [Re: dummy]
#10998758 - 09/04/09 12:54 PM (14 years, 6 months ago) |
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DieCommie said:
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Poid said:
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DieCommie said: I, and millions others, have observed it.
You have not observed the entire universe, this is bologna.
I never claimed that I have.
Then you're in absolutely no position to claim that, on a cosmic scale, things necessarily must go from orderly to disorderly.
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DieCommie said:
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Poid said:
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DieCommie said: It has never, ever been shown not to be the case and has in fact always been shown to be the case.
If you believe in the big bang, then it isn't the case.
Wrong again. The thermodynamic interpretation of time is completely consistent with the big bang theory.
I'm not talking about a "thermodynamic interpretation of time"; if you think that things must go from orderly to disorderly, then the big bang (a phenomenon that went from nothing, to disorderly, to orderly) clearly proves that you're wrong (assuming, of course, that the big bang theory itself is correct).
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DieCommie said: See how fruitful to a discussion your tactic of one-line contradictory answers and statements are?
Your answer of "look harder" can hardly be considered fruitful.
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dummy said: ya i mean i could definitely see this coming from someone, who like i said in another thread, has never even tried to understand the universe he lives in.
Where in the fuck did you get this?
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dummy said: you have no sort of training in the matter yet you're just full to the brim of opinions on it.
There isn't a smiley here that adequately expresses how fucking stupid this sentence is.
-------------------- Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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