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Offlinesquirrelnutmofia
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Pinhead problem
    #10335064 - 05/13/09 10:06 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I appear to have a unique problem that makes no sense to me.  Over the last few months I’ve read several books and several DOZEN articles and I can’t seem to find any reference to my problem.

I cannot get pinheads (hyphal knots) to form…at all. 

I’m running a Martha greenhouse with a Vicks cool mist (on 24/7) and have bright indirect sunlight coming through my window as well as my 100 watt incandescent bulb in the room.  Room temp is usually from 67-70 Degrees and during incubation I kept the cooler at 84 degrees.  The casing I used was the 50/50+ tek and the mycelium seems to be growing very well throughout the casing layer.

The current batch I have going is of the Penis Envy strain and was incubated (after being cased) until mycelium lightly poked through the casing then I patched it, waited a few days and put it under fruiting conditions.  Its been a little over a week and nothing has happened…  I live at high altitude so I thought I needed to add an ultrasonic to the mix, but after I got excessive ‘fluffy’ growth from the mycelium I realized it was too humid and shut it off.

So I have light, air exchange, high humidity, and over a 10 degree drop in temperature. Am I missing something?  Could it be that this strain takes longer to ‘set pins’ then others?  The only thing I’ve yet to try is L. G Nicholas suggestion, in his book {Psylocybe Mushroom Handbook}, that I should put the freshly cased grain in the fruiting chamber immediately after being cased. His arguement was that doing so prevents overlay from happening and that primordia forms better just below the surface of the casing.

Or could it be that since my temp is usually around 67 degrees that it is just taking longer???

ANY help would be great! i have ZERO problems with every other step (thanks to all the peoples posts on this site) this is my only hang up

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OfflineFunkadelicFlash
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Re: Pinhead problem [Re: squirrelnutmofia]
    #10335103 - 05/13/09 10:13 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Penis envy can take weeks to pin unlike the 3-5 days of other cubes. I just finished a PE grow, and I was a bit impatient and worried as well, but believe me, those meanies will be worth the wait! :laugh:


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: Pinhead problem [Re: FunkadelicFlash]
    #10335119 - 05/13/09 10:16 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Patience. In 10 days if you see no pins then you have reason to worry.

If it fails buy a storage tub and make amonotub and try again. Leave that thing alone and it will work guaranteed with no effor on your part.


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OfflineFunkadelicFlash
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Re: Pinhead problem [Re: LightShedder]
    #10335142 - 05/13/09 10:19 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

LightShedder said:
Patience. In 10 days if you see no pins then you have reason to worry.





Penis Envy can actually take even longer, in ideal conditions it took about 2 weeks for knots and a few more days for my pin-set to show through for me


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OfflineLightShedder
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Re: Pinhead problem [Re: FunkadelicFlash]
    #10335151 - 05/13/09 10:21 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I have limited experience with pE unfortunately. The one time I grew it out it didn't seem to take long then any other cube I've grown. The fruits matured a little slower but primordia formation occurred at the usual time.


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Offlinewissper
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Re: Pinhead problem [Re: squirrelnutmofia]
    #10335178 - 05/13/09 10:26 PM (14 years, 10 months ago)

From my experience it takes a full week or so from when you put the tray in the FC before pins will start to form.  It took exactly 7 days for the batch of malabar I'm working on now. 

What kind of fresh air exchange system are you using?  Are you manually fanning or using some type of hand held fan to do the exchange?  Is your greenhouse completely sealed up or do you leave openings?  I think the temp is a little bit low - might try bumping it up to 70-74 degrees or so if possible.  You should be using a blue spectrum grow light if possible.  I think mine is 13 watts or something around there. I don't think incandescent bulbs do much for triggering pinning, but I could be wrong.  The way I set mine up was to get a long blue grow light from a big box store not to be named and tied it to the shelf above my greenhouse (outside not in).  I run that 12-16 hours a day and mist and fan at least twice a day usually more to make sure the moisture level stays at field capacity (glistening not soaked).  This might be more important in higher elevations as humidity would probably get pulled into the air at a faster rate.  I also use a vicks cool mist v400 at the bottom of the greenhouse in a tub of perlite to keep humidity up and it stays around 98% most of the time even with both sides of the door flap open.  I live in a humid climate though so that probably makes a difference.

I have read others say that PE takes a little longer than some strains to pin and fruit, but again that will vary drastically between grows based on many factors.


Here's how I have mine setup:





You can see the light in the 2nd pic mounted above the GH.  That's worked ok for me up to now, but with more trays in the GH I could actually use a 2nd light on the side for the lower shelves so all trays will be lit evenly.

Without details and pics on the exact setup you have my first guesses on why it's not pinning would be:  type of light is not good for pinning, fae might not be enough, and the moisture content might not be right.  Dry Myc is unhappy Myc. 

:goodluck:

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Offlinesquirrelnutmofia
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Re: Pinhead problem [Re: wissper]
    #10336748 - 05/14/09 08:31 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I just wanted to say thanks for all the quick response posts, i really appreciate them!

I was worried about FAE at first since i only have a 3/4 in hose running from my cool mist to the greenhouse, but i opened the zippers at the bottom about 2 inches to help take that potential problem out of the equation. I've started running the ultrasonic at least a half hour a day to help moisten (but not waterlogged) the casing as well as add a boost to the humidity.  It sounds like a space heater is needed to bump the temp to 74 like a lot of peoples post seem to suggest.

The reason i started growing PE is because of its strong rhizomorphic growth and the spawn run is done in record time.  *not to mention they are VERY potent mushrooms!!!  I have a grain jar of Puerto Rico Cubensis and it takes over a week longer to colonize the same grain.  Does anyone know of a good, potent mushroom strain that colonizes quickly but doesn't have the extended fruiting issues as PE.  In the long run I'm sure PE is worth it, but i wouldn't mind having some contingency mushrooms.

College is out and my friends want a fun mountain camping 'trip', and i cant disappoint them!

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Offlinewissper
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Re: Pinhead problem [Re: squirrelnutmofia]
    #10336769 - 05/14/09 08:41 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

I think by and large if you're using multispore potency can vary drastically from one grow to the next.  If you're cloning a known potent strain using agar or some other media to perpetuate a known potent fruit you get more consistent potency I think though (that's generally speaking of course.. I imagine some strains have a generally higher potency but that will still fluctuate when using MS).

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OfflineBrennus
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Re: Pinhead problem [Re: squirrelnutmofia]
    #10336795 - 05/14/09 08:47 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

squirrelnutmofia said:
I appear to have a unique problem that makes no sense to me.  Over the last few months I�ve read several books and several DOZEN articles and I can�t seem to find any reference to my problem.

I cannot get pinheads (hyphal knots) to form�at all. 

I�m running a Martha greenhouse with a Vicks cool mist (on 24/7) and have bright indirect sunlight coming through my window as well as my 100 watt incandescent bulb in the room.  Room temp is usually from 67-70 Degrees and during incubation I kept the cooler at 84 degrees.  The casing I used was the 50/50+ tek and the mycelium seems to be growing very well throughout the casing layer.

The current batch I have going is of the Penis Envy strain and was incubated (after being cased) until mycelium lightly poked through the casing then I patched it, waited a few days and put it under fruiting conditions.  Its been a little over a week and nothing has happened�  I live at high altitude so I thought I needed to add an ultrasonic to the mix, but after I got excessive �fluffy� growth from the mycelium I realized it was too humid and shut it off.

So I have light, air exchange, high humidity, and over a 10 degree drop in temperature. Am I missing something?  Could it be that this strain takes longer to �set pins� then others?  The only thing I�ve yet to try is L. G Nicholas suggestion, in his book {Psylocybe Mushroom Handbook}, that I should put the freshly cased grain in the fruiting chamber immediately after being cased. His arguement was that doing so prevents overlay from happening and that primordia forms better just below the surface of the casing.

Or could it be that since my temp is usually around 67 degrees that it is just taking longer???

ANY help would be great! i have ZERO problems with every other step (thanks to all the peoples posts on this site) this is my only hang up




Casing layers have been shown to be a completely unnecessary with P. Cubensis and wax paper has been shown, in turn, to provide similar (if not better) results if properly managed.

Otherwise, all I can suggest is that you wait it out.

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OfflineRogerRabbitM
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Re: Pinhead problem [Re: squirrelnutmofia]
    #10336850 - 05/14/09 09:12 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

squirrelnutmofia said:

I cannot get pinheads (hyphal knots) to form�at all. 

I�m running a Martha greenhouse with a Vicks cool mist (on 24/7)




You may be flooding the tray.  There must be an evaporation of moisture from the substrate for pins to form.  If it's saturated, you'll get nothing.

Quote:

squirrelnutmofia said: 

have bright indirect sunlight coming through my window as well as my 100 watt incandescent bulb in the room.




Sunlight is great, but incandescent bulbs are useless.  90% of the energy going into an incandescent bulb is used to make heat, not light.  In addition, the light is at the wrong color temperature, so it's pretty useless.

Quote:

squirrelnutmofia said:
during incubation I kept the cooler at 84 degrees.  The casing I used was the 50/50+ tek and the mycelium seems to be growing very well throughout the casing layer.




Too hot.  High temps stimulate bacteria and thermophilic molds.  Colonize bulk substrates and casing layers at normal room temperature.

Quote:

squirrelnutmofia said:
but after I got excessive �fluffy� growth from the mycelium I realized it was too humid and shut it off.




There's no such thing as too much humidity.  99% is perfect.  Fresh air exchange is the number one pinning trigger, not humidity.

Quote:

squirrelnutmofia said:
and over a 10 degree drop in temperature. Am I missing something? 




Temperature drop is not a pinning trigger with tropical species.  It seems that you've been reading outdated and/or bad information.  Temp drop is a pinning trigger for temperate edible species that fruit in the fall after the cold weather sets in.

Quote:

squirrelnutmofia said:

The only thing I�ve yet to try is L. G Nicholas suggestion, in his book {Psylocybe Mushroom Handbook}, that I should put the freshly cased grain in the fruiting chamber immediately after being cased. His arguement was that doing so prevents overlay from happening



Wrong.  Overlay is EXTREMELY rare.  Too many noobs write books after doing one or two crops and they don't have a clue.  In 35 years of growing, I've seen overlay less times than I can count on my fingers, and that's after thousands and thousands of grows.

Quote:

squirrelnutmofia said:
Or could it be that since my temp is usually around 67 degrees that it is just taking longer???



That's fine.  If you can get it up to 75F, it will be a bit faster.

Make sure you're not flooding your substrate.  In a martha setup, if the mist doesn't absorb into the air, and instead settles on the casing layer, it will saturate it, preventing pinning.  Give a few minutes of direct sunlight each day, and replace the incandescent bulb with a fluorescent cool white, or daylight lamp.  It takes anywhere from a few days to two weeks to get primordia.  Keep the casing layer moist but not wet, and give LOTS of fresh air.  Air is the number one pinning trigger because it causes a loss of moisture from the substrate.
RR


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Offlinesquirrelnutmofia
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Re: Pinhead problem [Re: Brennus]
    #10337132 - 05/14/09 10:39 AM (14 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks for the detailed advice RR; i appreciate all the experienced advice from everyone in fact.  That was a nice and informative yet funny video you put out on home mushroom cultivation, its helped refine my method quite a bit.

Your right, I've been reading that latest mushroom cultivation book by J. Nicholas as well as many of the Paul Stamets books for reference.

From observing the casing layer i can see that it was definitely not over saturated from the Vick's, in fact i was thinking of putting 2 Vick's on the greenhouse to help with the FAE instead of supplementing the humidity with the ultrasonic. (ultrasonic was adding a bit of moisture to the casing surface) I'll start lightly hand misting them at least twice a day and see if that helps.

I've heard of the Wax Paper tek instead of using casing layer and i think I'll try that on a tray or two just to have something to compare it to. This is one of those hobbies that you never seem to run out of experiments to try.

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