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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times
    #10200684 - 04/20/09 10:00 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Several things strike me about this.

1) I seem to remember being told by the Bush Administration that these methods were almost invariably effective and that they were only used a few times, and led to almost immediate confessions.  Why, then, would we need to return to the same person *over a hundred* times?  Do you really expect us to believe this was for new information each time?

2) The people, such as the former CIA director, that are angry this information is coming out are idiots.  They should have known as soon as they decided to do this that it would come out eventually, this being a <gasp> liberal democracy, and that the information would be damaging.  If they aren't comfortable with everyone knowing they did it, they shouldn't fucking do it.  I'm not sure if they are willfully withholding information in an attempt to soften the blows, but they are only making it worse.  It's bad enough to hear that people are tortured, but to hear that it is done hundreds of times to the same individual is absolutely fucking ridiculous.

Everyone here should know, because I've said it a bajillion times that I love America and think it's the greatest fucking country on the planet.  Shit like this just pisses me off.  We are so much better than this.  Yes, KSM is directly responsible for the deaths of thousands of people.  Yes, he's a terrorist scum-bag.  No, I don't want to be on the same level he is, although the CIA seems to be heading that way.

What a crock.

Quote:

http://www.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/04/20/cia.waterboarding/

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- CIA interrogators used waterboarding at least 266 times on two top al Qaeda suspects, according to a Bush-era Justice Department memo released by the Obama administration.

The controversial technique that simulates drowning -- and which President Obama calls torture -- was used at least 83 times in August 2002 on suspected al Qaeda leader Abu Zubaydah, according to the memo.

Interrogators also waterboarded Khalid Sheikh Mohammed 183 times in March 2003. Mohammed is believed to be the mastermind behind the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks on the United States.

Obama released the memo Thursday, saying that "exceptional circumstances surround these memos and require their release." Video Watch other tactics outlined in memos »

The memo, dated May 30, 2005, was from then-Deputy Assistant Attorney General Steven G. Bradbury to John Rizzo, who was acting general counsel for the CIA.

It paints a different picture from the one described by former CIA officer John Kiriakou. In a December 2007 interview with CNN, Kiriakou said Zubaydah had been waterboarded for "about 30 seconds, 35 seconds" and agreed to cooperate with interrogators the following day.

In an interview on "Fox News Sunday," Michael Hayden, who directed the CIA from 2006 to 2009, was asked about the number of times Mohammed was waterboarded.

Hayden denounced the release of the memos and did not comment on the number, saying it was his understanding that the frequency of waterboarding was among the operational details that had not been declassified. Video Watch one expert say tactics 'worse than Abu Ghraib' »

The 2005 memo refers to a letter that had contained the numbers as well. Part of the reference to the letter was redacted in the released memo.

Waterboarding is among the interrogation tactics that Obama has prohibited through an executive order.

The CIA also has admitted waterboarding Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, the first person charged in the United States for the 2000 attack on the USS Cole in Yemen that killed 17 U.S. sailors.

Obama said last week he felt comfortable releasing the classified memos because the Bush administration acknowledged using some of the practices associated with the memos, and the interrogation techniques were widely reported and have since been banned.
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"Withholding these memos would only serve to deny facts that have been in the public domain for some time," Obama said in a statement. "This could contribute to an inaccurate accounting of the past, and fuel erroneous and inflammatory assumptions about actions taken by the United States."

The president applauded the work of the U.S. intelligence community and said no one who "carried out their duties relying in good faith upon legal advice from the Department of Justice" would be prosecuted.




--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10201150 - 04/20/09 11:32 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I posted this in another thread but it belongs here as well
http://www.ibdeditorials.com/IBDArticles.aspx?id=324863168180705
Quote:

We are told by President Obama's senior adviser David Axelrod that the president agonized for four weeks over the "weighty decision" to make public memoranda detailing the specifics of the CIA's tough interrogation of high-value terrorist detainees such as 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammad.

For most other presidents, it would have taken maybe four minutes, required little soul-searching and resulted in the opposite choice.

What on earth could the president have been thinking in revealing the nuts and bolts of how we extract information from al-Qaida operatives to prevent the success of their terrorist operations?

What could have possessed him to make public the steps our interrogators go through, the limits of pain and discomfort they (but not the prisoners) know they will not exceed, and the analytical classification and specific purpose of each of the various techniques?

These top secrets will arm Islamist jihadists with knowledge that will be invaluable to them. Future terrorist detainees will now know, for instance, that their interrogations are under continual video surveillance to make sure no lasting medical or psychological consequences result from the techniques used. Will they now teach themselves to fake such ill effects?

Terrorists will know that when they are placed in a tiny container in "cramped confinement" it will last only "up to two hours," as a declassified memo from the Justice Department to the CIA noted. They will know that "stress positions" are used "only to induce temporary muscle fatigue" not "severe physical pain."

They will now know that when subjected to "water dousing" they need not have the slightest fear of hypothermia, because every precaution is taken to keep the temperature of both the room and the water itself far above freezing.

They will know sleep deprivation inflicted by the interrogators seldom exceeds 96 hours, and they'll know the specifics and purposes behind the relatively mild technique of "dietary manipulation."

What the president has given to our enemies is a treasure chest of defensive weapons. Within the caves of the mountainous Pakistan/Afghanistan border, Islamofascist plotters must wonder how self-destructively corrupt their American adversaries have to be to allow such materials to land in their hands.

The piece of information that may be of most value to terrorists is the government's assessment that waterboarding was "the most traumatic of the enhanced interrogation techniques" and implicitly the most effective.

Terrorist groups around the world will now know that waterboarding was "authorized for, at most, one 30-day period, during which the technique can actually be applied on no more than five days" with "no more than two sessions in any 24-hour period."

Each session lasted no more than two hours, consisting of, at most, six applications of water for 10 seconds each time, for a total of no longer than 12 minutes per each 24-hour period. Presumably the issue is academic since the Obama administration has officially prohibited waterboarding.

There is no more valuable tool for subjects of interrogation than to know what they will be subjected to. How in good conscience could our president have given this gift to those trying to destroy us?




Thanks a lot President Idiot.


--------------------

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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10202149 - 04/20/09 02:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Those poor high level terrorists.:bitch:


I use to roll my eyes when conservatives said liberalism is a mental disease but im beginning to think otherwise.

Sorry i know this post is constructive but it's just mind boggling.

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OfflineRedstorm
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: buckwheat]
    #10202373 - 04/20/09 03:37 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

On the same level as the mental deficiency characterized by those who believe that that revenge = justice?

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: buckwheat]
    #10202509 - 04/20/09 04:04 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

buckwheat said:
Those poor high level terrorists.:bitch:


I use to roll my eyes when conservatives said liberalism is a mental disease but im beginning to think otherwise.

Sorry i know this post is constructive but it's just mind boggling.







I'm not a retard, thanks.

What the fuck is the point of this torture, to you, the enlightened Conservative? :puke:

And zappa, if this is such a terribly effective method of torture, should it really matter to the terrorists if they know it's coming?  Anyone who's gone through any kind of interrogation training will tell you that torture is guaranteed to work no matter how prepared you are for it.

Do you honestly believe that knowing how you'll be tortured will prevent you from spilling the beans?

This is likely one of the silliest things I've heard you say, and I've been talking to you for fucking years.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Offlinedill705
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Redstorm]
    #10203416 - 04/20/09 07:18 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
On the same level as the mental deficiency characterized by those who believe that that revenge = justice?





QFT

I think we should just mainline them some MDMA, they'll cozy right up and tell us everything we want to know. :awesome:


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: dill705]
    #10204079 - 04/20/09 09:19 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Redstorm said:
On the same level as the mental deficiency characterized by those who believe that that revenge = justice?




I know what you are talking about.and i agree for the most part.That is not me.For me it makes sense for  extracting valuable information from these people.

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Invisiblebuckwheat
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10204133 - 04/20/09 09:27 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Quote:

buckwheat said:
Those poor high level terrorists.:bitch:


I use to roll my eyes when conservatives said liberalism is a mental disease but im beginning to think otherwise.

Sorry i know this post is constructive but it's just mind boggling.







I'm not a retard, thanks.

What the fuck is the point of this torture, to you, the enlightened Conservative? :puke:







Mental disease doesn't mean retarded. I wrongly assumed you would be familiar with the premise thats saying is based on,

And i am not a conservative i am very much a social liberal. Im still undecided on our Foreign Policy so i guess i really don't even have a real Political group. I guess i  am a small L libertarian.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10206567 - 04/21/09 11:26 AM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:

And zappa, if this is such a terribly effective method of torture, should it really matter to the terrorists if they know it's coming?  Anyone who's gone through any kind of interrogation training will tell you that torture is guaranteed to work no matter how prepared you are for it.

Do you honestly believe that knowing how you'll be tortured will prevent you from spilling the beans?

This is likely one of the silliest things I've heard you say, and I've been talking to you for fucking years.




They can prepare for it and they will know the limits it will take, thus any fear of worse is removed.  Dumb dumb dumb.  This was another campaign ad at the expense of security.  The President is a stupid affirmative action twat who thinks he is still polishing a resume instead of doing a job.


--------------------

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Offlinepothead_bob
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10206783 - 04/21/09 12:03 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

They can prepare for it and they will know the limits it will take, thus any fear of worse is removed.  Dumb dumb dumb.




Obama said we will not torture, so what are they going to prepare for?  These memos are history - relics from a truly fucked up time in our countries history - and not to be repeated again.  If we do torture again in the future, it would be based on new memos and techniques.  And that qoute you posted above is some journalists opinion, which means very little.  Rush Limbaugh has opinions, too, but it certainly doesn't make him right.


--------------------
No knowledge can be certain, if it is not based
upon mathematics or upon some other knowledge
which is itself based upon the mathematical
sciences.
  -Leonardo da Vinci (1425-1519)

Speak well of your enemies.  After all, you made them.

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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: pothead_bob]
    #10206959 - 04/21/09 12:34 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Those weren't torture.  Obama is a big mouth moron who doesn't know when to shut the fuck up.


--------------------

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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10207827 - 04/21/09 03:05 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)



Tell em Zap.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC

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Offlinedill705
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Icelander]
    #10208145 - 04/21/09 03:59 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

I'm with Jon Stewart:

"You'd think that after 90 times he'd know he wasn't going to be drowned."


--------------------
My advice is to find those things that give pleasure and do them often without too much attachment and relax and wait for the show to end.

-Icelander-

I like free markets and all. Truly I do, at least in general, but there needs to be some kind of oversight in recognition of sustainability. Life works the same way, on a bunch of sustainable systems. Why not honor what made us what we are and take some lessons? Nature FTW!

~dill705~

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: dill705]
    #10208503 - 04/21/09 05:03 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Its getting pretty tiring hearing about the straw man "dangerous terorrist" being waterboarded by the appologists.  If people are asserting that that is the entirety of hte procedure's application then they should demonstrate that is such.


Untill they do it is nothing but an appeal to emotion that is irrelevant.


The debate is not over whether to do this procedure on "high level terrorists" so its tiring to hear people constantly defend the practice.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: zappaisgod]
    #10208550 - 04/21/09 05:10 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
They can prepare for it and they will know the limits it will take, thus any fear of worse is removed.  Dumb dumb dumb.  This was another campaign ad at the expense of security.  The President is a stupid affirmative action twat who thinks he is still polishing a resume instead of doing a job.




What fucking nonsense.

If a little bit of mental preparation is all that it takes to defeat this torture tactic, it's fucking worthless anyway.

The fact we were doing this to people have been common fucking knowledge for fucking years.

What the fuck is the big secret?  Get the fuck out of town.

Your outrage at my security is laughable.  Torturing the fuck out of people, no matter how heinous they are, is infinitely more damaging to my security than anything Obama has done so far.  If you don't think that the resentment garnered by our gloating embrace of torture has led to more people taking up arms against our country, you're off your fucking rocker.

I know you don't care, because you have the whole "Bring 'em On!" mentality raised to prominence by your moronic former leader, but as another mentally challenged pseudo-intellectual is so fond of saying, Ideas Have Consequences.

It was the idea of your party to endlessly torture people to no apparent purpose, but you don't care to see or deal with the consequences of such actions.

You can't have it both ways, and your constant crowing for it to be so is fucking retarded and angers me to no end.

Again, torturing people makes the country less safe, not more so.  Stop fucking killing and torturing people and telling me you're doing it to make me safer.  That is bullshit.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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Invisiblejohnm214
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10208826 - 04/21/09 05:38 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

It appeared to be the idea of more than just his party judging from who was informed and went along with it.




Either way, I don't understand the big security problem anyways.  Ok, they allready know we waterboard so its... the number of times we will use a procedure for no fucking reason?



What was 100's in the manual or something?


Cuz I remembered that, no, it wasn't and thus this doesn't tell them jack shit because we were just waterboarding for pretty much no reason.  So this doesn't show "the ends we will go to"\


This is a democratic country and we should have access to information like this- especially when it is relevant to current public debates.



I fail to see how this information does anything accept make us look completely irrational- far from the "OMG they know 119 is the secret number of tries" some have  made it out to be

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OfflineTGRR
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: johnm214]
    #10209209 - 04/21/09 06:32 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Aw, the CIA acted like Nazis, and Obama told on them.

Bad President, no blowjob.


--------------------
What can we do to help you stop screaming?

Official Mr Shoebat lackey.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Madtowntripper]
    #10209278 - 04/21/09 06:40 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

Madtowntripper said:
Your outrage at my security is laughable.  Torturing the fuck out of people, no matter how heinous they are, is infinitely more damaging to my security than anything Obama has done so far.  If you don't think that the resentment garnered by our gloating embrace of torture has led to more people taking up arms against our country, you're off your fucking rocker.

I know you don't care, because you have the whole "Bring 'em On!" mentality raised to prominence by your moronic former leader, but as another mentally challenged pseudo-intellectual is so fond of saying, Ideas Have Consequences.



:werd:  I couldn't agree more.  :thumbup:


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: TGRR]
    #10209424 - 04/21/09 07:00 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

TGRR said:
Aw, the CIA acted like Nazis, and Obama told on them.

Bad President, no blowjob.



Obama sure got one hell of a welcome from the CIA:  Pres. Obama Remarks to CIA Employees (see the first minute)

Were they clapping for the new president at Langley because he won't punish them, or because they don't have to torture anyone anymore?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  I also attack my side if I think they're wrong.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.

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OfflineMadtowntripper
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Re: Released CIA Memos : Some Suspects Waterboarded Hundreds of Times [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #10209436 - 04/21/09 07:02 PM (14 years, 11 months ago)

If they didn't clap they were used for waterboarding practice.


--------------------
After one comes, through contact with it's administrators, no longer to cherish greatly the law as a remedy in abuses, then the bottle becomes a sovereign means of direct action.  If you cannot throw it at least you can always drink out of it.  - Ernest Hemingway

If it is life that you feel you are missing I can tell you where to find it.  In the law courts, in business, in government.  There is nothing occurring in the streets. Nothing but a dumbshow composed of the helpless and the impotent.    -Cormac MacCarthy

He who learns must suffer. And even in our sleep pain that cannot forget falls drop by drop upon the heart, and in our own despair, against our will, comes wisdom to us by the awful grace of God.  - Aeschylus

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