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 Silversoul
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 Christian morality 
#10095457 - 04/02/09 04:11 PM (15 years, 17 days ago) |
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I was watching a debate between Alister McGrath and Christopher Hitchens, and when discussing the Old Testament and the New Testament, Hitchens said that while the New Testament in sense repudiates the violence of the Old Testament, it contains within it an even worse form of violence: namely, the idea that we should turn the other cheek and love our enemies. He insists instead that we should hate our enemies and seek to destroy them(incidentally, he's lived this ideal by being a die-hard cheerleader for the Iraq War). I've always found this position of his curious. Most atheists will at least acknowledge the great moral example of Jesus while dismissing the supernatural aspects of Christianity. But Hitchens is one of the few atheists I've seen to actually challenge the moral example and teachings of Jesus.
What he attacks here is what I have always found to be the most redeeming feature of Christianity: the idea that we ought to forgive those who have wronged us, and to love even those who hate us. I have always thought that one of the great moral failings of Christians has been their failure to live up to this ideal.
But Hitchens brings up an interesting question: Are we simply to lie down and let evildoers walk all over us without resisting them? I think the Christian answer is emphatically "No!" We are our brother's keeper. What I believe the Christian message of love and forgiveness is pointing to is that the pursuit of justice ought not to be personalized. We are called to love our enemies, but that does not mean they are no longer enemies. We fight them for the sake of justice, not out of vengeance. And because we are called to love and forgive, we are called to seek peaceful resolution whenever possible.
So what say you? Is forgiveness still a good idea? Is it proper and relevant to love our enemies?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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In nature, outside of humans, hate doesn't enter in to any survival equation. Animals do what it takes to survive. If some animal is a threat they deal with it in several ways but never with hate. Hate clouds the issue and mistakes are likely and reactions out of proportion.
But in this yahoos case he, IMO, isn't even smart enough to know who his enemies are.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
But Hitchens brings up an interesting question: Are we simply to lie down and let evildoers walk all over us without resisting them? I think the Christian answer is emphatically "No!" We are our brother's keeper. What I believe the Christian message of love and forgiveness is pointing to is that the pursuit of justice ought not to be personalized. We are called to love our enemies, but that does not mean they are no longer enemies. We fight them for the sake of justice, not out of vengeance. And because we are called to love and forgive, we are called to seek peaceful resolution whenever possible.
I completely disagree. If the Christian message is indeed to spread the message of Love and treat each other as you would be treated, then you must always turn the other cheek. To perform any other action is to set yourself above and beyond others; by what right do you judge others to be enemies? All men are your brothers if you are a Christian; would you on the one side of your mouth proclaim love and forgiveness while on the other stab them in the back?
Justice is solely God's; any human attempt at enacting what he or she believes to be right is guilty of Pride.
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Silversoul said:
So what say you? Is forgiveness still a good idea? Is it proper and relevant to love our enemies?
Good, proper, or relevant ideas... should we really stop for an intellectual rationalization for our actions? Do as your heart commands; love your enemy not because you need a reason but because it is the right thing to do.
All that aside... I do not consider myself a Christian. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Loc: underbelly
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 Re: Christian morality [Re: deCypher]
#10095653 - 04/02/09 04:35 PM (15 years, 17 days ago) |
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Great post.
That commandment sez: "Thou shalt not kill" and that's all it sez.
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"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.
" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.
With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC
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Silversoul
Rhizome
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Loc: The Barricades
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Re: Christian morality [Re: deCypher]
#10095769 - 04/02/09 04:55 PM (15 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
I completely disagree. If the Christian message is indeed to spread the message of Love and treat each other as you would be treated, then you must always turn the other cheek. To perform any other action is to set yourself above and beyond others; by what right do you judge others to be enemies? All men are your brothers if you are a Christian; would you on the one side of your mouth proclaim love and forgiveness while on the other stab them in the back?
Turning the other cheek is actually a form of resistance. In the culture where Jesus grew up, when someone back-handed you, it was a deep insult that essentially marked you as worthless. By standing up and turning the other cheek, we confront them and challenge them to meet us as equals. I don't think there's anything about the teachings of Christ which contradicts the idea of tough love. If you love all as your brothers and sisters, you will seek to stop greater harm from coming upon them, even if it means forcefully restraining or even harming those who seek to inflict violence upon the rest of them.
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Justice is solely God's; any human attempt at enacting what he or she believes to be right is guilty of Pride.
While I don't wish to argue from a purely Biblical perspective, I should point out that this is certainly not what the Bible teaches. Throughout the Bible, God calls upon the people to do what is just, not simply to rely on Him to do it. The Biblical teaching is the people have responsibilities. The Bible resonates with Cain's eternal question: "Am I my brother's keeper?"
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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Quote:
Silversoul said: If you love all as your brothers and sisters, you will seek to stop greater harm from coming upon them, even if it means forcefully restraining or even harming those who seek to inflict violence upon the rest of them.
Is any harm justified, though? No human can ever be absolutely certain that a particular sin will prevent more harm than it would cause; it is not our job to be judgers of other men. That task is left up to God... even if our pacifism causes yet more suffering in the world then at least our martyrdom will say far more than our words or angry deeds ever could.
Quote:
Throughout the Bible, God calls upon the people to do what is just, not simply to rely on Him to do it. The Biblical teaching is the people have responsibilities. The Bible resonates with Cain's eternal question: "Am I my brother's keeper?"
I'm no Bible expert, but doesn't the whole ethic and responsibility of the human race drastically change from the OT to the NT?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Silversoul
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Re: Christian morality [Re: deCypher]
#10096516 - 04/02/09 07:07 PM (15 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Is any harm justified, though?
It is when done in the defense of others against greater harm.
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No human can ever be absolutely certain that a particular sin will prevent more harm than it would cause; it is not our job to be judgers of other men.
We do our best. While we are not supposed to judge others, nor are we supposed to tolerate the endurance of evil. Hate the sin, love the sinner.
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I'm no Bible expert, but doesn't the whole ethic and responsibility of the human race drastically change from the OT to the NT?
Does the phrase "take up your cross" ring a bell?
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 andrewss
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Re: Christian morality [Re: deCypher]
#10096522 - 04/02/09 07:08 PM (15 years, 17 days ago) |
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These sorts of debates remind me just how loupy and absurd a lot of what the Bible says and how much of it is highly idealistic poetry that dissolves when we see what happens in real life. Weary nihilism anyone? Exactly, there is a line! Or we would all just become martyrs and give away anything associated with us. Its simply not natural. But, duh, love isn't intrinsically bad or anything, there are just fine lines and grey area everywhere. So it is funny how the ethic of Jesus is a double take.
I like to acknowledge what makes me a good citizen and person is really the history behind my very existence. I was brought into the world with good parents, in America, things are quite dandy and thus I reflect that to a degree. This isn't to say that we all have somewhere in us a dark side. I think I would be lying to myself if I didn't acknowledge that with my luxury other beings and people had to suffer. Murky murky stuff... But this isn't to say that someone in our positions shouldn't turn a blind eye to the fact that we ought to share the wealth but even then who really does this absolutely?!
Good and evil exist! Heaven would be boring, tragedy and comedy go hand in hand! 
" think the Christian answer is emphatically "No!" We are our brother's keeper. What I believe the Christian message of love and forgiveness is pointing to is that the pursuit of justice ought not to be personalized. We are called to love our enemies, but that does not mean they are no longer enemies. We fight them for the sake of justice, not out of vengeance."
- So the difference is merely words?
Silversoul, after all this apologetics, what then is left as the essential utility of a faith like Christianity?
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Jesus loves you.
Edited by andrewss (04/02/09 07:18 PM)
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Silversoul
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Re: Christian morality [Re: andrewss]
#10096743 - 04/02/09 07:44 PM (15 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
andrewss said:
So the difference is merely words?
Merely words??? You don't get it at all. It is about what lies in the heart of the believer. Justice and vengeance are very different things, and the pursuit of one is radically different than the pursuit of the other, even though both sometimes call for violence.
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Silversoul, after all this apologetics, what then is left as the essential utility of a faith like Christianity?
The change of heart that comes from awakening to Christ.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 56,232
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Quote:
Silversoul said: Justice and vengeance are very different things, and the pursuit of one is radically different than the pursuit of the other, even though both sometimes call for violence.
My point is still that one man's justice is another man's vengeance. Any human perspective we offer is innately flawed and imperfect; to assume that we are absolved of our sins when the sin is for a greater good seems to put us up on a Godlike pedestal IMO.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Redrawing
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Christian morality is highly valuable in the lexicon of religious doctrine. While I find its metaphysical and epistemological stances to be unnervingly anti-intuitive, especially compared with many of the ancient Eastern traditions, I think it made great leaps in the Ethical realm.
And, really, that says a lot about the nature of the societies that have sprung up around the various religious traditions. Historically speaking, I see a lot more of an ethical basis of social organization for societies built up around Theistic doctrines than before the Monotheistic religions took a stronghold on the world. Any history buffs should correct me if I'm wrong in this.
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 I'm an insect who dreamt he was a man and loved it, but now that dream is over and the insect is awake
Edited by Redrawing (04/02/09 08:07 PM)
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OrgoneConclusion
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Quote:
It is when done in the defense of others against greater harm.
Like displacing 2 million Iraqis and causing untold infrastructure damaging while 'protecting' the American citizens from non-Iraqis?
Like imprisoning a million Americans for cannabis?
There are no limits to the damage done by rationalization of one's 'moral' actions.
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Silversoul
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
It is when done in the defense of others against greater harm.
Like displacing 2 million Iraqis and causing untold infrastructure damaging while 'protecting' the American citizens from non-Iraqis?
Like imprisoning a million Americans for cannabis?
There are no limits to the damage done by rationalization of one's 'moral' actions.
Would you suggest as an alternative that we do nothing and simply allow serial killers to go on the loose because it's not our place to judge?
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Christian morality [Re: deCypher]
#10097038 - 04/02/09 08:29 PM (15 years, 17 days ago) |
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I'm stunned at answers at odds, but so convincing. The two of you have my head turning this way and that, trying to decide which is the better.
What I'm left with are personal examples and experiences of how these tenets flesh themselves out in the real world. I'm reminded of a great book on Christian pacifism, but I can't remember the name or the author. I do know of a great piece of Christian trash making the top of the New York Times Best Seller list currently, The Shack. It's a story of a man whose little daughter was brutally murdered and raped. In it, God comes to him in all three persons explaining how He loved the rapist and how the father should do the same. Not only is the book poorly written, the theology is some of the worst I've read. That explains why it's selling like hot cakes.
1) Does God forgive sinners who do not ask for forgiveness?
2) Does God expect us to do what He Himself does not?
Somehow there's this flowery notion that forgiving people means allowing them to walk all over you. No one respects a doormat.
Whether it's correct or not, I like to see forgiveness in terms of letting others go, either to their reward or punishment. Nevertheless, I relish the punishment of those who deserve it. I prefer justice most of all.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Would you suggest as an alternative that we do nothing and simply allow serial killers to go on the loose because it's not our place to judge?
I say we incarcerate serial killers, but on a wholly amoral basis. Law should be enforced with regard to social cohesion, not with regard to what is right in a moral sense.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Re: Christian morality [Re: deCypher]
#10097063 - 04/02/09 08:32 PM (15 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Would you suggest as an alternative that we do nothing and simply allow serial killers to go on the loose because it's not our place to judge?
I say we incarcerate serial killers, but on a wholly amoral basis. Law should be enforced with regard to social cohesion, not with regard to what is right in a moral sense.
Are you saying serial killers are amoral?
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Silversoul
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Re: Christian morality [Re: deCypher]
#10097068 - 04/02/09 08:34 PM (15 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
I say we incarcerate serial killers, but on a wholly amoral basis. Law should be enforced with regard to social cohesion, not with regard to what is right in a moral sense.
In other words, incarcerate them because it is better for society. Don't pretend that this is an amoral decision. You cannot say that the person deserves to be imprisoned without making a value judgment. But it is possible to do so while still forgiving them in your heart and loving them as a fellow human being, which is exactly what I'm talking about.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
I say we incarcerate serial killers, but on a wholly amoral basis. Law should be enforced with regard to social cohesion, not with regard to what is right in a moral sense.
In other words, incarcerate them because it is better for society. Don't pretend that this is an amoral decision. You cannot say that the person deserves to be imprisoned without making a value judgment. But it is possible to do so while still forgiving them in your heart and loving them as a fellow human being, which is exactly what I'm talking about.
That's where I was headed. However, how does this loving and forgiving serial killers who probably haven't done anything to you flesh itself out? In other words, what does it mean? Does it mean you have warm fuzzy feelings and get all gushy about them?
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Silversoul
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Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
That's where I was headed. However, how does this loving and forgiving serial killers who probably haven't done anything to you flesh itself out? In other words, what does it mean? Does it mean you have warm fuzzy feelings and get all gushy about them?
It means recognizing their humanity, purging yourself of any personal ill will towards them, and looking upon them with the eye of compassion. When I think of a serial killer, I weep for their affliction. I think of them not as evil, but as lost souls, and hope for their redemption.
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Mr. Mushrooms
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Mr. Mushrooms said:
That's where I was headed. However, how does this loving and forgiving serial killers who probably haven't done anything to you flesh itself out? In other words, what does it mean? Does it mean you have warm fuzzy feelings and get all gushy about them?
It means recognizing their humanity, purging yourself of any personal ill will towards them, and looking upon them with the eye of compassion. When I think of a serial killer, I weep for their affliction. I think of them not as evil, but as lost souls, and hope for their redemption.
Wow. Do you have as much compassion for their victim's families?
I think of them as evil and in need of punishment.
Your view is much better than mine. I'm humbled by it.
Edit: Wait, and this is in no way a personalism or an attempt to denigrate your post(s). You're not on E right now, are you?
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