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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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The underlying reason
    #10071022 - 03/29/09 11:22 PM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Recently with the help of LSD, I feel there is a reason to life.  I think that the world (when i use word i mean reality/existance/universe) is not as it appears to be, in fact is much more diverse.  That the world we see and know, is mental.  And that the world (void of senses) is so complex and full of life unbeknownst to us, its so complex no one has the ability to even conceive or comprehend it.  I understand that according to quantum mechanics that a particle must be observered by an observer so the observer collapses wave function so the point is in one state.  I think that we humans and all life, complex or not, is here because with out here there would be none of us.  Just particles never in any form, simply expanding in super position.  And that there are forms of life (observers) for all positions of a particle (is there a limit?). 

The reason, the reason for everything to be something..... I don't know what that is.  I don't think its a metaphysical conjecture.  I think its something beyond our capability to understand.  and ITS NOT PHYSICAL.  I think the author of reality is very wise, and intelligent.  That you get to a point in technology, where the author of technology transforms himself using that technology.  That when you understand everything, it gets boring.  And the only thing to satisfy existence is to create more of it.  There is this feeling on LSD where i think "what am i doing?  What is the point of this?  This existance is so bizarre, why are things the way they are?  I understand that i am conscious and aware.  But where did consciousness come from?  All of those questions go back to my idea about the underlying reason.

input?


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OfflineDesertSolitaire
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10071055 - 03/29/09 11:28 PM (15 years, 2 days ago)

so your saying things cycle and return through a main central point?


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10071466 - 03/30/09 12:27 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

No reason
No purpose.
In the infinite.. those two notions are not applicable for a conscious being.
If they were.. it would contradict infinity by implying the end of a consciousness in favor of fulfilling the given purpose.. IMO.

Honestly.. does that make sense to you ?

I have been contemplating lately whether or not my choice of words is acceptable for such complex discussions. :smile:


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All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: jivJaN]
    #10071549 - 03/30/09 12:40 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Honestly that post confused the fuck out of me.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10071587 - 03/30/09 12:48 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

I appreciate the honesty :smile:

Well..
If you had an ultimate purpose..  reason.. you would cease to exist after you fulfill that purpose.
And that goes against infinity.
In the infinite.. there is no purpose..No reason.
And there is nothing outside of the infinite.. For it too would  be contradictory.


Is that better ?

Be honest  :rofl:


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---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: jivJaN]
    #10071603 - 03/30/09 12:52 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Yes that makes sense, it goes against infinity.  What if you have infinite life forms to do their reason?  Is that not impossible?


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10071677 - 03/30/09 01:13 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Now im confused :smile:
Perhaps you didnt understand me once more.. and i most definitely apologize for that.

The way i see it..
You are "god".. just as much as i am.
We are all a part of the infinite. (that is my god=intelligent infinity)
But we also hold the infinity within.
In .. and of it.

Therefore.. WE are infinite.
Meaning.. WE never cease to exist.
If we had a purpose.. we would cease our existence after the task has been performed.
Even if it applied on an individual level.
Meaning >> a task.. recognized as purpose is how i interpret willing slavery.
Sort of like how people make their purpose to have a lot of money.
Well.. i think purpose.. is a construct. It is made..
A purpose only exists within a deterministic machinery..
And i think we are random swerving.
A purpose is a limitation. Therefore it goes against infinity.. and everything .. follows only the laws of the infinite.  It is the only law without bias.
And.. there is only "one" infinity :smile:


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---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: jivJaN]
    #10071699 - 03/30/09 01:18 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

We would cease to exist after the task, but the task is for life.  Life is made of species, in turn made indivudual species, inturn made of individual cells, so to lose some here and there doesn't effect the goal.  As long as we keep multiplying and surviving.  We will reach the reason.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10071768 - 03/30/09 01:32 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

I couldnt disagree more.
First of all.. you would have to define "life"
From your response i would conclude that you are not to keen to accept any form of existence after death.
That is where i believe our complex contemplations would take different routes and i am in no way surprised that you would then take a deterministic approach to reality.

I believe.. it is a trick.

Tell me this. What happens when "we reach the reason" ?


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: jivJaN]
    #10071789 - 03/30/09 01:39 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
I couldnt disagree more.
First of all.. you would have to define "life"


Tell me this. What happens when "we reach the reason" ?




Define life:
  1. Homeostasis: Regulation of the internal environment to maintain a constant state; for example, electrolyte concentration or sweating to reduce temperature.
  2. Organization: Being structurally composed of one or more cells, which are the basic units of life.
  3. Metabolism: Consumption of energy by converting chemicals and energy into cellular components (anabolism) and decomposing organic matter (catabolism). Living things require energy to maintain internal organization (homeostasis) and to produce the other phenomena associated with life.
  4. Growth: Maintenance of a higher rate of synthesis than catabolism. A growing organism increases in size in all of its parts, rather than simply accumulating matter. The particular species begins to multiply and expand as the evolution continues to flourish.
  5. Adaptation: The ability to change over a period of time in response to the environment. This ability is fundamental to the process of evolution and is determined by the organism's heredity as well as the composition of metabolized substances, and external factors present.
  6. Response to stimuli: A response can take many forms, from the contraction of a unicellular organism to external chemicals, to complex reactions involving all the senses of higher animals. A response is often expressed by motion, for example, the leaves of a plant turning toward the sun (phototropism) and chemotaxis.
  7. Reproduction: The ability to produce new organisms. Reproduction can be the division of one cell to form two new cells. Usually the term is applied to the production of a new individual (either asexually, from a single parent organism, or sexually, from at least two differing parent organisms), although strictly speaking it also describes the production of new cells in the process of growth.


What happens when we reach the reason?

Idk:lol:  I have no fucking clue, i do know that when create technology that can absorb infinite amounts of information at an infinite speed, and use nano technology to structurally change the human brain to absorb this infinate information at an infinate speed we are essentially god.  Its more of a question of when its going to happen too.  Not if.  The rate at which technology gets smaller and faster is ridiculously fast.


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10071829 - 03/30/09 01:51 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

That seems to go against :

Quote:


I think its something beyond our capability to understand.  and ITS NOT PHYSICAL.




Make up your mind :smile:

Cause your definition of life only alludes to the physical aspects of it. The material.
And i believe the mind is Immaterial and would be approaching this discussion from a metaphysical point of view .. for lack of a better term.


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: jivJaN]
    #10071839 - 03/30/09 01:54 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:
The author is not physical. 



The author is simply showing/hearing/feeling ect ect us what he does.  Once we know everything, i think we will have a better understanding of the universe and that there IS more than the eye can see, and there IS other life.  That we become the author of another existance, it goes on and on and on....


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OfflinejivJaN
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10071862 - 03/30/09 02:03 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

on.. and on.. and on.
To infinity.
:smile:

We are the authors. An infinite amount of em that is..
Some are just more closer to the whole.

:peace:


--------------------



---------------------

All my posts in this forum are strictly fictional.
They are derived from an acute mental illness , from which i am forced to lie compulsively.
I have never induced any kind of mind altering substance in my life  and i have no intentions whatsoever of doing anything illegal.
If I have ever suggested such a thing it would have most likely been , due to my personality disorder and i probably do not remember it at all..

Extras: Filter Print Post Top
InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: jivJaN]
    #10071872 - 03/30/09 02:06 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

That or we are just a computer simulation.  In some piece of technology from the future.  This conversation and time you spend typing all this is just electrical circuits in a computer.  It makes sense!  Thats all our brain is:smirk:


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10071881 - 03/30/09 02:10 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

Cognitive_Shift said:
Recently with the help of LSD, I feel there is a reason to life.  I think that the world (when i use word i mean reality/existance/universe) is not as it appears to be, in fact is much more diverse.  That the world we see and know, is mental.  And that the world (void of senses) is so complex and full of life unbeknownst to us, its so complex no one has the ability to even conceive or comprehend it.  I understand that according to quantum mechanics that a particle must be observered by an observer so the observer collapses wave function so the point is in one state.  I think that we humans and all life, complex or not, is here because with out here there would be none of us.  Just particles never in any form, simply expanding in super position.  And that there are forms of life (observers) for all positions of a particle (is there a limit?). 

The reason, the reason for everything to be something..... I don't know what that is.  I don't think its a metaphysical conjecture.  I think its something beyond our capability to understand.  and ITS NOT PHYSICAL.  I think the author of reality is very wise, and intelligent.  That you get to a point in technology, where the author of technology transforms himself using that technology.  That when you understand everything, it gets boring.  And the only thing to satisfy existence is to create more of it.  There is this feeling on LSD where i think "what am i doing?  What is the point of this?  This existance is so bizarre, why are things the way they are?  I understand that i am conscious and aware.  But where did consciousness come from?  All of those questions go back to my idea about the underlying reason.

input?





Not too butt in but I like it.  :thumbup:  I think there's a hell of a lot more going on than most of us suspect.


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InvisibleCognitive_Shift
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10071904 - 03/30/09 02:22 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Your not butting in at all!  Welcome dude.

What do you think about the nature of reality?  Do you think its just a metaphysical conjecture.  A quantum fluctuation that caused the big bang, and the cooling of the matter that eventually lead to almost imposible complex systems such as humans to question that?  Or do you think there is something more, something that isn't material at work in the nature of the universe?  But then again the life/nature does change drastically and in a short amount of time. 

Between 3.5 and 4.5 billion years ago there was enough dust and gas to condense into one planet, the planet earth. Shortly after, life arose. From that time until about 570 million years ago was known as the Precambrian Era. Then came the Paleozoic Era in which other forms of life were derived. About 225 million years ago began the Mesozoic Era (the age of reptiles). It was followed by the most recent era, the cenozoic Era. 

So what im getting at is that just like technology (that we created) life is evolving faster and faster.  It went from a couple billion years, then 570 million years, then 225 million years.  The rate at which life is evolving is getting more complex, more interconnected, and much faster.  Is this just the way the universe works?  I personally don't think so.  I think its more probable we are just the technology of something else.  Hell what are we?  A system, a system that runs on electrical impulses, to receive and interpret information.  What is a computer?  Same thing.


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InvisibleMr. Mushrooms
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Cognitive_Shift]
    #10071972 - 03/30/09 02:54 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Thanks.

I can't see how the nature of reality could be anything but a metaphysical conjecture.  I would use construct instead of conjecture though.

>A quantum fluctuation that caused the big bang, and the cooling of the matter that eventually lead to almost imposible complex systems such as humans to question that?

It may seem so, if we limit ourselves to mechanistic and/or materialistic concepts.  Fortunately, with philosophy, we aren't limited in that way.

>Or do you think there is something more, something that isn't material at work in the nature of the universe?

Absolutely.  In fact, I've spelled this out in several threads.  The mind is not synonymous with the brain and I have philosophical evidence for that.

>Between 3.5 and 4.5 billion years ago there was enough dust and gas to condense into one planet, the planet earth. Shortly after, life arose. From that time until about 570 million years ago was known as the Precambrian Era. Then came the Paleozoic Era in which other forms of life were derived. About 225 million years ago began the Mesozoic Era (the age of reptiles). It was followed by the most recent era, the cenozoic Era.

Well, at least that's what some people tell us.  I'm not a geologist so I don't know.

>So what im getting at is that just like technology (that we created) life is evolving faster and faster.  It went from a couple billion years, then 570 million years, then 225 million years.  The rate at which life is evolving is getting more complex, more interconnected, and much faster.

The evolutionist in Waking Life makes a similar claim and thinks we'll get past things like morality.  I think he's full of hot air.  Did you see the movie?

>Is this just the way the universe works?  I personally don't think so.  I think its more probable we are just the technology of something else.  Hell what are we?  A system, a system that runs on electrical impulses, to receive and interpret information.  What is a computer?  Same thing.

There certainly are similarities between our minds and a computer but I think it is deeper than that.  After all, our minds created computers to think for us so why wouldn't there be some similarities?


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OfflineNoteworthy
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Re: The underlying reason [Re: jivJaN]
    #10072018 - 03/30/09 03:12 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Quote:

jivJaN said:

Well..
If you had an ultimate purpose..  reason.. you would cease to exist after you fulfill that purpose.
And that goes against infinity.
In the infinite.. there is no purpose..No reason.
And there is nothing outside of the infinite.. For it too would  be contradictory.






This point you make runs through your posts in this thread.

But.. I dont get it really.

If you had an ultimate purpose.. you would cease to exist after you fulfill that purpose? Well yeh sure, if the purpose was just a task that you had to complete. But.. You are looking at 'purpose', 'reason', 'function' as if it is an 'end' and life is the 'means'. Rather, imagine that life is the platform, our reason, our purpose, is the means to an end which is.. well I cant say, because this would depend on how you interpret your purpose etc.

But the POINT that im getting at is that someone's purpose or 'underlying reason' can be to play a role and there is no 'finnish' to a role.. you play the role while you can.. if you end up ceasing to play the role then you have ceased to fulfil your purpose until you can/do play that role again.

Even if you existed for eternity, you could spend eternity playing out your role

So I dont think that a purpose in any way contradicts with the notion of infinity, in which case your whole argument is hard to agree with


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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Noteworthy]
    #10072061 - 03/30/09 03:30 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

As for my own views on this notion, I dont think there really is any meaning to anything. however, we as humans, our whole life is based on meaning and purpose.. so even if its in our imaginations, it is all that really matters to us in the end. So the point of life to me seems to be to play a role in some (any/all) scheme that is higher than yourself.

As conscious beings, we might have just arisen in this universe.. or it might have been prepared for us.. either way, it seems pretty clear that IF we were put here by a higher creator, part of the 'game' is not to actually work out the game, but to play it. There is no part of the universe that has been made to inform the universe of the universe that it exists in... it is just set up in a certain way and let to run...

SO we should just play this game.. and be spirits controlling bodies in a world that we all share and thus must cooperate around or compete for.

Our measure of success is merely whether or not we measure success. IE to say that it is subjective.. so it can never be an objective thing.. but at teh same time, the only thing that ever makes us think about 'why' the universe exists is a subjective feeling that it seems too well planned...

yer so just find a purpose.. let it be anything.. merely judge it by the extent to which people would judge that you are enriching their universe with meaning.

just be part of the story of man and you will have a purpose and life will be meaningful and so will you.

alternatively you can do nothing and you will become merely a part of the chaos from which the story of man emerges

Notice the story that they teach everyone.. the 'great american dream'.. get a job live a life have kids settle down retire and know that you were a respectable member of society.

but this is a pretty blind way of looking at life because it makes people seek something based on its generalised approval, as opposed to basing their value on WHAT they accomplish, eg with their specific job and who their specific kids end up, how they influence the lay of the land and the trends of their peers. whos lives they help and who those people end up becoming.

One of the problems of todays society is that we scarcely meet again any of the people that we interact with and influence every day, so it is hard to keep track of the relevance of any of our roles... most people acheive significantly little on a large scale.. but on a small scale, between individuals, most people acheive a lifetimes worth of meaning. However since it can be too hard to keep track of in todays world.. people just go for the generalised method of keeping track - eg how much wealth and property you have. This is meant to indirectly indicate how much purpose you have performed, because presumably we have to actually do things in order to get the money.

but the issue here lies in the fact that people JUST look at money and not at why that money is being traded in teh first place and what it represents in terms of an acomplishment or something that you have 'earned'.


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Re: The underlying reason [Re: Mr. Mushrooms]
    #10072068 - 03/30/09 03:35 AM (15 years, 2 days ago)

Okay, i liked those ideas.

So you are a dualist then, where do you suppose mind is from?  Or is the mind just a by product of matter being matter, and following certain physical laws?


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