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 Heruuka
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Registered: 10/16/99
Posts: 312
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 on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation 
#1326163 - 02/22/03 09:43 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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This is more of a question than a topic, in actuallity, but i think it has thepossibility for turning into an invaluable resource for those of us wishing to expand both our hobbies and our minds.
A thread posted here in the advanced forum a while back has caused a lot of us to think about the logistics of incorporating computers into our environmental control systems. The sheer practicality is unbeatable, given an acceptably user-friendly software interface, as we would finally be able to monitor and effect ALL variables involved in the environment we are trying to create, to the point of even directly measuring and changing gas concentrations down to single ppm. I've been doing a little research, and the cost seems prohibitve. The homemade alternative looks like the answer, but i'm unsure as to whether or not the software is easy enough for most of us to use. I'll be purchasing a copy of this software soon, and i'll report back. The ideal combination of software and hardware, as far as price is concerned, would be the homemade unit linked with something like LabTechCONTROL ( a fully functional shareware version can be downloaded from here ). Unfortunately i don't think this is possible because of the parallel port interface of the homemade DAS. Could someone please explain the compatability issues associated with DASs? Would it be difficult to write a driver for the homemade DAS?
Are there any cheap DAS's available that have at least 8 inputs and 8 outputs?
I'm really still very much in the dark about automation but would very much like to learn more. I'll continue my research, and hopefully post some relevent information in the next few days. In the mean time, i encourage all of you who are on the same wavelength to do your own research and contribute to this post so that we can all learn more.
Any and all relevent posts are greatly appreciated by me, and, i'm sure, the community aswell.
Thanks
H
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 debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK
 
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: Heruuka]
#1328545 - 02/23/03 11:55 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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either fill me in on the acronyms or tell me you are talking about DACs and PLCs. The best I could figure for a DAS was digitally automated system.
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poke smot!
cognitive consonance
Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 4,790
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: debianlinux]
#1329015 - 02/23/03 03:41 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Data Aquisition System. I must be being critiqued 
I have talked to Heruuka via. PM. I'm going to say that this topic is mainly about coming up with a system to control your devices, and be able to draw logical conclusions from statistical data taken by the DAS.
I've seen products like LabJack. I believe that requires you to write your own software.
I haven't seen any software out there that will control and log variables such as humidity, temperature, and particle concentrations, while still interfacing via. some standard means to your hardware.
The thing is that everyone has their own proprietary hardware, and the software that goes along with it. That creates a model where you are restricted to the limitations of the software and/or hardware for the system you choose. Finding that happy medium with good hardware and good software might be tricky.
This was the prime reason for designing my own system. I have the know-how to design and build such a device, and it fits perfectly into the use that I have for it. It really has some practicality, since the device is specifically designed to regulate conditions imperative to growing anything there's a hobby for.
I would think that there are such systems similar to mine out there, but judging by the design and manufacturing effort, they would likely be large-scale and designed to be sold to greenhouses and the like. Or, they would come in separate components (Eg, buy an air conditioning unit from one place; a data logger from another; etc). This is why I combined all of them into something sized down and intended for the hobbyist.
The only limiting factor is that not many people have the skill and knowledge about electronics needed to build this device. Also, I am very time limited among other reasons so I would prefer not to offer and build these myself. I suppose that I see better uses for my time. If there were a happy medium, where I could have the hardware manufactured, I believe we would have a good tool that is available to everyone.
One last comment, and I'll make it short since I'm essentially pimping my own device, but I've designed my software with these applications in mind. The thing is, the software isn't very useful to those other than myself since there is no production line or ready availability of the hardware to most average hobbyists.
I hope that for the sake of advancing the use of control systems in hobbies such as this, either a good combination of devices are found at a reasonable price, or I find a way to up production without sitting around all day soldering. That's as long as my design and software match up to Heruuka's standards
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Heruuka
member
Registered: 10/16/99
Posts: 312
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: poke smot!]
#1329108 - 02/23/03 04:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Poke, i have nothing but praise and admiration for your ability to design ANYTHING electrical let alone a PC interface. My electronic abilities are limited to following schematics and making distortion pedals! I think that i was misunderstood. From my experience, when people with such knowledge design such things for themselves, it is very difficult for other less/differently educated individuals to understand their creations. All i need is something that displays my variables in standard units like degrees f, or percentage humidity. I can't read raw sensor data, but its possible that you can, fuck, you can probably read the matrix code, and i don't want to get into a situation where i have to convert each reading by taking the integral of some crazy function in order to get something i can understand. My original intention of posting the above was merely to mention your project an create an open discussion on the subject but it seems, reading it now, that i did almost entirely direct this post at you. All, of this aside, i'd like encourage anyone who has the time and knowledge to construct poke's DAS to do so, and make sure you throw him some extra cash for designing this thing. I think we should all help, in our limited capacity to do so, to further this project so that everyone can enjoy the possibilities of cheap home automation. I personally will be attempting to get the DAS to work with a remote monitoring and control program i have that allows you control your environment over the internet.
Cudos to poke, and lets put our thinking caps on, i'll also be looking for a suitable cheap CO2 sensor for us oyster cultivators.
Any other shroomerites experienced in PCL, DAQ's, or just general data acquisition and control?
thanks for all the input
H
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hsalf
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: Heruuka]
#1329289 - 02/23/03 06:06 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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A great place to start would be 'Poptronics" magizine, the combination of 'Popular Electronics' and 'Electronice Now' magizines, now that they are both extinct. Brought to you in part by Gernsbeck/back publications. The forefounder(William H. Hearst) of Gernswhatever was one of the great contributors of the "drug" war. But there aren't mant other electronics mags out there that deliver what you will find there.
Home automation is extremely cheap. So is hooking it up to the net, via a rotating anon proxy server.
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zeronio
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: poke smot!]
#1329632 - 02/23/03 08:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I've seen products like LabJack. I believe that requires you to write your own software.
You get LabVIEW with LabJack - very powerful software. You can design a data acquisition and control system in a very short time: Build a PC-Based Data Acquisition System in Ten Minutes
Another good and free software is Visual: http://sourceforge.net/projects/visual/
but that would require writing your own Linux labjack driver. (I'll do that if I'll have some time)
I think LabJack is what I'm going to get. I don't have enough knowledge in electronics to build my own.
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zeronio
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: Heruuka]
#1329645 - 02/23/03 08:34 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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The price for the LabTechCONTROL software is much higher then LabJack (hardware and software for 99$).
No... fuck  they just increasted the price to 119$ (http://www.labjack.com/labjack_u12.html). I'm waiting too much...
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Heruuka
member
Registered: 10/16/99
Posts: 312
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: zeronio]
#1331610 - 02/24/03 01:43 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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not suggesting you do this, but you can get cracks for pretty much everything these days, including labtech software. The only reason why i'm so partial to LabTech CONTROL is the internet monitoring and control feature. The actual price tag for LAbTech CONTROL is something like $1600, but they give out a fully functional demo that cripples in 2 weeks.
My problem with LabJack is its limited number of outputs, i need 6 at least -it only has two.
Are there any other programs that allow for realtime data monitoring and control over the internet?
H
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hsalf
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: Heruuka]
#1331728 - 02/24/03 02:31 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I recall seeing something for x10 many moons ago. Shell out a few bucks for a Poptronics.
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shroomologist
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: hsalf]
#1332550 - 02/24/03 07:44 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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who wants labview 6.0
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zeronio
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: Heruuka]
#1332590 - 02/24/03 08:00 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
My problem with LabJack is its limited number of outputs, i need 6 at least -it only has two
It has 2 analog outputs and 20 digital IO. The digital outputs are used to control switches, analogs could be used for example to dim lights or control fan power. Why would you need more analog outputs?
Quote:
Are there any other programs that allow for realtime data monitoring and control over the internet?
I used to work with Intellution iFix (www.intellution.com) that has this capability, but it's too big & expensive for home use.
I'm currently playing with Visual. Take a look at this web control demo: http://visual.sourceforge.net/fake.php
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cyankid
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: zeronio]
#1335872 - 02/25/03 07:55 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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LabJack looks cool. How hard is it to control though? Looks like the software is just a bunch of runtimes. Poke Smot, build a box, PLEASE!!!!!!!!! I'll gladly pay you for it, or I'll have to buy a LabJack. Can anyone recommend decent probes that will work with LabJack? They want like 25 bucks for the temperature one. (bunk)
cyankid
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zeronio
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: cyankid]
#1335895 - 02/25/03 08:05 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
LabJack looks cool. How hard is it to control though? Looks like the software is just a bunch of runtimes.
I don't have it yet, but since you get LabVIEW and drivers with it, it should be easy. Take a look at LabVIEW link I gave above.
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cyankid
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: zeronio]
#1335906 - 02/25/03 08:09 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Somehow I doubt you get LabView (over a thousand dollars) with a LabJack. I am pretty consistently wrong though.
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Heruuka
member
Registered: 10/16/99
Posts: 312
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: cyankid]
#1337304 - 02/26/03 10:33 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Check out poke smot's plans , they're exceptionally detailed and thorough.
H
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hsalf
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: Heruuka]
#1338552 - 02/26/03 07:01 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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DigiKey rocks! They're like the wal-mart of electronics(hopefully w/o the sweatshops). About 2 years ago my friend picked up 10 variable capacitors(10-120pf) for about 54 bucks w/ s&h.
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poke smot!
cognitive consonance
Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 4,790
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: hsalf]
#1340787 - 02/27/03 02:36 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Thanks for all the enthusiasm... I'm toying with a new piece of software... It combines the interface and a web server. Throwing in a web server shouldn't be too hard.
Once the cash flow gets going and theres more time I'll try to keep a stock of the assembled systems or parts I need to build them. That way it won't take so long for someone to buy an assembled unit. I'll add the software to that, or sell it separately... but for cheap relative to other similar-in-function programs; also with the ability to control outlets.
With a labjack, I think it has 16 digital outputs. However, you have to build a relay driver for the relays you buy, and hook them up to outlets. It can be done, and it would probably be easier than assembling the complex design I made. However, if I can somehow mass-produce my devices or improve the electronic design, it might be something worth getting.
The software... I haven't used labjack's software, so I don't know how it compares. My goal was to code software that meets everyone's requirements, but at a much lower cost and with what I consider more specific functionality for the purpose of controlling a space of air.
The current software I have has detailed logging functionality, and a user-programmable relay control. I've been interested in coding internet apps in the past, so I should be able to throw in a web server into the control. I'm thinking, a stand-alone Win32 program that hosts a web server. The pages on this server are used to view the unit's status, program the appliances/relays, and view the logfiles.
My goal is to have very reliable software to control devices and monitor sensors. A major part of that reliability is a good web server, although I feel this won't be too hard of a challenge.
Is it software you would pay $35 for?
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cyankid
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 Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: poke smot!]
#1340990 - 02/27/03 04:27 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Sign me up! I looked over the schematics, I'm pretty confident I can build the box, I'm pretty handy with a soldering iron. The only thing I wouldn't be able to do is the software, that's all Greek to me. Let me know when you have anything available. I'll buy whatever version you may have now, and you can send me the addons later or whatnot. Right on Smot, you rock! :
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poke smot!
cognitive consonance
Registered: 01/08/03
Posts: 4,790
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: cyankid]
#1341123 - 02/27/03 05:42 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Theres a free test program I made... It lets you test the interface if you built it to my specs. Included is the source code, which is written in Visual Basic 6.
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Edited by SheetRooms (09/11/07 12:41 PM)
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debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: poke smot!]
#1341818 - 02/28/03 03:09 AM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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a linux port of the software would kick ass. i'm no programmer or I'd be on top of this. this would seriously decrease the hardware requirements of this rig. somehow I don't believe VB is cross-platform compatible. java would have worked better for this issue.
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Heruuka
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Registered: 10/16/99
Posts: 312
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: Heruuka]
#1350281 - 03/04/03 03:52 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I've nearly completed the construction of the logic portion of poke smots design, and now i'm just waiting for the digikey order. I think the possibility of using the device to monitor and control gas concentrations is slightly out of reach. The CO2 sensor modules are independently powered, too complex for me to build, and expensive. On the other hand, the timer function in pokes program is more than sufficient for my purposes, as i only intended to use the gas sensor to control air exchanges anyway.
Does anyone know of any cheap CO2 sensors? all i could find was the Texas Instruments 4GS series, and other similar devices. money. What other sensors are necessary for our hobby? i'm just trying to justify the eight sensor lines coming off my board.
I, personally, would love to see a template for those photo-fabrication PCB kits, or even pre-fab PCB boards (i don't know what i'm talking about), that would save a lot of work with the soldering iron. fuck my bum.
H
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debianlinux
Myconerd - DBK
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: Heruuka]
#1350351 - 03/04/03 04:21 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
What other sensors are necessary for our hobby? i'm just trying to justify the eight sensor lines coming off my board.
humidistat
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cyankid
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: Heruuka]
#1350762 - 03/04/03 08:11 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yeah, 8 inputs are kinda tough to justify. C02 sensors are expensive, no way around it. You might luck out and pull one out of some lab equipment off ebay or something. As for the PCB board, I don't think it's that hard to trace or whatever they call it. I remember my radio teacher doing it. Yeah, keep it going. Gonna start on mine soon.
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Heruuka
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: debianlinux]
#1352552 - 03/05/03 01:54 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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I thought the humidistat was a given? my bad.
Just as a side note, i'm not that skilled with electronic stuff so what i did was use the picture of pokes board with all the power wired up, and edited it in paint by connecting the pins according the schematic, giving me a wiring diagram from the back. Worked really well for me and eliminates reading errors while soldering.
-H
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poke smot!
cognitive consonance
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Posts: 4,790
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: cyankid]
#1352809 - 03/05/03 03:33 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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The reason I chose 8 inputs is because the analog to digital converter could accomodate that many. If they are there, why not hook em up?
Plus, one box could be used to control more than one setup. So you could have multiple temp and humidity sensors. Coupled with 8 outlets, I would see controlling 4 growspaces as feasable with this setup.
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ShaMan1988
ShaMaN InC.
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: debianlinux]
#1373526 - 03/13/03 06:40 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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all that you'd need would be a microcontroller with all the input data coming from the sensors within whatever environment the shrooms are growing in. the output would be a result based on the input and would control heating and humidifier ...etc. hell the microcontroller wouldn't even need to be hooked up to a computer all the time, just program an LCD into this design and you can read the statistics, just make the micro have everything automated at certain variable readings...
shaman
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zeronio
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Re: on the Topic of DAS's, PCL's, and all things Automation [Re: ShaMan1988]
#1374143 - 03/13/03 11:49 PM (10 years, 2 months ago) |
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Yes, that would be cool but writing software for microcontrollers isn't so trivial. The pokesmots solution is much simpler & cheaper.
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