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 zouden
Neuroscientist
 
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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 Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences  [Re: Poid]
#9758498 - 02/08/09 03:24 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
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Poid said: Science always seems to broadcast an arrogance that shows that it thinks it has figured everything all out. What's weird about this, though, is that it maintains this attitude even when things are proven wrong, or when new things are discovered! Science changes, whilst its arrogance remains! 
Source? How can science be arrogant, or maintain an attitude when science is an inanimate methodology? Perhaps you're referring to scientists; in that case which might you be referring to?
I am referring to the mainstream scientific community; it as a community of human beings who are scientists.
Then you should be clear that you're referring to people, not the concept of science itself. Your first post seemed to indicate otherwise.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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 Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: zouden]
#9758511 - 02/08/09 03:29 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
deCypher said:
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Poid said: Science always seems to broadcast an arrogance that shows that it thinks it has figured everything all out. What's weird about this, though, is that it maintains this attitude even when things are proven wrong, or when new things are discovered! Science changes, whilst its arrogance remains!
Source? How can science be arrogant, or maintain an attitude when science is an inanimate methodology? Perhaps you're referring to scientists; in that case which might you be referring to?
I am referring to the mainstream scientific community; it as a community of human beings who are scientists.
Then you should be clear that you're referring to people, not the concept of science itself. Your first post seemed to indicate otherwise.
I thought what I meant was self-evidently implied. Either way, the concept of science itself is a fruit of the human race, so what's the difference between me saying "science is arrogant" and me saying "scientists are arrogant"? 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: Poid]
#9758827 - 02/08/09 05:45 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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There's a world of difference. You're making the same mistake that I've heard many times here, which often sounds something like
"science didn't know X, therefore science is wrong!"
But what really should be said is "scientists didn't know X, therefore those scientists are wrong"
People can have theories that are incorrect, but science itself can't be wrong, by its very nature.
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: Poid]
#9760380 - 02/08/09 03:39 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
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deCypher said:
Honestly, that article was not very convincing. Of the three quotes included from scientists that were designed to show some sort of 'arrogance', none communicated an attitude of having figured everything out, or being rigid to change. If anything, I'd say that the layman is often too arrogant about his own understandings; we can certainly see the trouble this has caused with current issues such as intelligent design and evolution.
Quote:
Or is the general public just not able to reason as logically as the scientific community is able to?
Entirely depends. I would certainly trust a member of the scientific community more than I would a member of the general public.
I told you, that article doesn't serve well as credible evidence, per se, but consider that I found it in three seconds on Google; there were plenty more like it.
Please find this credible evidence and then rephrase for us. The burden of proof is on the claimant here.
Quote:
Poid said:
If anything, I'd say that the layman is often too arrogant about his own understandings; we can certainly see the trouble this has caused with current issues such as intelligent design and evolution.
And why shouldn't he be? As mentioned earlier in this thread, the layman basically doesn't have the ability to make grand scientific discoveries because he lacks the resources, be they physical or otherwise, to do so. So then, it's not surprising that, out of his situation, a little skepticism of the scientific community's findings is born.
The ability to make new discoveries does not equate to guaranteed skepticism about scientific findings. You might not be able to duplicate the latest research in particle physics, but you can certainly peruse a copy of the research in Nature, understand the technical results, and then rationally analyze their conclusions based on the data. The beauty of a peer-reviewed scientific journal is that other credible scientists have also perused the exact same data and scanned it closely for errors or falsification. If you stil remain skeptical at this point, you might as well remain skeptical that the Earth is round.
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Poid said:
Proponents of the I.D. theory (and opponents of the theory of evolution alike) aren't merely laymen; they have their own logical reasoning that they base their assertions on. Off of the top of my head, I can't remember any of their specific points, but my Philosophy 101 teacher in community college told me much on this topic; I don't remember the things he said, but he basically presented the class with their argument, which happened to be philosophically and logically sound.
Again, either present the argument so it can be debated or refrain from mentioning it, as it provides nothing useful to the discussion.
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Give me one common instance where the layman is arrogant about his own understandings.
Almost any P&S thread about evolution will serve.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6707773#Post6707773 for one.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: zouden]
#9761792 - 02/08/09 07:54 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
There's a world of difference. You're making the same mistake that I've heard many times here, which often sounds something like
"science didn't know X, therefore science is wrong!"
But what really should be said is "scientists didn't know X, therefore those scientists are wrong"
People can have theories that are incorrect, but science itself can't be wrong, by its very nature.
You seem to have a pretty solid definition of what science is, so would you care to explain it to us??
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: deCypher]
#9761978 - 02/08/09 08:29 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Please find this credible evidence and then rephrase for us. The burden of proof is on the claimant here.
Here are a few links to look into regarding this assertion that science displays and air of arrogance:
Controversies in Science
Blunders and Mistakes of Science
Since science, in a broad sense, is about the discovery of truth, it must necessarily maintain that all its findings are true, even if some them may actually not be. Therefore, this display of arrogance is inherent in its being; maybe even by its own definition, it must be arrogant.
The ability to make new discoveries does not equate to guaranteed skepticism about scientific findings. You might not be able to duplicate the latest research in particle physics, but you can certainly peruse a copy of the research in Nature, understand the technical results, and then rationally analyze their conclusions based on the data. The beauty of a peer-reviewed scientific journal is that other credible scientists have also perused the exact same data and scanned it closely for errors or falsification. If you stil remain skeptical at this point, you might as well remain skeptical that the Earth is round.
The ability to make new discoveries doesn't necessarily equate to guaranteed skepticism about scientific findings, but it sure does give the layman more of a reason to be skeptical. Peer-reviewed scientific journals are exhaustively long drawn and complex, so much so that without the proper educational training, the layman would probably not be able to understand it; not because he is unintelligent, but because he doesn't understand the structure of the journal, and therefore doesn't know how to read it, in a sense. I don't know where to find a peer-reviewed scientific journal online, but if you do and would like to introduce it to us as an example, it would be surely appreciated. 
This thread is not necessarily about my skepticism (of either science or religion), and personalisms are not allowed on this forum.
Again, either present the argument so it can be debated or refrain from mentioning it, as it provides nothing useful to the discussion.
Well, I have no prepared argument that I can present right now, but I would like to invite people to look over the Wikipedia articles on both the Creationism and Intelligent Design theory for themselves:
Wikipedia - Creationism
Wikipedia - Intelligent Design
Almost any P&S thread about evolution will serve.
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/6707773#Post6707773 for one.
Point taken.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (02/09/09 01:15 AM)
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Freedom
Will swim for food
Registered: 05/26/05
Posts: 5,024
Last seen: 1 month, 15 days
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: Poid]
#9762791 - 02/08/09 11:01 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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wow this is like meta science
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: Freedom]
#9763572 - 02/09/09 01:19 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
wow this is like meta science
Is that a portmanteau of metaphysics and science? 
If so, then could you explain how this is metascience? I don't understand how....
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: Poid]
#9763577 - 02/09/09 01:20 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said: I don't know where to find a peer-reviewed scientific journal online, but if you do and would like to introduce it to us as an example, it would be surely appreciated.
http://www.nature.com/
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: Poid]
#9763850 - 02/09/09 02:22 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Since science, in a broad sense, is about the discovery of truth, it must necessarily maintain that all its findings are true, even if some them may actually not be. Therefore, this display of arrogance is inherent in its being; maybe even by its own definition, it must be arrogant.
Not quite. Science maintains that all its findings are true until proven otherwise. I think that's the opposite of arrogance: science accepts that theories will eventually be replaced by better ones, so no theory is perfect.
Quote:
I don't know where to find a peer-reviewed scientific journal online, but if you do and would like to introduce it to us as an example, it would be surely appreciated.
Nearly all of them are online. A good way to search them is http://scholar.google.com
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: deCypher]
#9763947 - 02/09/09 02:43 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Poid said: I don't know where to find a peer-reviewed scientific journal online, but if you do and would like to introduce it to us as an example, it would be surely appreciated.
http://www.nature.com/
Does that website have only modern peer-reviewed scientific journals, or does it also contain older ones?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: zouden]
#9763966 - 02/09/09 02:47 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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"Not quite. Science maintains that all its findings are true until proven otherwise. I think that's the opposite of arrogance: science accepts that theories will eventually be replaced by better ones, so no theory is perfect."
But the way it maintains that all its findings are true until proven otherwise can sometimes be quite arrogant, in my honest opinion.
"Nearly all of them are online. A good way to search them is [url=http://scholar.google.com]http://scholar.google.com"
I shall look into that, thank you. 
--------------------
Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
Edited by Poid (02/09/09 05:51 AM)
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: Poid]
#9764202 - 02/09/09 04:22 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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>But that way it maintains that all its findings are true until proven otherwise can sometimes be quite arrogant, in my honest opinion.
Agreed, but that's just the weaknesses of the scientists themselves. Most believe that their particular theories are correct, of course, and sometimes this continues even when evidence to the contrary is uncovered. When this happens, those scientists are acting in an unscientific way. They're only human, after all.
>Does that website have only modern peer-reviewed scientific journals, or does it also contain older ones?
Nature.com is the website of Nature, the world's top peer-reviewed journal (alongside Science). Most journals have a website with some, if not all, of their back-catalogues available, but usually you need a subscription to read them. The Nature archive goes right back to issue 1, 1869.
[Actually, nature.com is the website of the Nature Publishing Group, so there are lots of other journals online there]
There are thousands of journals containing millions of articles. Google Scholar is a very good way of searching them.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: zouden]
#9764360 - 02/09/09 05:55 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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"But that way it maintains that all its findings are true until proven otherwise can sometimes be quite arrogant, in my honest opinion."
This quote was a typo, it should've said, "But the way...", not, "But that way...".
Before I go and search through those databases of peer-reviewed scientific journals, can I ask you if you've looked through any of them yourself? Did you find them at least somewhat hard to read, comprehend, or understand?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: Poid]
#9764389 - 02/09/09 06:28 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yes, they're quite hard to read, but I'm a professional scientist so I'm used to it. I'm actually contributing to a paper at the moment - we hope to submit it to the Journal of Neuroscience next month 
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: zouden]
#9764431 - 02/09/09 06:47 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Yes, they're quite hard to read, but I'm a professional scientist so I'm used to it. I'm actually contributing to a paper at the moment - we hope to submit it to the Journal of Neuroscience next month
Hope all goes well!
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: Poid]
#9764488 - 02/09/09 07:15 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks dude! I'm wondering if I'll post the article here - it's going to be a pretty major breakthrough in the study of neurotransmitters and depression. But posting the article would reveal my real name, which is a (very minor) concern I guess
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I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: zouden]
#9774872 - 02/11/09 12:16 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
zouden said:
Thanks dude! I'm wondering if I'll post the article here - it's going to be a pretty major breakthrough in the study of neurotransmitters and depression. But posting the article would reveal my real name, which is a (very minor) concern I guess
Just cut and paste it then, and leave out your name.
Your article would definitelty make for some great conversation/debating around here....
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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zouden
Neuroscientist
Registered: 11/12/07
Posts: 7,091
Loc: Australia
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: Poid]
#9776368 - 02/11/09 02:14 AM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah I think it would too. It's nearly done, probably submit it in a week and then just wait for the peer-review process to go back-and-forth. That usually takes 6 to 8 months.
--------------------
I know... that just the smallest
part of the world belongs to me
You know... I'm not a blind man
but truth is the hardest thing to see
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Science and Religion - their similarities and their differences [Re: zouden]
#9780633 - 02/11/09 10:01 PM (4 years, 4 months ago) |
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You should definitely post it (or at least portions of it) for all to see here at the Philosophy & Spirituality forum once it's been through peer-review process.
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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