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artizen
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odd smell, please advise

#9517591 - 12/30/08 01:42 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

yesterday i birthed 3 brf cakes, crumbled up soaked them a bit and placed them in small trays and covered w/ plastic to recover. temp was 82f. i pulled back the plastic a bit to check on them and the smell a bit vinegary, for lack of a better term. the chunks have a light fuzz on them at first i thought this was the mycelium growing back. can this procedure of recovery make a stink other than mushroomy or should i get them out of there?

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POWAtrippin
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: artizen]
#9517624 - 12/30/08 01:47 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Were there any holes in the plastic covering your trays? I don't think mushrooms ever smell like anything except mushrooms.

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artizen
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: POWAtrippin]
#9517756 - 12/30/08 02:14 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

no holes but the sides were loose. i just took the plastic off and shook a bit and they kind of smelled like mushrooms again. i sprayed with h2o2 solution and replaced the plastic with foil. i will go back and do the holes. i think i see what you mean, it just got a little stagnant. do you know what exactly causes that?

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POWAtrippin
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: artizen]
#9517890 - 12/30/08 02:36 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Well to make a short story long. There simply wasn't any way for the co2 to exchange for o2. There are two forms of respiration in fungal life. (or life for that matter) There is either aerobic respiration which includes oxygen and is very productive or anaerobic or alcoholic fermentation. When the myc uses up the available oxygen it will go anaerobic which is like I said a form of alcoholic fermentation. However worse than this is high co2 and stagnant air breeds infestation of contaminates.

I poke like 12 holes using a fork. Meaning a total of 12x4 holes for each stab of the fork for a 5 lb loaf aluminum disposable type tray.

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uncle_rico
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: artizen]
#9517896 - 12/30/08 02:37 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Vinegary smell means bacteria for me.

You are on the right track moving that stagnant air.

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artizen
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: uncle_rico]
#9517954 - 12/30/08 02:44 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

thanx guys, that makes perfect sense. sometime my hands move faster than my brain.

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xtofury
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: POWAtrippin]
#9517980 - 12/30/08 02:49 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

vinegar? Ok I might be a nub but I know for a fact that vinegar is on the list of things that YOU SHOULD NOT SMELL.
Chuck it. Start again. Vinegar is bad. If the cake smells like mushroom it's good, smell anything else, don't risk your health just start over and try making something good because vinegar would register to me as a clear sign of contamn and even if you don't see any contamninants you should still chuck it and start over.
It's possible you could save them but be careful. I would soak those cakes in bleach water, or 3% h2o2, better than chucking them out and might fix your problem, but I would also try crumbling them, then sprinkling a bit of substrate into there as well, give it a week to colonize things and then give it a smell; ensuring that if you try to do a rescue it is isolated.

Oh and I just did a search to see if I was giving bad advice, seems hippie gave similar advice.

Since we are both suggesting a bleach dip, I would go even further and say that crumbling the fuckers into a bleach dip might increase the chances that the contamn will stay away longer.

Either way a simple search of the forums will reveal that:
http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/760739#760739

Vinegar is a clear indicator of contaminants. Having a slight contamination isn't the end of the world, but it's up to you to decide if it's worth risking trying to deal with contamn or not.

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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: artizen]
#9517993 - 12/30/08 02:52 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Haha, no worries I made a tray last night using verm wbs and coffee and didn't even measure cause I drank way to much coffee... I think I put about 8 tbs to 2 qts verm 1 qt wbs spawn, we will see how it goes.

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xtofury
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: POWAtrippin]
#9518529 - 12/30/08 04:31 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

hmmm that didn't address the contamn though. Too late now. I would suggest misting with h202 every now and then, try to ensure that contamns stay limited to unexposed segments of the cake.

Ideally I would do a 20 minute atmospheric flush using o3 (ozone), just to keep airborned contamns down to a minimum and try to limit the spread of contamn and definitely try and keep it off the fruits. I would harvest by cutting a little extra off the stem just in case, and I would definitely do that smell test on a regular basis too, get it back to smelling like mushrooms or don't eat the fruit, don't trust it if it finishes with fruits that smell vinegary..... heck I would be skeptical of trusting it anyways.... even with the bleach treatment but hippie says it's ok and the bleach degrades away fast enough, but having a problem while there is fruit present could make conditions uncontrollable when it comes to making a safe final product. The reason why I say that is because it seems less likely such a treatment could effect potency and growth as having to do treatments throughout the whole process.

I would be careful with o3, h2o2 as well since it can burn biological material and damage your shrooms, it could potentially influence potency possibly by oxidization, and it can potentially influence growth as well. It could cause excessive aborts. Who knows, but I'm telling you that if I were you I'd rip that shit apart and do the bleach method on it to increase your odds of doing it safely.

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artizen
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: xtofury]
#9518761 - 12/30/08 05:20 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

the cakes were already crumbled, and i just birthed them last night. why are you talking about fruits. if it's contaminated i think i'll know long before fruiting, it's not even cased yet.

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Blutjager
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: artizen]
#9518776 - 12/30/08 05:25 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Id keep a very close eye on it and keep it away from anything else you have going

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artizen
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: Blutjager]
#9518870 - 12/30/08 05:45 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

yea i moved them out of the incubator which is all jars except for 1 casing i dunked, which brings me to another question about temps. i think it was called 'all of rr's notes on .....something, something'. it said that colonization temps should NOT be 84-86f as shown pretty much everywhere but closer to 75-80. it specifically noted that 86f in stamet's tmc was since changed in his gourmet cultivation book. it had a plethora of misnomers, longest post i ever came across, i just skimmed over it, no time.

it wasn't posted by rr though. and with all the contradictory info on here i try to only listen to a select few.

i'm gonna look for it again when i have more time, it looked like a heavy but interesting read.

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artizen
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: POWAtrippin]
#9518890 - 12/30/08 05:49 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

i just started a coffee experiment for s&g;

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/9515035/an/0/page/0

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xtofury
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: artizen]
#9518949 - 12/30/08 06:03 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

because the fruits will come, and have a chance of carrying contamns, and then someone'll ingest those fruits. That's why I mention it.....

But thinking about this, the vinegar smell is kinda suggestive to me, that it could possibly be a yeast infection? Can someone confirm this?
Did you catch a little bit of breaddy smell? Keeping in mind a breaddy smell seems like something that could be covered up quite a bit with a mushroom smell, and a mushroom smell could be overpowered by a vinegar smell... it's hard to tell but with poor quality yeast I've noticed that it ends up fermenting vinegary smelling as opposed to stinking of liquor like the EC-1118 (I think that's the right number I use) strain I buy at the wineshop.

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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: xtofury]
#9518998 - 12/30/08 06:13 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

A lot of things can use alcoholic fermentation as a source of energy. Yeast, myc, most fungus if my memory serves me. Which could explain the smell. I think the smell of the fermentation is more dependent on what is being fermented than anything.

Anaerobic Respiration is the same thing as alcoholic fermentation.

I know a tray can go anaerobic if the substrate layer is too deep and dense. Not to mention if it was covered in plastic and unable to breathe. However I haven't experienced this and don't know how if at all it smells.

So long as you keep it separate and it fruits I am pretty sure it will be fine.

If it starts smelling more and more and doesn't look as healthy chuck it.

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Blutjager
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: POWAtrippin]
#9519035 - 12/30/08 06:21 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I have had grow bags in the past that had a strange smell to them yet they looked OK,once they dried the smell went away,they were fine :thumbup:

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artizen
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: Blutjager]
#9519133 - 12/30/08 06:38 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

yeah i guess it more yeasty now that i think about it. i don't drink anymore but when i did i made a lot beer and wine, i remember now, vinegar was a poor description.

but what do you think about my temp question. only reason i ask is that my house stays between 67-70f and i'm running of room especially while isolating these at this stage. maintaining 84f or so is getting to be a pain.

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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: artizen]
#9519187 - 12/30/08 06:46 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

let your babies roam freely in that temp range. I have incubated in as low as 48 and saw growth anyways. The little bit they slow down isn't worth the electricity.

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artizen
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: POWAtrippin]
#9519265 - 12/30/08 06:59 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

really? 48f, isn't that like cold shocking?

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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: artizen]
#9519293 - 12/30/08 07:04 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

I didn't do it on purpose my house just got down that low when I was away and turned off the heaters. I came back and didn't notice much slowing of anything. Mushrooms were maturing that were babies when I had left and jars were almost ready to be spawned. Infact I should probably be spawning those jars right now but I have been a little lazy.

also I am not telling you to allow your temps to drop this low on purpose, I was merely accentuating that your temps are pretty much still in the "ideal" range.

Edited by GreedAndVanity (12/30/08 07:06 PM)

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artizen
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: POWAtrippin]
#9519356 - 12/30/08 07:16 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

GreedAndVanity said:
I

also I am not telling you to allow your temps to drop this low on purpose, I was merely accentuating that your temps are pretty much still in the "ideal" range.

that would be awesome but, what about temp drop being a pinning trigger if your colinizing at the same temp as fruiting does it slow down pinning? i'm waiting too long as it is for my pins now.

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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: artizen]
#9519390 - 12/30/08 07:23 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Sadly cold shocking cubensis isn't a good thing. At best it doesn't do anything but slow them down. If you search around you will see that cold shocking is outdated for cubensis. It is a tropical strain that enjoys warmer temps.

For cubensis the pinning triggers from greatest to least (I think) are 100% colonization, Fresh Air Exchange, Light, Humidity etc.

You can colonize at 65 and fruit at 85 and it will still be fine. Cubes want to fruit really bad, thats why many people grow them before trying edible species or wood lovers.

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artizen
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: POWAtrippin]
#9519564 - 12/30/08 07:53 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

i was just looking into it on some older threads that say the same thing. amazing how the misinformation get repeated more so, but i'm more disappointed in that i just got brand new copy of 'The Mushroom Cultivator' , which is supposed to THE book by THE mycologist hasn't been revised.i mean if i can't rely on the growth parameters in it then .....what the hell.

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xtofury
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: POWAtrippin]
#9520152 - 12/30/08 09:42 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

whoa that's a nice bit of info. I've been reading around and keep hearing about cold shock and dunking in COLD water. Now that you mention it, dunking in room temperature spring water would be better wouldn't it?

Ok no need to even look around on this one, that's just become part of my process because it makes so much damned sense. My experience growing mj says that cold shocking anything biological really isn't a smart idea.

Also when you mention 100% colonization, that would also imply a shortage of nutrients-- so in order to survive the cake pins and sends it's spores out to colonize a more nutrient rich location. This would also imply a much more vigorous pinset provided the cake has metabolized all of the nutes in it.

Sounds like a very similar mechanism to mj life cycles in that the plant has mechanisms specifically meant for survival when things get a little tough. Temp fluctuations can certainly be a trigger but I'd think the lack of nutes would do it. That and the air exchange means that pinning is worthwhile, because it's in the presence of enough air that it's spores can get carried away by it. Seems air exchange would be a great, genetically superior triggering trait that would work very well for the longevity of a fungus.

There's a reason for everything and thanks for the tip because there's more reasons that make sense not to cold shock than there seems there would be for cold shocking.

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Blutjager
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Re: odd smell, please advise

[Re: xtofury]
#9523662 - 12/31/08 02:55 PM (4 years, 5 months ago)

Ive see jars colonize in some pretty cold rooms,they just take longer

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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Mushroom Cultivation

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