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 OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 35,732
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 World's Foremost Atheist? 
#9501600 - 12/27/08 12:38 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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I heard this term used on during a Creationism discussion, but does it even make sense? Is there a non-school that people don't attend and don't graduate from to become an expert in a non-field? Is there a core book that I must not read and become proficient in it's non-teachings?
To borrow from one of my own sayings, can there be a world's best non-gardener?
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 andrewss
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I dunno, depends on what angle you are coming from... names that come to mind to me is Dawkins (never read him and dont want to), Hume, and Nietzsche
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
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 Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: andrewss]
#9501699 - 12/27/08 01:06 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Most well-read is perhaps what you are referring to, but there is no world-wide spokesman, no council or test or vote or competition to bestow such accord.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: andrewss]
#9501706 - 12/27/08 01:10 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
andrewss said:
names that come to mind to me is Dawkins (never read him and dont want to)
You're missing out. Very intelligent proponent of atheism.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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andrewss
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: deCypher]
#9502233 - 12/27/08 03:21 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
andrewss said:
names that come to mind to me is Dawkins (never read him and dont want to)
You're missing out. Very intelligent proponent of atheism.
I guess I shouldn't have said I dont want to, I just want to read other stuff before getting to him. I have had a trusted friend say he picked up The God Delusion and thought it was pretty poor style wise at least.
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DieCommie
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: andrewss]
#9502345 - 12/27/08 03:40 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Im not a big fan of Dawkins either. He is much more well known for his 'pop-science' than real science, and just comes off as a hater. His style is that of an instigator not an educator, and creates division and animosity. Dawkins is to the evolution movement what Jesse Jackson is to the black rights movement.
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Drakion
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: andrewss]
#9502412 - 12/27/08 03:51 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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I found it written well. If you are referring it to being too brash or stiff I would give that award to Christopher Hitchen's book God is Not Great.
Quote:
Most well-read is perhaps what you are referring to, but there is no world-wide spokesman, no council or test or vote or competition to bestow such accord.
Everything needn't be "officially" recognized in order for someone to be viewed as a leader in a given topic. The individual in question could be receiving the highest attendances at his/her conventions or they could have printed/sold the most books of their topic. Maybe it's something as simple as their name being always brought up even in their absence. Possibly people site their work as fact finder or inspiration.
There are millions of things the one could do that shows their excellence in leading a given field. You don't always need a medal, ribbon, trophy, or some other bauble to "prove" your worth.
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Choosing a religion is like playing the lotto, you can't get saved if you don't play! ~ Bill Maher
The efficiency of the truly national leader consists primarily in preventing the division of the attention of a people, and always in concentrating it on a single enemy. ~Adolf Hitler
10 years in an American prison right here folks, be careful!
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: DieCommie]
#9502607 - 12/27/08 04:18 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said: He is much more well known for his 'pop-science' than real science, and just comes off as a hater.
How so? The Blind Watchmaker and The Selfish Gene both were excellently crafted books, with a superb grasp of evolutionary science. The only hating I've seen from him has been a reaction to vehement mud-slinging by Creationists and other religious advocates who are offended by his attempt to defend the atheist stance.
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andrewss
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: deCypher]
#9502686 - 12/27/08 04:32 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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So what is the best book to read by him? I might try to give it a whirl, besides evolution is interesting. I just find it entertaining when scientists "philosophize," but I can't judge him without actually reading him... 
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: andrewss]
#9502708 - 12/27/08 04:37 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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I liked the Selfish Gene a lot, and the Blind Watchmaker is also good. I only read a bit of the God Delusion, but from what I saw it didn't seem nearly as interesting as his other works.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: DieCommie]
#9503805 - 12/27/08 08:42 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
His style is that of an instigator not an educator, and creates division and animosity.
That type of style would never fly here. 
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: Drakion]
#9503846 - 12/27/08 08:50 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
There are millions of things the one could do that shows their excellence in leading a given field.
Atheism is a field? Babies are born fully atheistic. There are no levels of achievement. No way to measure credulity until someone invents a believe-o-meter.
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daytripper23
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"Since 2003, the Atheist Alliance International has awarded a prize during its annual conference, honoring an outstanding atheist whose work has done most to raise public awareness of atheism during that year. It is known as the Richard Dawkins Award, in honor of Dawkins' own work."
I have not read any Dawkins, but to me, he represents modern atheism. I haven't yet met an atheist who didn't enjoy and support his work. I guess Ive never really asked though - any takers?
Anyways, the wiki:
I rather like the idea that God is Dead. Was Nietzsche an "atheist" though? I have only read here and there, but I've never seen it explicit, by which I would associate him with Dawkins and his atheists.
Also, does anyone know when the term atheism was first used, and who coined the phrase? This would be useful.
Edited by daytripper23 (12/28/08 12:17 AM)
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Freedom
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: daytripper23]
#9504919 - 12/28/08 02:00 AM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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whose really
like really really
free thinking anyway?
--
plus it's an ism
semantics aside
me and my buddies don't believe gardening exists
we figured it out on our own, but now we're schoolin each other 
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Drakion
Wo kommst du?
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
There are millions of things the one could do that shows their excellence in leading a given field.
Atheism is a field? Babies are born fully atheistic. There are no levels of achievement. No way to measure credulity until someone invents a believe-o-meter.
Anything you focus on can be pointed to as a field of study. I agree that babies are born atheistic and there are no "levels" of study. I already gave you many valid points on how one could judge someone as a leader.
I don't remember Malcolm-x or Dr. King Jr. getting an equal rights trophy or pioneering people's pin. Their actions warrant people's claims of their advanced achievements, not their current standings with some arbitrary panel of judges. I'm sure you wish to ask if equal rights can be even considered a field. During their time by people like yourself, no. But in today's world the peace committee implemented education in the field of racial relations. It doesn't change the works of the people in question, but only now makes their work "officially recognized". For all the good it does.
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Choosing a religion is like playing the lotto, you can't get saved if you don't play! ~ Bill Maher
The efficiency of the truly national leader consists primarily in preventing the division of the attention of a people, and always in concentrating it on a single enemy. ~Adolf Hitler
10 years in an American prison right here folks, be careful!
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Drakion
Wo kommst du?
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: Freedom]
#9505420 - 12/28/08 04:15 AM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Freedom said:
whose really
like really really
free thinking anyway?
Libertarians
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Choosing a religion is like playing the lotto, you can't get saved if you don't play! ~ Bill Maher
The efficiency of the truly national leader consists primarily in preventing the division of the attention of a people, and always in concentrating it on a single enemy. ~Adolf Hitler
10 years in an American prison right here folks, be careful!
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
Registered: 04/01/07
Posts: 35,732
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: Drakion]
#9505470 - 12/28/08 04:31 AM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Dude, nobody can not believe like I can!
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Jeffedelic
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It's not simply that Dawkins doesn't believe. He is very good at expressing his beliefs and defending them from irrationalists. Just as you could say St. Paul was one of the leading Christians without a faith-o-meter, you could say Dawkins is one of the leading Atheists without a disbelief-o-meter.
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"It's hard to stay mad, when there's so much beauty in the world." -Lester Burnham
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: Jeffedelic]
#9507782 - 12/28/08 05:08 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
you could say Dawkins is one of the leading Atheists without a disbelief-o-meter
No, I could not. Nor could I take anything seriously from a poster with a stuffed triceratops on their head.
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Jeffedelic
Fucked Up On Life
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Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
you could say Dawkins is one of the leading Atheists without a disbelief-o-meter
No, I could not. Nor could I take anything seriously from a poster with a stuffed triceratops on their head.
If you base credibility on a 75x75 pixel image of a lady wearing a dinosaur hat then your point is voided.
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"It's hard to stay mad, when there's so much beauty in the world." -Lester Burnham
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OrgoneConclusion
Rico Suave
Registered: 04/01/07
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: Jeffedelic]
#9507874 - 12/28/08 05:25 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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I can't hear you. 
*plugs ears with fingers*
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learningtofly
Ancient Aliens
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: andrewss]
#9509702 - 12/29/08 12:08 AM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
andrewss said:
I dunno, depends on what angle you are coming from... names that come to mind to me is Dawkins (never read him and dont want to), Hume, and Nietzsche
Nietzsche was athiesT?
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Drakion
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: Jeffedelic]
#9512217 - 12/29/08 02:58 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Jeffedelic said:
Quote:
OrgoneConclusion said:
Quote:
you could say Dawkins is one of the leading Atheists without a disbelief-o-meter
No, I could not. Nor could I take anything seriously from a poster with a stuffed triceratops on their head.
If you base credibility on a 75x75 pixel image of a lady wearing a dinosaur hat then your point is voided.
I initially based much of Young-Earth Christians credibility by a small picture of Jesus riding a dinosaur.
I guess it depends on how you present your silly pictures.
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Choosing a religion is like playing the lotto, you can't get saved if you don't play! ~ Bill Maher
The efficiency of the truly national leader consists primarily in preventing the division of the attention of a people, and always in concentrating it on a single enemy. ~Adolf Hitler
10 years in an American prison right here folks, be careful!
Edited by Drakion (12/29/08 02:59 PM)
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AlCapwn
ID Reset, take that subpoena
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Nietzsche most definitely was an atheist, unless you count the Ubermensch as a deity. I think he was the first big/important atheist, as not only did he deny god time and time again, he knew of what direction an atheist should go instead of just being neutral. That is what most of his philosophy in essence is, the theology of atheism, which I have seen very few people successfully do.
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Huuuuurrrrrr!
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daytripper23
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: AlCapwn]
#9518105 - 12/30/08 03:11 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Nietzsche was not espousing "isms" or worldviews, and I think you are possibly corrupting his philosophy by classifying him this way. So he was far from belivieving in god, but was arguably just as far from the league of dawkins.
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andrewss
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: daytripper23]
#9520341 - 12/30/08 10:11 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Its hard to sum up Nietzsche thats for sure, but I would say that he is an important "Atheist" but he surely respected the mysterious/fragile nature that is characteristic of our human perspective.
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daytripper23
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: andrewss]
#9521434 - 12/31/08 01:47 AM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just recently saw the movie the golden compass, which may or may not be relavent to this distinction. The author of the books that this movie is based on, is an affirmed atheist, but also regaurding his books, his artistic expression, he says they "are about killing god". I relate this to nietzsches own statement "god is dead".
I like these energetic statements and their implications.
Someone who is (claiming to be) unconcerned with god, and spends all his energy convincing others to likewise become this unconcerned, is not trustworthy in my opinion. Revolt is not who or what anybody can be, at least not as a concrete identity. The fate of a rebel who becomes attatched to his identity in any way, is to become a senseless tyrant. He excercises the same energy, only with a conservative agenda. (anyone seen the illusionist?) I'm not very well read in Nietzsche, but I have never seen him even use the word athiesm, and nobody has yet provided any evidence to the contrary.
It's funny and kind of sad on my part how accepting I can be when the word is surrounded with quotation marks though.
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andrewss
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: daytripper23]
#9521487 - 12/31/08 02:03 AM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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I do not want to take the time to look up specific references at the moment, but if you read a few of his books and think about the fact that by espousing "immoral" atheism in the late 19th century, he was a pretty original writer and no doubt influenced many in wester culture (some positively some not so much perhaps)... Nietzsche was no doubt an incredible commentator on western culture and in many ways very prophetic... I would say read The Gay Science I loved that book so much. Nietzsche at least has some literary style that is nice to read when compared to many dry philosophers. 
btw translations by Walter Kaufmann are choice.
So many people interpret and reference Nietzsche, sometimes it doesnt necessarily reflect Nietzsche totally...
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daytripper23
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: andrewss]
#9523144 - 12/31/08 01:02 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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This does not convince me. From what I have read, Nietzsche seemed to intentionally avoid this sort of language and classification. He sticks more to describing certain phenomena, and only occasionally describes an archetypal character. Of these he never described "the athiest", or anything close to this. For instance he describes The Dionysian, The Superman, or The Blonde Beast etc.
Take any one of these appeals, and they may have been rebellious toward god, but this was not described as their particular occupation. They were individualistic, not systematic. (Not isms) If he was truly espousing an atheistic philosophy, considering his overall message, wouldn't this of all things be explicit? I agree that there is a strong implicit atheism, but implication is not openly declared. I believe this was implied for specific reasons. It wasn't just his "style", this style is all he had to offer.
You could say that atheism is implied by many styles though.
Would you call Zen atheistic?
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daytripper23
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: daytripper23]
#9523610 - 12/31/08 02:45 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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"The world itself is the will to power - and nothing else! And you yourself are the will to power - and nothing else!"
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andrewss
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: daytripper23]
#9524126 - 12/31/08 04:56 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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What concept do you feel unconvinced?
Nietzsche is of course an atheist in some sense of the word... seems pretty plain to me. He didnt believe in any sort of God according to what I know. But yes he isnt quite like what comes to most of our minds when we think of super-scientific types that espouse faith in Darwinism and etc...
I am thinking about giving "The Selfish Gene" a whirl sometime soon just for the hell of it... so I can get a taste of current discussion on scientific atheism or whatever.
I truly think you should read "The Gay Science" it was soo good content and style wise IMO, but whatever I should keep my Nietzsche fanboi recommendations to myself here But yeah that book can help to sum up a lot of Nietzsche's thought.
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daytripper23
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: andrewss]
#9524847 - 12/31/08 07:46 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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First of all, if you think I somehow overlooked Nietzsche's denial of God, I have to wonder why you are even humoring me.
I haven't read the particular book that you did, but this does not lend itself is not evidence of his atheism. If its so plain, you should be able to easily cite proof.
Did you read his Geneology of Morals, or The Birth of Tragedy? This is where I am coming from.
My opinion is that "some sense of the word", is an oversimplification, and structurally contradictory to Nietzsche's existential philosophy. You might indulge in this in a truism, but I think that in doing so you are possibly cutting yourself off from his basic message.
What I mean by this, is there is a significant difference between his denial, and explicitly positing this (negation) as a systemic identity or agenda (an ism). I am aware of the implications that you mention, but as strong as these are, they are not prescribed as a (positive) agenda. His only "agenda" was the universal will to power.
Edited by daytripper23 (12/31/08 11:24 PM)
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andrewss
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: daytripper23]
#9529802 - 01/02/09 12:34 AM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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I do not believe we are really disagreeing, I am not sure what the problem is? I agree that the most correct interpretation of Nietzsche is that he is not an atheist like a perhaps a Dawkins is... Nietzsche's writings no doubt leave room for the existence of perhaps some sort of deity unintelligible to us and that our human intelligence is damn near godly perhaps... I dunno enough about him yet to really stake that many claims...
Check out this blog entry:
http://dailynietzsche.blogspot.com/2008/03/nietzsches-atheism.html
Im not sure I asserted much of what you seem to imply... but anyway I think we are on the same page.
I have read Genealogy of Morals, not The Birth of Tragedy though...
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Silversoul
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Technically, "World's Foremost Materialist" might be a better description, especially considering that Buddhists and Taoists do not worship a personal god, but are usually counted as atheists.
"Atheist" is also often used, especially when talking about something like "World's Foremost Atheist," to mean "anti-theist." I like to separate the two, as there are quite a few atheists who are not at all hostile to religion. My brother is an atheist, but has no qualms about going to church with my grandparents on Christmas eve. Most people on this forum who are widely thought of as atheists would be better described as anti-theists.
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Edited by Silversoul (01/02/09 01:38 AM)
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daytripper23
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: andrewss]
#9529966 - 01/02/09 01:20 AM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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No problem man. I have a somewhat abrasive method of comunication that seems to be exaggerated through the internet. Sometimes people think Im pissed off when I am not... And I spend most my energy trying to be inoffensive, imagine that.
Anyways, that blog is super relavent; lots of good points. Evolution is existential, and they seem to serve as the same basic springboard.
Btw did you think "the gay science" was very evolutionary?
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andrewss
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Re: World's Foremost Atheist? [Re: daytripper23]
#9531755 - 01/02/09 01:35 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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^ It deals with science and mentions Darwin some... that book has some really great sections. Some of the best are about epistemology and the orgin of consciousness IMO.
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Jesus loves you.
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