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 lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Registered: 12/16/04
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 What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? 
#9113200 - 10/22/08 01:13 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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If the average person understood our monetary system they would be outraged. The average person isn't outraged because they are probably incapable of understanding how the system works. Functionally innumerate.
If you think that government can create a sustainable monetary system that benefits everyone equally then you obviously don't understand humans.
If the current system were to fail, greedy self-serving people would create yet another greedy self-serving system. The next system will, again, be designed to transfer wealth and power to it's creators and not the average person. It is human nature.
How do you know the current system isn't a good compromise between functionality and parasitism?
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zorbman
Be Prepared
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,746
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Quote:
If the average person understood our monetary system they would be outraged. The average person isn't outraged because they are probably incapable of understanding how the system works.
Yes, that is a quote from John Maynard Keynes. Here is another:
"By this means government may secretly and unobserved, confiscate the wealth of the people, and not one man in a million will detect the theft."
I am just waking up to it myself and the more I look into it the more disturbed I become.
I feel like I have woken up inside the Matrix.
This system is very aptly described as a parasite. The problem is the parasite has overgrown the host.
I have to agree though that there is no system that cannot be corrupted over time by human beings. But some systems are better than others. I am in favor of backing our currency using a bi-metallic standard (gold/silver). I am under no illusions that this would be a panacea but I feel it would at least help prevent the wild swings in the economy which we see every few generations.
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Why does changing the party in power never change policy? Could it be that the views of both parties are essentially the same? - Ron Paul
Edited by zorbman (10/22/08 01:10 PM)
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: zorbman]
#9115885 - 10/22/08 04:07 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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'It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning.'
I believe that quote is attributed to Henry Ford.
What I am arguing is that such a revolution would start with good intentions, but end with creating yet another shitty monetary system for the masses, created to benefit the creators. How do we know that system won't be worse than the one we have now?
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 GnosticWarrior
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Quote:
adjust said:
What I am arguing is that such a revolution would start with good intentions, but end with creating yet another shitty monetary system for the masses, created to benefit the creators. How do we know that system won't be worse than the one we have now?
You're right, a new system could be worse. "Good Intentions" are the rationale most people convince themselves they are doing but its normally only self serving. Laws and regulations are not the real answer but actually the collective intentions of the participants determine what system will be manifested. One can always look for loopholes in laws. Now, is the intention based on doing good for the whole and just benefiting the self?
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Green_T
Getting to the chopper
Registered: 10/02/08
Posts: 4,024
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: GnosticWarrior]
#9118704 - 10/23/08 12:19 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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*Deleted*
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"I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man" - Thomas Jefferson
Legalize Meth | Drug War Victims
Their vial of acid, which is on the table over there, tastes vile because they're incompetent chemists.
Edited by Green_T (08/02/11 05:54 PM)
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Green_T]
#9119719 - 10/23/08 04:45 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm sure that the Bolsheviks never expected someone like Joseph Stalin to take power.
Well meaning political movements have a tendency to attract evil, self serving people to positions of power.
Imagine the person or people charged with creating a fair monetary system... the potential for abuse there would be irresistible.
Again, how do you know the next system won't be worse than the current one?
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Luddite
cognitive dissident
Registered: 03/23/06
Posts: 2,454
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Don't worry. Some lazy people encourage a revolution to get more welfare. It won't happen.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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I'm going to throw some ideas out there. I know that they have serious inherent flaws that would have to be overcome, but let's take them with a grain of salt, shall we? Feel free to tear em apart politely, simply comment, or add your own ideas.
Solutions to shortening the gap:
Raise minimum wage (helps if it's worldwide, possibly proportional to GDP per capita in each country)
Salary/earnings caps, savings/estate caps. Say earnings limited to 2-3 million a year. Total wealth cap, 1 or 2 hundred million. Issues: enforcement; total wealth may lead the richer families to simply move their holdings, although I suppose we could freeze some of their assets. The salary cap sounds a lot more realistic.
Rather than a cap, a direct redistributive tax, which gives rebateable tax credits to the poor/middle class.
There's more where that came from, I have to think.
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Discuss Politics
Edited by Ferris (10/23/08 06:45 PM)
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GnosticWarrior
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Ferris]
#9122517 - 10/23/08 07:36 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Even Warren Buffett thinks that the very wealth have some very favorable policies on their side.
So if they goal is create a more "equitable" system then I would suggest other ideas.
I don't like minimum wage and salary caps. Companies would move to more capitalist countries to operate. I know we have to have some regulation but it kind of goes against capitalism which I favor. And bcs I think it's the system most inline with natural laws, imho.
I believe taxes are the way to create incentives on what to do and not do. Do what you want, but be willing to pay the taxes.
I think something like not having any corporate taxes. Why, the corporations are the ones creating jobs that will increase personal income. And just tax the personal incomes. And then also not taxing any personal income below 250k, 500k or even a mill. If you are fortunate to be able to make more than that you get taxed a certain rate.
Then the area right now that to me should have the biggest increase is the estate tax. Right now, they only tax estates over 2 million. Increasing estate tax might discourage the wealthy to hoard and actually spend their money before they die. I believe this would trickle down to the little guy.
Well, lets my 2 cents.
Edited by GnosticWarrior (10/23/08 07:39 PM)
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: GnosticWarrior]
#9122579 - 10/23/08 07:45 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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How about this one: raise taxes on the poor and middle class, but start a large public housing agency. The recipients earn a spot by working for a small wage building other houses. A similar idea for food, farm for a spot, plus food credits, etc.
The house half would also lower the price of housing for the middle class in effect.
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Discuss Politics
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durian_2008
cornucopian eating an elephant
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Quote:
adjust said:
Functionally innumerate.
That's a cool play on words.
Quote:
adjust said:
How do you know the current system isn't a good compromise between functionality and parasitism?
In and of itself, I wasn't aware that fiat currency serves any particular function.
These paper tokens remind me of the favoritist, elementary school teacher, who capriciously issued merit points, to be exchanged for a prize.
Rather than teaching the participants to be worthy, this monetary system teaches them a false hope in submission.
You can't count on getting the credits reliably, and noone else is guaranteed to honor them.
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ClammyJoe
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Ferris]
#9123376 - 10/23/08 10:19 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
How about this one: raise taxes on the poor and middle class, but start a large public housing agency. The recipients earn a spot by working for a small wage building other houses. A similar idea for food, farm for a spot, plus food credits, etc.
The house half would also lower the price of housing for the middle class in effect.
Yeah right, and put all those real estate millionaires out of business, fuck that!
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durian_2008
cornucopian eating an elephant
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: ClammyJoe]
#9123434 - 10/23/08 10:27 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Eliminate all forms of credit, which is an elitist right to something for nothing.
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lIllIIIllIlIIlIlIIllIllIIl
Stranger
Registered: 12/16/04
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: durian_2008]
#9124058 - 10/24/08 12:11 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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How about just ban fractional reserve banking? Or would that make things worse? 
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ChuangTzu
starvingphysicist
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You guys should check out the FairTax, just because I was just talking about it and then read this thread.
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durian_2008
cornucopian eating an elephant
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: ChuangTzu]
#9127205 - 10/24/08 04:20 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
You guys should check out the FairTax, just because I was just talking about it and then read this thread.
A government which coins it's own money doesn't have to take it from the people, in what amounts to an unsolicited sale of municipal goods and services.
We could pay a "backdoor tax" through inflation, without risking the consequences of tax evasion.
Quote:
Eliminate all forms of credit, which is an elitist right to something for nothing.
Quote:
How about just ban fractional reserve banking? Or would that make things worse?
That's a form of credit, in that one piece of collateral might be borrowed against, more than a dozen times.
One banker, recently featured on Sid Roth and Jewish Voice, called it "PFA" (pulled from air) banking.
I believe that the work of his hands and feet should be enough for a man to make a socially-acceptable living. I believe that much harder work should enable me to earn much extra, but this would require me to have rights to public resources, which have been bought-up by big business and their creditors.
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Frost000
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Ferris]
#9134008 - 10/25/08 11:04 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
I'm going to throw some ideas out there. I know that they have serious inherent flaws that would have to be overcome, but let's take them with a grain of salt, shall we? Feel free to tear em apart politely, simply comment, or add your own ideas.
Solutions to shortening the gap:
Raise minimum wage (helps if it's worldwide, possibly proportional to GDP per capita in each country)
Salary/earnings caps, savings/estate caps. Say earnings limited to 2-3 million a year. Total wealth cap, 1 or 2 hundred million. Issues: enforcement; total wealth may lead the richer families to simply move their holdings, although I suppose we could freeze some of their assets. The salary cap sounds a lot more realistic.
Rather than a cap, a direct redistributive tax, which gives rebateable tax credits to the poor/middle class.
There's more where that came from, I have to think.
Are you freakin' kidding me? This is America! Sounds like Karl Marx has been reincarnated in you. We need less government control and more capitalism.
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Ferris
PsychedelicJourneyman
Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 11,529
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Frost000]
#9134053 - 10/25/08 11:13 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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And what you are describing is anarchy, or possibly feudalism, where we will most surely be the serfs. "Freedom" is a state where people have even chances at success. If I were to play a poker game with you where you had a thousand chips and I had 45 thousand chips, how do you think it would end?
Under the current system, I would have 45,650 at the end of the game, and you'd have to be my slave to earn back the 350. Under your system, I'd have all 46,000 and you'd still be my slave. Under my system, we'd both have a fairer chance in the game, and you might actually be able to get above 1000. I'd still be able to earn money, but I'd actually have to earn it.
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Discuss Politics
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durian_2008
cornucopian eating an elephant
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: Ferris]
#9136347 - 10/26/08 01:40 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ferris said:
...feudalism, where we will most surely be the serfs.
Both of these are sources of preferential credit / i.e. financial elitism:
1. the feudal lord
2. Marxist, centralized banking
Quote:
And what you are describing is anarchy...
You mean all men being equal and without management by an elite, who monopolize resources and redistribute them at will?
Quote:
"Freedom" is a state where people have even chances at success.
It's not my purpose in life to guarantee freedom for others, as a precondition of my own personal gain, much less when said, personal gain is precluded by a graduated income tax.
Freedom is independence, not dependence.
Many of you know I don't recommend fiat currencies. Still, why does a government, which coins it's own money, need money from me? They could simply print more money to cover their own expenses, without exposing the people to punishment.
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zorbman
Be Prepared
Registered: 06/04/04
Posts: 5,746
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Re: What makes you think this isn't a good monetary system? [Re: durian_2008]
#9136391 - 10/26/08 01:52 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
They could simply print more money to cover their own expenses, without exposing the people to punishment.
Wouldn't that result in inflation which amounts to a punishment for people saving?
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Why does changing the party in power never change policy? Could it be that the views of both parties are essentially the same? - Ron Paul
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