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 Cakes
intj freethinker
 
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 1,583
Loc: Arizonee
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 A rant on the nature of existence 
#9106992 - 10/21/08 12:24 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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I spewed this out just now. It's very possible that it's a dumb set of ideas as I generally do not do much thinking. Haha. Either way, enjoy!
Quote:
If the universe is infinite, it is implied that it cannot possibly exist. Why? With infinite size comes infinite possibilities. Due to the very nature of the concept of infinity, everything that can possibly happen has already happened.
This would mean that somewhere, there was a world exactly identical to ours. It means that there was another world where everything is the same as here, except that my name is Joe. It means that somewhere, there was a giant bunny rabbit floating around in space eating a giant carrot. Any possible configuration of atoms, within the laws of the universe, has existed.
It can then follow that at some point something has happened that destroyed the universe or disabled its functionality as a dynamic entity. Because of this, it is impossible for the universe to possibly exist in its current state. This implies that the idea of an infinite universe is flawed.
On the flip side, it is impossible for us to conceive of a universe that has finite boundaries. Due to the very nature of the concept of existence as we know it, we must exist in an infinite environment. The concept of finite boundaries to our universe can be visualized by picturing our universe inside a large box. What does that box exist in? What is outside the box? Another box? Ok, then what does that box exist in? It is easy to see the problem here.
So I've deduced here that we cannot exist either infinity, or finitely. This is an impossible situation.
So what does this mean?
Well it implies that the idea of infinity, the idea of existence, and many others, are flawed ideas. We must not be seeing the true nature of the universe. There is more to the picture than we can see, know, or understand at this current point in our existence. This is what brings about concepts like spirituality, and metaphysics. Really, spirituality is encompassed in metaphysics though.
The problem with metaphysics is that the ideas put forth on the subject are, by nature, not able to be tested for validity.
Essentially, what I am saying, is that we know nothing about the true nature of our own existence. Metaphysics implies the possibility of *anything*, which implies an infinite amount of possible "natures of existence".
When it becomes so clear how ignorant we are concerning the true nature of our existence, I can't help but wonder why life is taken so seriously.
Why do we get so involved in our own little world? Why do we create the ideas and concepts that we do? Why do we build this gigantic structure consisting of rules, expectations, desires, and attachments? Why should anyone continue to be involved with, and take part in this so carefully, intricately, arbitrarily designed society?
Why shouldn't everyone just sit around all day, laughing historically?
Well, this is where I'm stuck. I just can't get any further than that. I don't know what to think. Luckily for me, it's just one of many possible different perspectives and therefor I have no reason to worry.
Hah!
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Edited by Cakes (10/21/08 04:51 PM)
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maudlin
Stranger
Registered: 08/09/08
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence *DELETED* [Re: Cakes]
#9107022 - 10/21/08 12:29 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by maudlinReason for deletion: eh
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 DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: Cakes]
#9107046 - 10/21/08 12:32 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Some cool thoughts. Honestly I dont buy the first part... "With infinite size comes infinite possibilities." <- I dont see why that need be the case.
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BrainChemistry
Captain Obvious
Registered: 06/20/07
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: maudlin]
#9107065 - 10/21/08 12:35 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
When it becomes so clear how ignorant we are concerning the true nature of our existence, I can't help but wonder why life is taken so seriously.
Why do we get so involved in our own little world? Why do we create the ideas and concepts that we do? Why do we build this gigantic structure consisting of rules, expectations, desires, and attachments? Why should anyone continue to be involved with, and take part in this so carefully, intricately, arbitrarily designed society?
Because the brain, my friend, is a giant illusion generator.
As long as you have a brain, it will generate illusion after illusion. There is no choice but to fall into one and live it as if its real. So why fight it?
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Word to your mom.
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maudlin
Stranger
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence *DELETED* [Re: DieCommie]
#9107073 - 10/21/08 12:37 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by maudlinReason for deletion: eh
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demiu5
broccolilocks
Registered: 08/19/05
Posts: 38,158
Loc: the popcorn stadium
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: Cakes]
#9107088 - 10/21/08 12:39 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cakes said:
Quote:
If the universe is infinite, it is implied that it cannot possibly exist. Why? With infinite size comes infinite possibilities. Due to the vary nature of the concept of infinity, everything that can possibly happen has already happened.
there's something about basing all of following thoughts on one large, grandiose statement...
...when that statement has no real validity, it sort of invalidates everything that follows
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: demiu5]
#9107129 - 10/21/08 12:44 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
demius said:
there's something about basing all of following thoughts on one large, grandiose statement...
...that practically every religion on the books has managed to do.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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Crabmeat
Mycoholic
Registered: 06/24/08
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: demiu5]
#9107137 - 10/21/08 12:46 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,027
Loc: NY
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: Crabmeat]
#9107196 - 10/21/08 01:00 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Cool rant. I'm high as hell and it resonated with me well!
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
    
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Cakes
intj freethinker
Registered: 08/26/05
Posts: 1,583
Loc: Arizonee
Last seen: 2 months, 11 days
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: demiu5]
#9107235 - 10/21/08 01:06 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
demius said:
Quote:
Cakes said:
Quote:
If the universe is infinite, it is implied that it cannot possibly exist. Why? With infinite size comes infinite possibilities. Due to the vary nature of the concept of infinity, everything that can possibly happen has already happened.
there's something about basing all of following thoughts on one large, grandiose statement...
...when that statement has no real validity, it sort of invalidates everything that follows
I completely agree. I considered just stopping after I wrote that, but decided to go writing just to play around with the thought. I'm not in any way proposing this is a valid argument. 
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Edited by Cakes (10/21/08 01:17 AM)
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: maudlin]
#9107248 - 10/21/08 01:08 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
maudlin said:If the universe is infinite and collapsing and expanding out of nothing for infinity then everything would eventually happen through an infinite number of trials.
Here is an interesting fact that may (or may not) be related...
If you calculate out the random walk in 1 dimension... and let it go for an infinite amount of time there is a 100% chance it will cross the origin.
If you calculate out the random walk in 2 dimensions... and let it go for an infinite amount of time there is a 100% chance it will cross the origin.
If you calculate out the random walk in 3 dimensions... and let it go for an infinite amount of time there is only a 33% chance it will cross the origin. Thats right, it can go for an infinite amount of time and not ever cross the origin. In fact, that is what it is most likely to do... never cross the origin.
There is no reason to assume that in an infinite amount of time, all possibilities occur. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that in an infinite amount of time only some possibilities occur. It could even be that the same thing happens over and over as time goes to infinity.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: DieCommie]
#9107523 - 10/21/08 01:51 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
Quote:
maudlin said:If the universe is infinite and collapsing and expanding out of nothing for infinity then everything would eventually happen through an infinite number of trials.
Here is an interesting fact that may (or may not) be related...
If you calculate out the random walk in 1 dimension... and let it go for an infinite amount of time there is a 100% chance it will cross the origin.
If you calculate out the random walk in 2 dimensions... and let it go for an infinite amount of time there is a 100% chance it will cross the origin.
If you calculate out the random walk in 3 dimensions... and let it go for an infinite amount of time there is only a 33% chance it will cross the origin. Thats right, it can go for an infinite amount of time and not ever cross the origin. In fact, that is what it is most likely to do... never cross the origin.
There is no reason to assume that in an infinite amount of time, all possibilities occur. It is perfectly reasonable to assume that in an infinite amount of time only some possibilities occur. It could even be that the same thing happens over and over as time goes to infinity.
How does the probability generalize with respect to n dimensions?
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Cameron
Too Many Words
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: Cakes]
#9108228 - 10/21/08 04:49 AM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Think about it this way: empty space--or, the Universe without the "matter" we know to inhabit it--is our stage, without foreseeable boundaries and without explanation. We're likely never to discover the why behind it. It just is.
Now, if the idea of the Big Bang holds true, then the mass of particles which comprises the visible Universe began sort of like a balloon, sopping wet with red, blue, and yellow paint. As air fills the center and the plastic is pushed outwards, the colors meld together to form different shades of the visible spectrum, eventually executing a fixed number of patterns, or probabilities, before reaching its maximum potential and bursting, at which point it fails to exist as that thing--the inflated balloon.
In that case, we could be compared to a microscopic speck on the plastic surface of the balloon. The sphere is like a wall of probabilities, expanding and carrying out a certain number of patterns before its eventual exhaustion, either by stretching itself beyond the breaking point or expending its total supply of energy.
If the balloon finds itself on the stage of the Universe at some point, why must it fill the entire space of the area surrounding it? As far as mankind's best guesses provide, our mass of primordial stuff had a definable beginning and will one day experience an inevitable conclusion, just as the balloon.
So, it seems to me--given the Big Bang Theory, which has proven to fit our data more probably than anything else--that a fixed number of patterns will occur before the eventual death of our physical Universe, or the explosion of the balloon. I don't see why an infinite Universe would necessarily imply an infinite number of balloons.
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maudlin
Stranger
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence *DELETED* [Re: Cameron]
#9109472 - 10/21/08 02:13 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Post deleted by maudlinReason for deletion: eh
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xFrockx
Registered: 09/18/06
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: maudlin]
#9109537 - 10/21/08 02:28 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Somthing can be infinite without infinite possibilities if it is cyclical.
Perhaps our universe is perpetually repeating itself.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
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Loc: ohio
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: maudlin]
#9109563 - 10/21/08 02:32 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Some decent thoughts, keep thinking and writing for yourself at the very least
Quote:
Why shouldn't everyone just sit around all day, laughing historically?
Hysterically... anyway, yeah I see part of what you are saying, the comedy of existence, etc... but dont try to deprecate the game of existence too much, obviously we can observe how useful playing the game is in the moment, so try to go with the flow and dance a little, but yea existence is very tragically hilarious.
I get an impression from those last thoughts you had, being that I think perhaps you would enjoy a writer like Nietzsche... sometimes I feel trite to proclaim his name so much, but whatever, he has some of my favorite thoughts about this way of looking at life.
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Jesus loves you.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: andrewss]
#9109581 - 10/21/08 02:35 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Beware of syphilitics preaching morals.
--Saul Bellow speaking about Nietzsche.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,698
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 6 days, 23 hours
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: deCypher]
#9109598 - 10/21/08 02:37 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Jesus loves you.
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Nexion
Seeker
Registered: 10/07/08
Posts: 648
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: Cakes]
#9109624 - 10/21/08 02:42 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cakes said:
Due to the vary nature of the concept of infinity, everything that can possibly happen has already happened.
Don't really follow the logic here. If all possibilities are never ending how could they have all, already happened? There is still a never ending set of possibilities waiting to play out.
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Cameron
Too Many Words
Registered: 10/31/07
Posts: 4,437
Loc: Canada
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Re: A rant on the nature of existence [Re: maudlin]
#9109681 - 10/21/08 02:52 PM (4 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
maudlin said:
Hasn't it been shown that there is subatomic activity even in a total vacuum?
I'm not sure. "Total vacuum," to me, implies a complete lack of matter, or atoms, which makes me wonder how there could be sub-atomic activity present in a vacuum.
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