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 CheeWiz
Registered: 09/28/08
Posts: 276
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 Trichoderma is it all bad? 
#9099781 - 10/19/08 02:17 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Is all Trichoderma really bad? After just reading a post that Roger Rabbit replied to and cited some of Paul Stamets work. I find myself taken back a number of years age to a conversation what a friend from India who imports coir, husk fiber and cubes for sell to the growers here on the west coast. One of his competitors down the coast was selling a planting mix and making a big thing about it having Trichoderma in it. He explained to me that coir was made from the discarded coconut shells from coconut oil production and how they are left to rot and compost for a time before being ground and pressed into coir blocks. With nothing more than that being done to them and that it naturally has Trichoderma in it. Now we use coir to case with.
So is all Trichoderma bad or are there just types of it that mess with our grows?
Edited by CheeWiz (10/26/08 11:46 PM)
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 Grogan
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: CheeWiz]
#9099804 - 10/19/08 02:22 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Its only bad when its on ur grow, then it is VERY VERY BAD!!
It is after all called mean green.
It is very beneficial to plants though.
Also we don't case with coir.. coir is a substrate!
REPEAT coir is a substrate not casing material 
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"Maybe a cow occasionally ate a shroom, but it certainly wouldn't be such a potent shroom that the cow would be trippin balls. " LOL
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: Grogan]
#9099824 - 10/19/08 02:29 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Trichoderma, as do most fungi, breaks down manure and other organic elements in the soil and makes them available for plants. It's a beneficial organism in the soil.
Only when we practice sterile technique for indoor mushroom cultivation does trich become a contaminant. When we sterilize substrates and practice sterile technique, we're not growing mushrooms the 'natural' way, we're growing he best way we can with the technology we have available.
RR
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CheeWiz
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: Grogan]
#9099862 - 10/19/08 02:38 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Grogan said:
Also we don't case with coir.. coir is a substrate!
REPEAT coir is a substrate not casing material
Many of us have been using Ver./Coir casing for years now. I buy and use a coir thats specially treated with limestone that's targeted to the bulb growers (they like an alkaline and calcium rich media) just to use as a casing material.
Edited by CheeWiz (10/19/08 10:08 PM)
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Juke Adro
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: CheeWiz]
#9099909 - 10/19/08 02:46 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I used to use coir/verm as a casing also, it's not given me any problems whatsoever tho I use peat/verm now.
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Grogan
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: Juke Adro]
#9099942 - 10/19/08 02:52 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Not saying it will give problems, just saying that casing is a LOW nutrient moisture holding coating that helps create the perfect micro climate for primordial formation.
Key thing here LOW nutrient coir is HIGH nutrient which CAN lead to overlay.
Just trying to  things straight for newbs ;O
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"Maybe a cow occasionally ate a shroom, but it certainly wouldn't be such a potent shroom that the cow would be trippin balls. " LOL
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gianimon
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: Grogan]
#9100046 - 10/19/08 03:19 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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in processing of coir its heated when processed i believe. that should kind of pasturize the coir and maybe thats why its not a problem when using coir?
trichoderma is used in growing plants becuase its a parasitic fungi. it attacks other 'harmful' fungi in the soil protecting the roots. so in plants growing trich is good. but if you have no harmful fungi in soil and you add trich AND you add or soil has other beneficial fungi like mycorrihize(sp?) the trich will eat the beneficial fungi. trich will parasite most any fungi it finds.
SO. in the end its always suggested to wait until you get a fungal infection in soil before you apply trich. otherwise you may/will be killing the good fungals. it is rare to need to add trich in indoor soil for cannabis grows, etc. but in outdoor soils which use chemical fertilizers its used because the salt fertilziers make the soil less full of beneficial microbes, that allows 'bad' microbes to get a foot hold.
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Edited by gianimon (10/19/08 03:23 PM)
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CheeWiz
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: Grogan]
#9100074 - 10/19/08 03:30 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Coir and peat moss are both considered fairly inert and nether have very much nutrient value are used mostly for there water retaining ability. Coir has some advantages in thats PH is almost neutral and it can absorb and hold mineral's and a whole lot of water. Like with the treated coir I buy, its PH is about 8.2 (it should have been 6.5to7.5) if I remember right. The down side is those coconut shell have to weather and compost a fairly long time to get a good coir peat and a lot of what coming on the market now looks and feels more like used coffee grounds.
I've been using a mix of 5 parts coir to 4 parts Vermiculite with 1 part very fine silica sand (this stuff is almost a flour) which is pasteurized at 350f for an hour. I personally have never had a trich. in my casing. But I've had it on and at times in my substrate.
Edited by CheeWiz (10/20/08 12:17 AM)
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CheeWiz
Registered: 09/28/08
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: CheeWiz]
#9100146 - 10/19/08 03:57 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Thank you Gianimon for digressing us back to the original point of my post and condensing it down for me. So I'm going to take it that there is no good or bad Trich.. Just Trichoderma that can and will fuck with our grows.
Edited by CheeWiz (10/19/08 04:06 PM)
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misos
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: CheeWiz]
#9100181 - 10/19/08 04:07 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I don't think you are typically supposed to use coir in your casings.... It has too many nutrients to be used as a casing. Just use straight verm. Or bust out with a 50/50+. That's what I used when I first started. I don't use a casing currently. Although, I think I may this next time and see if there is a difference.
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"If I had a single wish, I would have every single human on this planet see this natural world the way I see it; the beauty in such simple things such as a fallen tree that is covered in moss and that has new trees growing from it. To some, fallen trees are ugly. But in reality, it is the circle of life at its finest. This is a beautiful world, its time that we recognize that before its all gone."
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: CheeWiz]
#9100379 - 10/19/08 05:08 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Hipster said:
Coir and peat moss are both considered fairly inert and nether have very much nutrient value are used mostly for there water retaining ability.
I agree totally. . .IF you're growing plants. If you're growing mushrooms, which is what this forum is all about, coir is every bit as nutritious as horse or cow manure. Vermiculite also has nutrients, so when you combine the two together, you get a very nutritious substrate mix.
If you use coir-verm as a 'casing layer', it usually fully colonizes and fruits wonderfully, but in reality what you've done is put a second layer of substrate on top. Since cubensis doesn't require casing, it fruits great from a coir-verm substrate.
Bricks of coir sold in pet shops have a pH in the neighborhood of 5 to 6, which makes it an excellent substrate choice. I hope this clears up the substrate-casing question.
RR
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DaturaYUM
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9100392 - 10/19/08 05:11 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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As long as trich is not on the actual mushrooms there isn't a real problem (in eating the mushrooms). It will ruin the amount of flushes you're able to get. & expect it to come back in the future.
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gianimon
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9100723 - 10/19/08 06:34 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
Hipster said:
Coir and peat moss are both considered fairly inert and nether have very much nutrient value are used mostly for there water retaining ability.
I agree totally. . .IF you're growing plants. If you're growing mushrooms, which is what this forum is all about, coir is every bit as nutritious as horse or cow manure. Vermiculite also has nutrients, so when you combine the two together, you get a very nutritious substrate mix.
RR
why do you say verm has nutrients for shrooms? i thought verm is inert as the other poster said above and verm doest have much nutrients at all. i read a thread here a little bit ago about verm and some dudes were talkin about it and showed it doesnt have much. somthin about it hold nutrients like a spong or some shit and when myc eats the verm the myc eats the nutrients the verm is holding. ill try to find the thread for you.
i dont think that link doesnt show that verm has nutrients except for a few words by the seller but no info. or did i miss something? i dont believe a seller too often without seeing why they can say somethin.
tnx bro! I LOVE THE MOVIES!!! AF bought them and let me borrow it. i will by them soon when i have extra $$$.
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Edited by gianimon (10/19/08 06:37 PM)
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Grogan
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: gianimon]
#9100807 - 10/19/08 06:53 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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If tric shows up in a grow its time to toss it out.. flushes will be weak, fruits will be wimpy.. not worth the 1,000,000,000's of spores it will add to your fruiting chamber helping tric outbreak more and more often.
Coir is VERY nutritious look at my pics if you don't believe me.. All 100% coir substrate..
Also ph is in the 5-6 range as RogerRabbit has said..
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"Maybe a cow occasionally ate a shroom, but it certainly wouldn't be such a potent shroom that the cow would be trippin balls. " LOL
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gianimon
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: Grogan]
#9100868 - 10/19/08 07:08 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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hey ya. i said verm is what i read about. i wasnt talking about coir. but id like to see some info all this nutrients coir holds too. i dont think a 100% coir grow will yeild anywhere the same as a 100% hpoo grow.
Agar said shrooms like best C:N about 20:1. nitrogen about 2 to 3, phosphorus about 0.5, potash about 2.
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Grogan
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: gianimon]
#9101019 - 10/19/08 07:59 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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It won't yield the same as Hpoo however its still a very very viable substrate.. I average 6-7 oz per coir brick.
Alot of people can't get Hpoo and weather it. (unless they buy off the net and some people don't want to do that)
So coir + coffee + gypsum + a oil like rapeseed, cottonseed, or soybean oil, can make coir almost as good as Hpoo.
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"Maybe a cow occasionally ate a shroom, but it certainly wouldn't be such a potent shroom that the cow would be trippin balls. " LOL
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: Grogan]
#9101232 - 10/19/08 08:54 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Agar said shrooms like best C:N about 20:1. nitrogen about 2 to 3, phosphorus about 0.5, potash about 2.
Mushrooms are NOT plants and the NPK numbers have about as much relevance as they would if you were feeding fertilizer to humans.
RR
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gianimon
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9101279 - 10/19/08 09:03 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Penn State also sited simialr numbers to Agar as does a few other research papers ive read. why do you think NPK isnt importnat? myc 'eats' the sub and takes in the nutrietns. all life uses npk, even microbes. the nitrogen content in sub is related to the protein utlization of myc which is why spawnmate and soybean, alfalfa, etc works well.
why do you think chicken poo works so well? from its N. and humans have a 'best' level of N P K and other nutrients too, of what we need each day.
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Edited by gianimon (10/19/08 09:44 PM)
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gianimon
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: gianimon]
#9101506 - 10/19/08 09:46 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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here it is. the info on verm from this thread. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8932422#8932422
Quote:
Hey Boomer,
THought I'd re-post this here for ya 
Vermiculite does have a small amount of inherent elements but they are not what I would consider useful for fungals or other organisms. They are secondary micro-nutrients which should already be supplied from h.poo or other nutrients rich substrate. Micro-nutrients from bulk sub such as manure are MUCH more bio-available then the same micro-nutrients from vermiculite. But, horticultural grade vermiculite does have a high CEC (around 80-150 me/100g) so it will hold nutrients (from the bulk sub) very well and release them to the mycelium/hyphae.
I really do think it's incorrect to claim vermiculite has nutrients that mushrooms utilize when using that claim as a reason to recommend vermiculite. Vermiculite has many benefits but inherent nutrients is not one of them IMVHO.
Vermiculite is essentially mica which went through exfoliation. Its nutrient content is essentially non-existent:
http://www.schundler.com/techverm.htm
TYPICAL CHEMICAL ANALYSIS
Element.......Percent by Weight
SiO2................38-46
AL2O3...............10-16
MgO.................16-35
CaO.................1-5
K2O.................1-6
Fe2O3...............6-13
TiO2................1-3
H2O.................8-16
Other...............0.2-1.2
HTH
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life is short - drink it up!~~~!
Edited by gianimon (10/19/08 09:47 PM)
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CheeWiz
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Re: Trichoderma is it all bad? [Re: RogerRabbit]
#9101556 - 10/19/08 09:59 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I've found the talk on coir to be en-lighting. I was introduced to coir almost ten years ago as a peat moss replacement and that is how a have thought of it. The person I buy from was left with a warehouse wall worth of this special coir for growing bulbs in when the buyer went out of business a few years back. But a good wind fall for me in that I was able to buy a dozen 18"x18"x6" coir blocks for two dollars each. I've been using it just as I would peat moss but with no need to add lime. When I've seen it used in substrate and I thought it was there to hold moister.
My grows are small and on the order of small roasting pans for my personal use. I never have had any trouble with it so I never have had a reason to question it. But I can see and understand RR point.
PS: I've just checked the literature on my friends coir and the PH runs from 5.5 to 6.5 and the calcium enriched (mine) 6.5 to 7.5 not the 8.2 I stated. That number comes from what I need to end up with for a potting mix for some alkaline loving plants. Sorry about that! Hipster
Edited by CheeWiz (10/26/08 11:55 PM)
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