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 DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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 Re: Currencyless Society  [Re: piracetam]
#9004991 - 09/29/08 10:39 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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You've retreated from debating the past to complaining about the future. I accept your defeat.
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 Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: piracetam]
#9005009 - 09/29/08 10:42 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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So the state of the world is better than it's ever been at the present time, but won't continue?
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,311
Loc: TX 
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: DieCommie]
#9005041 - 09/29/08 10:48 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
You've retreated from debating the past to complaining about the future. I accept your defeat.
defeat? didn't realize this was a formal debate.
I said that it was relative to claim "this is the best the world has ever been", and indeed it is. you think third-world countries would agree they're better off now? you really believe World Bank has lived up to their promises, and there are no disparities in resource allocation?
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"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: piracetam]
#9005049 - 09/29/08 10:49 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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There will never be equality of resources. Never.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,311
Loc: TX
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: Redstorm]
#9005054 - 09/29/08 10:50 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
So the state of the world is better than it's ever been at the present time, but won't continue?
like I said, you can't buy clean air and species.
progress is only progressive if it can sustain itself with given resources. it's called being adaptive. unfortunately, a lot of businesses don't see it that way (yet, hopefully)
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"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,311
Loc: TX
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: Redstorm]
#9005059 - 09/29/08 10:51 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Redstorm said:
There will never be equality of resources. Never.
that's why the shit will eventually hit the fan. nature works on balance, and doesn't give a crap about money.
it's idealistic as shit, but I favor a sort of bartering system which champions creativity. obviously, politics would come into play, and struggle for resources would be inevitable as well.
but seriously...fuck credit, and fuck the banking system. it's evident that they're really not out to benefit us
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"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson
Edited by piracetam (09/29/08 11:00 PM)
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,441
Loc: Next Level
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: piracetam]
#9005488 - 09/29/08 11:55 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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how exactly does a barter system fix anything? a few people will still horde resources, while masses are "slave" to provide a productive harvest. I comend the will to reduce greed but i don't see how barter systems change anything, but make it harder for me to get what i want.
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,311
Loc: TX
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
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it eliminates bankers as middlemen ripping you off, you have more of a say on market prices, and you are forced to use resourcefulness to produce, rather than rely on convenience.
like I said, it's idealistic, and obviously wouldn't go very well with the current status quo
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"It only takes 20 years for a liberal to become a conservative without changing a single idea.
In an evolving universe, who stands still moves backwards." ~R.A. Wilson
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,441
Loc: Next Level
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: piracetam]
#9005690 - 09/30/08 12:40 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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try buying a house, or car, or starting a business by putting up all the money up front. moneylending is a service. ill lend you money if you give a small portion of your profits. eliminate its practice and that would leave the vast majority of us comparitively homeless(or in huts), immobile and with out the means to provide for ourselves, which basically puts us back to the times of fuedalism.
if you don't like banks.... don't use them.
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DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: piracetam]
#9005693 - 09/30/08 12:40 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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I would oppose it tooth and nail as it would render all my skills and job opportunities obsolete.
I was a pizza driver for 7 years or so... so then I would get paid in pizzas? Yea right. After work I would have to go trade my pizzas for gas and rent? lol I was a server for a bit too... that wouldnt work much either. I can only imagine the dumb trinkets I would get for tips.
Now I do research and tutor in the univeristy. How exactly would the barter system fund research? Apply for a grant of food and other commodities from the NSF?  Then somehow trade them for scientific apparatus and assistants? I guess as a tutor my students could give me goods for my services... but it would be damn hard to live like that.
barter system = fail
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hamandcheese
Sandwich
Registered: 06/02/08
Posts: 12,441
Loc: Next Level
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: DieCommie]
#9005724 - 09/30/08 12:45 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
barter system = fail
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piracetam
bioanalytical chemist
Registered: 05/03/08
Posts: 4,311
Loc: TX
Last seen: 1 day, 2 hours
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: DieCommie]
#9005747 - 09/30/08 12:54 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
I would oppose it tooth and nail as it would render all my skills and job opportunities obsolete.
I was a pizza driver for 7 years or so... so then I would get paid in pizzas? Yea right. After work I would have to go trade my pizzas for gas and rent? lol I was a server for a bit too... that wouldnt work much either. I can only imagine the dumb trinkets I would get for tips.
Now I do research and tutor in the univeristy. How exactly would the barter system fund research? Apply for a grant of food and other commodities from the NSF? Then somehow trade them for scientific apparatus and assistants? I guess as a tutor my students could give me goods for my services... but it would be damn hard to live like that.
barter system = fail
haha
it's funny when you think in terms of money; yeah, it's sort of (well, quite) flawed.
though I still think non-taxable virtual money beats bank notes.
http://www.rawilson.com/papers.html
the guys was sort of a futurist, like Alvin Toffler.
Edited by piracetam (09/30/08 01:18 AM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 16,563
Loc: Americas
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: DieCommie]
#9006426 - 09/30/08 03:44 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
DieCommie said:
You've retreated from debating the past to complaining about the future. I accept your defeat.
Best thing I've read
Ever
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meams
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 17,410
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: piracetam]
#9006966 - 09/30/08 09:18 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
piracetam said:
but seriously...fuck credit, and fuck the banking system. it's evident that they're really not out to benefit us
yeah... it's not like credit & financial markets have provided businesses with the means to expand and grow for the past few generations, leading to our superpower status and benefiting all of society through dividends, corporate philanthropy, and the availability of cheaper goods (cheaper since they invested in more efficient production techniques made possible by CREDIT)
and to address your other point:
China is still acting like it's in the IR because it IS. Countries cannot go from 0 manufacturing to GREEN manufacturing overnight - they need first to get their production facility going at low cost (so they can compete), and then only once they have made profits and are certain they can remain viable are they able to make the switch over to more environmentally-friendly production techniques.
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Wiccan_Seeker
gold foil hat admin
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 33,529
Loc: Virgo Supercluster (or b...
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: piracetam]
#9007430 - 09/30/08 12:25 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
Barter system
This is a gold krugerrand. It is approximately 1 1/4 inch across and about 1/8 inch thick. Slips right into your shirt pocket.
These are three goats. They need land to graze which I don't have, they need to drink, they need care.
Both are the same value. They store approximately the same wealth (as long as the goats dont get old, sick or die on me.
Now suppose I want THIS:
Which of the above two payment options would I be most welcome with in the bicycle store?
Goats go BEEEEHH because they smell BEEEEHH.
If the bicycle salesman has a good day he sells ten bikes. What would he rather come home with, a herd of 30 hungry goats or a roll of K-rands the size of a flashlight battery?
The Dollar and Euro are backed by nothing. Much better would be a currency backed by something. The gold coin trumps that though, because it isn't just backed by something, it is backed by its inherent value. You're actually *holding* the value itself, just like with the goats. Without the smell. And the vet and food bills. *rants a long list of goat drawbacks*
Edited by Wiccan_Seeker (09/30/08 12:32 PM)
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johnm214
Registered: 05/31/07
Posts: 16,563
Loc: Americas
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Could I hear more about the drawbacks of goats?
I think your being pessimistic.
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meams
Blessed
Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 17,410
Loc: In a Tree
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: johnm214]
#9008884 - 09/30/08 05:32 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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WC you clearly forgot to factor in the added variable that goats produce milk - thus increasing their inherent value and providing an ever-expanding role of goats in our everyday lives.
This analysis still further omits the existence of goats as a form of entertainment for children ages 4-12. The reduced expenditures on barbie dolls, matchbox cars, and power wheels would far surpass any downside to caring for a goat. Think of how popular your children will be when they fly past their peers on PowerWheels while galloping freely on a goat!
So, clearly, our analysis is not complete
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Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: meams]
#9010326 - 09/30/08 10:03 PM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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acromonium
Stranger
Registered: 09/29/08
Posts: 100
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: Currencyless Society [Re: Redstorm]
#9012330 - 10/01/08 09:56 AM (4 years, 7 months ago) |
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If you can't eliminate the need for money, you can severely lessen it with this idea www.earthship.org
Water and Electricity fall from the sky
Poop is fertilizer
Please God let me make it to New Mexico
Edited by acromonium (10/01/08 09:57 AM)
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Monjiller
Curious Observer
Registered: 07/04/07
Posts: 44
Loc: Home
Last seen: 13 days, 22 hours
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Quote:
Wiccan_Seeker said:
Quote:
Banks create money. But they create it as debt. Meaning all money created needs to be paid back - with interest - and this payback money too is created as debt.
Sounds like someone has watched the video Money as Debt recently. It is a great video, a bit long, but super educational.
The only way I see a currency-less society will exist is if we go back to the barter system. Even then, the goods being bartered serve as a form of currency.
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