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 ScavengerType
 
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 9 days, 18 hours
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 Re: Additives to the horse manure  [Re: ScavengerType]
#8864050 - 09/02/08 03:15 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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and btw man if trich will grow at as high as 7.5 it grows slower and is thus weaker and more easily overcome by encroaching mycilium. Your quote says it all.
Quote:
Both the tip extension rate and the branching frequency varied with the pH and had maximum values around pH 4.5. The time of spore germination was dependent on the pH, but within the used pH-range (2.2–7.6), no significant effect of pH on the fraction of viable spores was observed.
Translation: higher PH slowed germination (and presumably colonization), but produced the same amount of spores in the end.
If you see green it's already to late but when these microbes are doing battle in your sub while they are colonizers the timing of germination and colonization are the most relevant therefore PH is still a relevant factor in fighting bacteria and presumably this is why people recommend using gypsum right to the beginning in the grain soak.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 9 days, 18 hours
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
#8864123 - 09/02/08 03:57 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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On reading the entire article Catalfomo, P.; Tyler, V. E. (1964): "The Production of Psilocybin in Submerged Culture by Psilocybe cubensis", Lloydia 27(1), 53-63.
I've found the PH measurements are post-growth and not reflective of anything to do with what the PH was before growth in fact there was probibly no PH difference because it was from the same medium mixture. There is no data in this paper that conclusively says that PH is a factor in growth since the growth changed the PH in every example and did so differently because every single one grew differently on the same medium. So the table 2 shows that mycilium that grows well appears to acidify the substrate. This should be a ringing endorsement for using gypsum. Tables 3 and 4 don't really show us anything since nobody is doing their grows in petri dishes and the nutrient changes appear to be more of a factor in the outcome than PH or suggested ph since no real PH data is recorded for the mediums at their beginning.
The tables in the study are pretty useless but this study did show two interesting proofs I'd like to point out:
1: If you look at the graph (Ignoring the irrelevant PH data) you'll see that it shows that growth continues to occur after psilocybin production has stopped this is after the bulk of fruiting during it's slowing phase. So this scientifically proves the idea that it's best to pick before the veil tears potency wise. Not that this fact was widely contested or anything.
2: At the end they do a experiment with tryptophan and proved that it has no effect on potency. None of the data is shown but it says that there was no effect on psylocybin production.
Overall I don't see the point of any of the studies other than the tryptophan one and the almost accidental indication that psilocybin production stops before fruiting. It's a pretty useless paper.
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"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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quickpick
Stranger
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
#8864648 - 09/02/08 09:39 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hey ST,
Quote:
Quote:
byST:
Gypsum breaks down when the PH becomes too low
Quote:
by QP:
No it doesn't as far as I understand. But it will cause other trouble I listed.
"Gypsum contains both calcium carbonate and sulfur, thus it tends to keep the pH near neutral, preventing swings as the metabolites try to push the pH down." -RR
"Actually, gypsum contains calcium which raises pH, and sulfur which lowers pH, resulting in a buffer that prevents wild swings in either direction." -RR
So I was miss-citing the information in that it's already quite broken down but it does prevent PH swings.
Sorry to inform you but RR is totally wrong on the pH aspect. It does not raise pH at all. Please do a bit of research on your own instead of quoting RR all the time. No offense intended to you or RR but I've only been here two weeks and I've shown how some info he has posted is not accurate. THis is nothing against RR or you, RR seems like a nice guy with a lot of knowledge, but, he's wrong in this case as are you.
Gypsum does offer Ca and S but in fairly slow action and should be applied when the pH of the media is ALREADY over pH of 5.5, but gypsum does not effect pH UNLESS the media has a high level a soluble aluminum.
The idea RR is probably using is the gypsum will effect the CEC of the media, thus increasing the pH. But in this case it doesn't work like that, the gypsum (ala Ca) does not automatically mean it will change pH. And S from gypsum doesn't effect (lower) pH either except in situations which have nothing to do with growing mushrooms.
Gypsum is not useful when one wants to raise the Ca in media with a pH of 5.5 or lower....that's why I'm thinking of using MetaNaturals organic Calcium, it's immediately available to the fungals and microbes.
Please, don't tell me gypsum will affect pH without research to back up your claims, scientific research papers, proven science or other very reliable sources are what I'm interested in, not RR's opinion in this case. (thou his opinion is very welcome in every other case, I value his knowledge and input very much!)
And just so I can prove my point past the info I ALREADY posted from the Master Gardener's Program here more info:
"Agricultural lime and gyspum compared:" (PDF)
http://cesonoma.ucdavis.edu/hortic/pdf/ag_lime_gypsum.pdf
Quote:
Will not neutralize acid soils or effectively raise pH.
"The Value of Gypsum"
George Rehm, Extension Soil Scientist
University of Minnesota Extension
http://www.extension.umn.edu/cropEnews/2002/02MNCN07.htm
Quote:
A Liming Material?
There has been some suggestion that the application of gypsum will raise the pH of acid soils. Although gypsum, like lime, contains calcium, the calcium is not responsible for an increase in pH where soils are limed. It is true that the use of gypsum increases pH when applied to acid soils in the southwestern United States. That increase is due to complex reactions with soluble aluminum. Soluble aluminum is certainly not a concern in Minnesota soils. Therefore, we can't justify the application of gypsum as a liming material.
Will Gypsum Use Reduce Soil pH?
Soybean growers who have problems with iron deficiency chlorosis in western Minnesota would like to discover a soil amendment that would lower pH. Some have suggested that the application of gypsum will do this. Gypsum, however, is a neutral salt. When it dissolves (dissociates) in soil, there is no change in soil pH.
Gypsum is used to reclaim saline or saline/alkali soils in the western United States. With these soils, there is an excessive amount of sodium (Na) that must be removed. This reclamation requires:
1. Application of gypsum at very high rates (hundreds of pounds per acre)
2. Large amounts of irrigation water
3. Drainage to remove this water from the soil system.
The reclamation process can be described as follows: much more hard data on that page
"Changing soil pH" (PDF)
Paul Vossen
University of California
Cooperative Extension
http://cesonoma.ucdavis.edu/hortic/pdf/changing_soil_ph.pdf
Quote:
Common Amendment Reactions in Soil
- Gypsum (calcium sulfate) + sodic soil -> calcium soil + sodium sulfate (leachable with water)
--Sodium sulfate is then leached out fo the soil by rainfall or heavy irrigations. The removal of sodium lowers the sodium permeability hazard allowing for soil aggregation and improved drainage. Gypsum does not change pH nor improve drainage in non-sodic situations. Gypsum is used to add calcium to soils such as serpentine with very high or toxic Mg levels.
- Sulfure (elemental) + oxygen + water -> sulfuric acid + soil calcium -> gypsum
--Gypsum then acts as above. Sulfur and sulfuric acid also lower pH.
- Lime (calcium or magnesium carbonat) + water -> calcium soil + OH
--Lime neutralizes the (acidity) - H+ (super-script +) ion concentration and adds calcium to soil
"Garden Science" (PDF)
http://www.northpacific.com/dept/gypsum/pdf/gardenscience.pdf
Quote:
Gypsum and pH In most situations gypsum has little effect on soil pH. Use limestone to raise pH of acid soils, and elemental sulfur to lower pH of alkaline soils. However, if soils is alkaline because of high bicarbonate ions, or if irrigation waters contains bicarbonate, the soluble calcium in gypsum reacts with the bicarbonate to form insoluble calcium carbonate. The pH of the soil is decreased to the rage of 7.5 to 7.8 when bicarbonate is reduced. Also (as noted in "Gypsum as fertilizer"), limestone does not move through the soil to lower depths. Gypsum is the best way to supply calcium to soil and roots below cultivation depth.
"BOB LIPPERT'S FREQUENTLY ASKED QUESTIONS REGARDING SOIL TESTING, PLANT ANALYSIS AND FERTILIZERS"
Department of Entomology, Soils and Plant Sciences
Clemson University Extension Service, South Carolina, U.S.A.
http://hubcap.clemson.edu/~blpprt/bobweb/BOBWEB12.HTM
Quote:
The Story About Gypsum
Gypsum (CaSO4) is considered both a soil ammendment and a source of plant nutrients.
When soils have been exposed to too much sodium (usually in the coastal areas), two concerns arise. One is that sodium on the exchange sites of clays and organic matter tends to make them disperse and the soil becomes impermeable as the clays clog up the pore spaces. This is not really a problem in the coastal region where the soils are very sandy and have essentially no clay. The second concern with sodium is that excessive amounts in the soil can exclude the uptake of other nutrients such as calci um and magnesium. Too much uptake of sodium by a plant can cause toxicity problems usually manifest by necrosis of leaf edges. An application of gypsum to the soil will help to exclude the uptake of so much sodium by the roots just by the fact that the calcium ions will vastly out-number the sodium ions.
Often when the soil pH tests less than 5.8, the calcium level in the soil will also test only "low" or "medium". There are instances, however, when the soil pH value will be adequate (between 5.8 and 6.5) yet the calcium level will still test less tha n the optimum "high". In this case, the addition of lime to provide the needed calcium will raise the pH value too high and likely cause other problems such as a micronutrient deficiency. Gypsum can be added to the soil to supply the needed calcium with out altering the soil pH value. The alternative method of adding more calcium without raising the pH value is to use fertilizers which contain calcium.
Gypsum also is a good source of sulfur but this is only a side benefit from its use. In the rare instances where sulfur is needed in the soil, most people will add elemental sulfur or use a fertilizer with some form of sulfur in it.
There are no easily accessible guidelines regarding the application rate of gypsum in a homeowner situation. It is sparingly soluble and so it is nearly impossible to over-apply. In the Western part of the United States, many crops grow just fine in soils that have naturally occurring, undissolved accumulations of gypsum throughout the soil. Generally, a homeowner can just sprinkle a fine layer over the soil surface and work it in. A general application rate is 100 to 150 pounds per 1,000 square feet. Gypsum is a must for tomato growers in our South Carolina to prevent "blossom end rot". In an agricultural situation, enough gypsum should be applied to supply 100 pounds of calcium per acre when the soil test report does not call for lime but the calcium level tests "medium" or "low".
If you still want to believe gypsum raises pH that's fine, just don't post it here, it's not true...
Edited by quickpick (09/02/08 10:06 AM)
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quickpick
Stranger
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
#8864661 - 09/02/08 09:48 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hey ST,
Quote:
Translation: higher PH slowed germination (and presumably colonization), but produced the same amount of spores in the end.
Yes. And that means a pH of 6 or 7 does not preclude trichoderma.
Quote:
If you see green it's already to late but when these microbes are doing battle in your sub while they are colonizers the timing of germination and colonization are the most relevant therefore PH is still a relevant factor in fighting bacteria and presumably this is why people recommend using gypsum right to the beginning in the grain soak.
Well, read my info on gypsum as to pH. And as far as I know gypsum is added to grain to keep them from clumping together, not to effect pH.
And I am using AEM (Activated Effective Microorganisms) which will colonize the medium in in one day, three at the most. But as where talking about limited quantities of sub the colonization is really fast, faster then p.cube and faster then harmful microbes which are not being directly feed and placed into sub in the counts of over millions of units 
HTH 
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quickpick
Stranger
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: ScavengerType]
#8864673 - 09/02/08 09:57 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
On reading the entire article Catalfomo, P.; Tyler, V. E. (1964): "The Production of Psilocybin in Submerged Culture by Psilocybe cubensis", Lloydia 27(1), 53-63.
I've found the PH measurements are post-growth and not reflective of anything to do with what the PH was before growth in fact there was probibly no PH difference because it was from the same medium mixture. There is no data in this paper that conclusively says that PH is a factor in growth since the growth changed the PH in every example and did so differently because every single one grew differently on the same medium. So the table 2 shows that mycilium that grows well appears to acidify the substrate. This should be a ringing endorsement for using gypsum. Tables 3 and 4 don't really show us anything since nobody is doing their grows in petri dishes and the nutrient changes appear to be more of a factor in the outcome than PH or suggested ph since no real PH data is recorded for the mediums at their beginning.
The tables in the study are pretty useless but this study did show two interesting proofs I'd like to point out:
1: If you look at the graph (Ignoring the irrelevant PH data) you'll see that it shows that growth continues to occur after psilocybin production has stopped this is after the bulk of fruiting during it's slowing phase. So this scientifically proves the idea that it's best to pick before the veil tears potency wise. Not that this fact was widely contested or anything.
2: At the end they do a experiment with tryptophan and proved that it has no effect on potency. None of the data is shown but it says that there was no effect on psylocybin production.
Overall I don't see the point of any of the studies other than the tryptophan one and the almost accidental indication that psilocybin production stops before fruiting. It's a pretty useless paper.
lol are you serious? Did you miss ALL the info in that study about optimal pH?
I just think you don't want to have to admit you may have been wrong. There's nothing wrong with being wrong, hell I was wrong the other day and RR jumped all over me for it...but that's was fine with me and I'm glad he did, now I know the info I posted was incorrect and I'll not post again, or for that matter apply it to my own grows...
As to your summation of the study IMO you are totally off base and you don't understand the info, nor it's relation to us. If your happy with your 'take' of the study that's great, just don't post like you did, pretending to understand the info presented and then dismissing it with an air of authority.
RR definitely has a different take of the study then you do, RR and I are of a similar mind about that study as far as I can tell...
I don't mean to post like a jerk but it's annoying when you don't rely on science when trying to refute science. It seems like you are now trying to find things to disprove without having any success at all.
I don't want to be 'at' each other, you seem like a good person, and I think I'm a good person so lets all get along even if we disagree?
Edited by quickpick (09/02/08 09:59 AM)
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
#8864823 - 09/02/08 11:09 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quickpick.
You have NEVER grown mushrooms before, just joined here, and are pretending to know all about gypsum, pH, substrates and casing layers when you actually don't have a fucking clue.
I have seen you time and time again tell people absolutely horrible information based on searches you've done for growing PLANTS in soil, not mushroom mycelium in substrates.
I have asked you in polite terms to avoid posting bad information based on internet searches and 20 to 30 year old books, many of which have been discredited.
EVERY commercial mushroom farm uses gypsum in substrates. For you to come in here and tell people that what I, Paul Stamets, and many other professional growers have been recommending for many years and which grower after grower has tried and found to increase yields, as well as the health and vigor of their mushroom crops is just plain stupid.
Get some experience under your belt or shut the fuck up.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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UncleMike
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8864872 - 09/02/08 11:22 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quickpick.
You have NEVER grown mushrooms before, just joined here, and are pretending to know all about gypsum, pH, substrates and casing layers when you actually don't have a fucking clue.
I have seen you time and time again tell people absolutely horrible information based on searches you've done for growing PLANTS in soil, not mushroom mycelium in substrates.
I have asked you in polite terms to avoid posting bad information based on internet searches and 20 to 30 year old books, many of which have been discredited.
EVERY commercial mushroom farm uses gypsum in substrates. For you to come in here and tell people that what I, Paul Stamets, and many other professional growers have been recommending for many years and which grower after grower has tried and found to increase yields, as well as the health and vigor of their mushroom crops is just plain stupid.
Get some experience under your belt or shut the fuck up.
RR
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Live each day like it will be your last, tomorrow my never come.
SporeSmart
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: UncleMike]
#8864946 - 09/02/08 11:38 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Back on topic:
Gypsum will definitely increase yields when added to horse manure, or ANY other substrate for that matter. Calcium and sulfur are both nutrients used in mushroom fruitbody formation. In addition, gypsum prevents the wild swings in pH we often see as the mushroom mycelium colonizes a substrate. Use it at 5% to 10% by volume to the dry horse manure. Vermiculite can also be added at up to 50% by volume. That isn't a typo. 50%. Vermiculite has not only nutrients fungi love, but also provides a texture and other properties not yet fully understood that increase yields and pinsets. Plant growers will tell you vermiculite has no nutrients(which they're also wrong about), but for fungi, vermiculite provides an excellent supplement.
As I've said many times, mushrooms will grow better on a complex substrate, meaning a substrate composed of many different ingredients. The lists of what mushrooms will grow on are nearly endless, but suffice it to say you can mix them all together and get better results than any one by itself. Good luck to all and I apologize for the off-topic distraction.
RR
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Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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rev 766
gum flappin' scallywag
Registered: 04/08/08
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: UncleMike]
#8864973 - 09/02/08 11:45 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
UncleMike said:
Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quickpick.
You have NEVER grown mushrooms before, just joined here, and are pretending to know all about gypsum, pH, substrates and casing layers when you actually don't have a fucking clue.
I have seen you time and time again tell people absolutely horrible information based on searches you've done for growing PLANTS in soil, not mushroom mycelium in substrates.
I have asked you in polite terms to avoid posting bad information based on internet searches and 20 to 30 year old books, many of which have been discredited.
EVERY commercial mushroom farm uses gypsum in substrates. For you to come in here and tell people that what I, Paul Stamets, and many other professional growers have been recommending for many years and which grower after grower has tried and found to increase yields, as well as the health and vigor of their mushroom crops is just plain stupid.
Get some experience under your belt or shut the fuck up.
RR
that's what i was thinking. i wish i would have seen this an hour ago, it's pointless telling someone they are a dumbfuck after RR does. he's pretty effective at bashing that last nail into the coffin.
either way, quickpick, don't knock it until you try it. also, your plan for using plants and whatever to supply calcium won't work if they aren't composted. i don't remember what you suggested, but it seemed alot more complicated than dumping in some gypsum.
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praise "bob"
did you mean shmooed-R.I.P.
"drought besets the mind, decay besets the man"-me
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boomer q
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8864986 - 09/02/08 11:48 AM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Vermiculite can also be added at up to 50% by volume. That isn't a typo. 50%. Vermiculite has not only nutrients fungi love, but also provides a texture and other properties not yet fully understood that increase yields and pinsets. Plant growers will tell you vermiculite has no nutrients(which they're also wrong about), but for fungi, vermiculite provides an excellent supplement.
really? wow, i was under the impression that it had no nutrients.... what beneficial nutrients does it have?
ill have to try some substrate with more verm in it and compare it to the 5% of ive been using, thanks RR 
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I got bags of funk and i sell em by the tons
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quickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: boomer q]
#8866320 - 09/02/08 04:50 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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ST,
AH!!!
This maybe were the confusion lies, in RR's understanding of what gypsum really is:
Quote:
"Gypsum contains both calcium carbonate and sulfur, thus it tends to keep the pH near neutral, preventing swings as the metabolites try to push the pH down." -RR
Gypsum = Calcium Sulfate (CaSO4), NOT calcium carbonate (which is c.lime, etc) I surely hope the whole industry doesn't believe gypsum is calcium carbonate!
Here's the facts on gypsum:
- It is calcium sulfate not calcium carbonate
- If applied to media under a pH of 5.5 it can (and probably will in med-high applications in media with high aluminum) release media's aluminum. Now, most likely what is happening in what RR is describing regarding increased yield from gypsum is that most sub's don't have enough inherent aluminum to have an adverse effect via the gypsum. But that doesn't mean you should add it. The increased yield is most likely due to the additional Ca and S from the gypsum. So my point stands, it may be good to use immediately available Ca from an organic source like MetaNaturals, or use of another source of powder Ca like 'marl', etc. By adding gypsum your only asking for trouble in a media with a pH under 5.5.
- Gypsum will not affect pH by raising it and can actually lower pH over the long term, it doesn't not 'balance' pH or anything like that.
I still stand by my statement that I'd like to have not hard feelings ST, you were mislead. And RR didn't mean to mislead you I'm sure of that.
Edited by quickpick (09/03/08 11:35 AM)
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quickpick
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: rev 766]
#8866323 - 09/02/08 04:50 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hey rev 766,
You may want to read my post regarding what gypsum really is (hint: it's calcium sulfate). But thanks for calling me a:
Quote:
it's pointless telling someone they are a dumbfuck after RR does. he's pretty effective at bashing that last nail into the coffin.
To RogerRabbit: Is he going to be banned too? I have not one time used profanity towards another member and you threaten to ban me? You, ST, rev776 and some other guy I don't remember have all cursed at me and called me names. All I have ever done is disprove what is considered 'fact', which it obviously was not. Once I get bashed sure, I get defensive, who wouldn't? But I've NEVER CALLED ANYONE A NAME OR CURSED AT THEM...so why ban me????
Oh, and BTW rev776, the coffin wasn't nailed too tight, lol!
Quote:
by rev 776:
i don't remember what you suggested, but it seemed alot more complicated than dumping in some gypsum.
Uh no. I suggested the possible inclusion of MetaNaturals Organic calcium which also has humic acid (beneficial to fungals). THis is a liquid and is as easy to apply as adding to to the water you moisten the sub with...IMO that's easier then applying gypsum...or just use 'fine' c.lime powder for Ca if you also want to raise you media pH. For additional Ca "marl" is an option, though I don't remember it's Mg content off hand.
HTH
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quickpick
Stranger
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: boomer q]
#8866324 - 09/02/08 04:50 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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RR... 
Quote:
Quickpick.
You have NEVER grown mushrooms before, just joined here, and are pretending to know all about gypsum, pH, substrates and casing layers when you actually don't have a fucking clue.
I have seen you time and time again tell people absolutely horrible information based on searches you've done for growing PLANTS in soil, not mushroom mycelium in substrates.
I have asked you in polite terms to avoid posting bad information based on internet searches and 20 to 30 year old books, many of which have been discredited.
EVERY commercial mushroom farm uses gypsum in substrates. For you to come in here and tell people that what I, Paul Stamets, and many other professional growers have been recommending for many years and which grower after grower has tried and found to increase yields, as well as the health and vigor of their mushroom crops is just plain stupid.
Get some experience under your belt or shut the fuck up.
RR, how the can you say that with out any hard data and proof? Your opinion of "well, they seem to be growing better" without scientific proof or at least evidence to back up your claims is just that, your opinion.
And once again, I've grown p.cube before, the first time I followed the PF tek to for shits and giggles. Now I have a different purpose for growing p.cube. And it wouldn't matter if I've never grown them anyway, that doesn't change the fact gypsum does not effect pH and releases inherent aluminum within media under a pH of 5.5!
I am not pretending shit, I know what I'm talking about and I provide proof and references. It is a fact what I've written about gypsum regarding pH, are you trying to say what I've written is not a scientific fact?
I am not some kid that has not graduated and studied environmental biology, with post graduate (I'm over 30 years old) research in microbiology and organic horticulture and soil science. What I'm writing in regards to gypsum has nothing to do with plants vs mushrooms! All it has to do with is soil science and chemistry, which is equally applicable to mushroom or plant growth.
The fact is you don't know what your talking about, that's the problem and you refuse to accept you can be wrong or the whole industry could be wrong...I've in fact proven wrong a whole body of knowledge before, one much more throughly studied than what you've done, and I had my results reviewed by biologists and microbiologists...so don't tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. If you care to know it's about culturing and isolating wild PnSB.
And for the love of god, stop saying I only quote old books, you know you lie when you say that. I have provided you tons of current research and studies...hell in my previous post I included four links to proven science which is not old.
I have time and time again provided scientific proof and you argue and say I'm not correct? Why don't you show me proof? You have not once shown me proof of anything you claim.
And you claim gypsum increases yield, show me the proof. There are way too many variables in a sub to claim the addition of gypsum is what is offering increased yield. I'm not saying it isn't, just you can't claim it as fact without proof...I bet it's like I said, it's quite possibly the Ca and S from gypsum which is helping but that's only because the inherent aluminum in subs is low...but that doesn't mean it's the best source for Ca or S, hell "marl" is FAR superior to gypsum for Ca and it has not negative side effects and you can get it mircornized
And any scientist would not balk at providing proof or research. They would be happy to provide it. I'm starting to think you don't carry out experiments with the scientific method. I think you may just add things and then look to see the results on the mushrooms. If so that is not how you learn what is really happening, which requires science, tests and peer review.
I'm not trying to prove YOU wrong and that's were you trip yourself up, you have such a huge ego you think I'm out to disprove YOU. I just want to insure the most accurate and scientific info is presented. This means I will step on some toes, like yours, which I try to do nicely until I'm insulted (which ST did and did you have done on MANY occasions, why aren't you banning yourself? )
Your big problem is you don't think I, a lowly newbie can be right and your wrong. You are wrong and have been wrong and will be wrong...as will I be...the difference between us is I want to know when I'm wrong and you don't. How else could you ignore the science of why and how gypsum can be added and what gypsum really is?
It is too bad people think I'm trying to attack them or disprove them when I'm only trying to get out the correct info based on science.
I think it seems like I arguing with people because I'm not agreeing with them. In EVERY case (yours included) I was very nice for the first few response...oh and I suppose ST's use of the following is fine in your opinion? (which he used BEFORE I got annoyed)
Quote:
Edit: Bitch Please!
...or your attack:
Quote:
Get some experience under your belt or shut the fuck up.
RR
I could say very much the same to the guy who preaches to know all yet thinks gypsum is calcium carbonate, that's basic stuff man...if you don't know that I have to think your other knowledge is 'suspect', sorry but that's how I see it...
And for the last time: It doesn't matter if I've grown them or not, that won't change scientific fact.
Oh, and it'd be real nice if you don't delete this post, I know other ppl feel the way I do about you, and about me. I've been told as much in a few PM's, etc...you're not loved man, you're respected and held in awe (rightfully so, I agree you are to be respected and you've done a lot), yet you're word is not fact, sorry to burst your bubble.
Later
Edited by quickpick (09/02/08 04:55 PM)
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HazeyRoms
The Pro Sonn
Registered: 07/19/08
Posts: 539
Loc: Wisconsin
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: RogerRabbit]
#8866404 - 09/02/08 05:05 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quickpick.
You have NEVER grown mushrooms before, just joined here, and are pretending to know all about gypsum, pH, substrates and casing layers when you actually don't have a fucking clue.
I have seen you time and time again tell people absolutely horrible information based on searches you've done for growing PLANTS in soil, not mushroom mycelium in substrates.
I have asked you in polite terms to avoid posting bad information based on internet searches and 20 to 30 year old books, many of which have been discredited.
EVERY commercial mushroom farm uses gypsum in substrates. For you to come in here and tell people that what I, Paul Stamets, and many other professional growers have been recommending for many years and which grower after grower has tried and found to increase yields, as well as the health and vigor of their mushroom crops is just plain stupid.
Get some experience under your belt or shut the fuck up.
RR
-He put .38 chrome to the dome and let you know that you aren't very familiar with the correct study of mycology.
-Quickpick, buy his video, watch it, then learn.
-I feel for RR, newbie boobies shouldn't spread BS all over the forums. Especially since you(Quickpick) have never cultivated even a portabello, nor rieshi, nor button, nor ps. samuiensis, nor ps. cubensis, nor pan.'s, nor oyster, nor many other specimen I cannot even go through to list. When you have achieved such levels like RR, Workman, Me && many others.
--------------------
-Sonn, Hazey here. And I'm bacc. Anyone in Wisconsin, PM me. Unity my nillas/niggas.
-"5 Nike duffle bags??? How much does all that weigh?? - Just 30 pounds Bruhh, relax my nilla, it don't stink like weed so we're all good."-(Penis Envy Moments)-
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rev 766
gum flappin' scallywag
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 885
Last seen: 6 months, 14 days
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: shroomizzy]
#8866407 - 09/02/08 05:05 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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listen, i'm a fucking asshole. don't worry about profanity, we're all dumbfucks from time to time. however, i never said gypsum wasn't calcium sulphate, and i never claimed it would adjust ph. the point of it isn't to fix ph, its to add calcium and sulpher AND IT WORKS. it increases yield.
you are coming on here arguing false information. but you're not just pointing out that it is not a ph buffer, but you are adding more false information by saying that it is useless, and in fact HARMFUL to mycelium! do a side by side grow of an isolate with and without gypsum and see what happens.
i'm not trying to be a dick, but you can't spread lies and expect no one to call you out. and if you really didn't know, then you should be thankful you have the opportunity to learn something.
good luck
--------------------
praise "bob"
did you mean shmooed-R.I.P.
"drought besets the mind, decay besets the man"-me
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quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: HazeyRoms]
#8866458 - 09/02/08 05:13 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hey HR,
Quote:
-He put .38 chrome to the dome and let you know that you aren't very familiar with the correct study of mycology.
Yes he did and I proved him to be incorrect on every point. Did you not see where he thinks gypsum is calcium carbonate?
Quote:
-Quickpick, buy his video, watch it, then learn.
I've watched it and it was nice but basic. In my mind is far past using casing with high pH, etc, IMO it's all about synergy with microbes...like it is with all things we grow, we want to bring Nature back...mushroom growing is not different or some special magical art.
Quote:
-I feel for RR, newbie boobies shouldn't spread BS all over the forums. Especially since you(Quickpick) have never cultivated even a portabello, nor rieshi, nor button, nor ps. samuiensis, nor ps. cubensis, nor pan.'s, nor oyster, nor many other specimen I cannot even go through to list. When you have achieved such levels like RR, Workman, Me && many others.
Man, do you not understand the difference between calcium sulfate and calcium carbonate? And the action spetra? I was accurate on that and provided much research, the same goes for why h.lime should probably be avoided and 'fine' c.lime powder be used instead.
Oh and I like how you can tell me I've never grown p.cube. That's RR propaganda, I've never said that.
HTH
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quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: rev 766]
#8866525 - 09/02/08 05:24 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Hey rev776,
Quote:
i never said gypsum wasn't calcium sulphate, and i never claimed it would adjust ph.
I know that. RR said it was calcium carbonate and said it would work with pH.
Quote:
the point of it isn't to fix ph, its to add calcium and sulpher AND IT WORKS. it increases yield.
I know that it's not to fix pH. And yes it works but that's only because (a) the media pH is over 5.5, (b) the quantity of gypsum added was very small or (c) the media (sub) had little inherent aluminum. No matter what the answer if there is a better solution so why not use that? And there are better options than gypsum for Ca and S.
Quote:
you are coming on here arguing false information.
No I'm not. How can what I've posted be thought of as false?
Quote:
but you're not just pointing out that it is not a ph buffer, but you are adding more false information by saying that it is useless, and in fact HARMFUL to mycelium! do a side by side grow of an isolate with and without gypsum and see what happens.
I never said it WAS harmful, I said it could be harmful, and thats a fact. How about a side by side with gypsum and some other source of Ca and S with a control or two? That's more fair
Quote:
i'm not trying to be a dick, but you can't spread lies and expect no one to call you out. and if you really didn't know, then you should be thankful you have the opportunity to learn something.
good luck
Well, I'm not sure your not trying to be a dick but I'll take you word on it
As for lies: I think you and most people here are not grasping what I'm saying. And it's not just me, it's like thousands of scientists and researchers, chemists, etc.
But I'm thankful for this site, though I really wish it was more open to new ideas and that it can be wrong, and is wrong . I've learned a lot here but I've read a lot of incorrect info too, all my info is correct save the one time I mentioned the use of Mg from d.lime, which I thought was a needed micronutrient, RR jumped on me for it and corrected me and I was thankful, as you and other should be for me pointing out incorrect info here...
I just wish people here would be more objective and science minded...
HTH
Edited by quickpick (09/02/08 05:30 PM)
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rev 766
gum flappin' scallywag
Registered: 04/08/08
Posts: 885
Last seen: 6 months, 14 days
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: quickpick]
#8866633 - 09/02/08 05:44 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
quickpick said:
Hey rev776,
Quote:
i never said gypsum wasn't calcium sulphate, and i never claimed it would adjust ph.
I know that. RR said it was calcium carbonate and said it would work with pH.
Quote:
the point of it isn't to fix ph, its to add calcium and sulpher AND IT WORKS. it increases yield.
I know that it's not to fix pH. And yes it works but that's only because (a) the media pH is over 5.5, (b) the quantity of gypsum added was very small or (c) the media (sub) had little inherent aluminum. No matter what the answer if there is a better solution so why not use that? And there are better options than gypsum for Ca and S.
Quote:
you are coming on here arguing false information.
No I'm not. How can what I've posted be thought of as false?
Quote:
but you're not just pointing out that it is not a ph buffer, but you are adding more false information by saying that it is useless, and in fact HARMFUL to mycelium! do a side by side grow of an isolate with and without gypsum and see what happens.
I never said it WAS harmful, I said it could be harmful, and thats a fact. How about a side by side with gypsum and some other source of Ca and S with a control or two? That's more fair
Quote:
i'm not trying to be a dick, but you can't spread lies and expect no one to call you out. and if you really didn't know, then you should be thankful you have the opportunity to learn something.
good luck
Well, I'm not sure your not trying to be a dick but I'll take you word on it
As for lies: I think you and most people here are not grasping what I'm saying. And it's not just me, it's like thousands of scientists and researchers, chemists, etc.
But I'm thankful for this site, though I really wish it was more open to new ideas and that it can be wrong, and is wrong . I've learned a lot here but I've read a lot of incorrect info too, all my info is correct save the one time I mentioned the use of Mg from d.lime, which I thought was a needed micronutrient, RR jumped on me for it and corrected me and I was thankful, as you and other should be for me pointing out incorrect info here...
I just wish people here would be more objective and science minded...
HTH
well, it's obvious that gypsum is not the only way to add calcium, just as coffee grounds are not the only way to add nitrogen. however, gypsum does the job, and is easy and cheap to get. if you find a way that is as cheap, and easy to find OR increases yield even more than gypsum, then you will have something.
i'm keep an open mind, and try to look at things in a scientific way, i just get the reason for pointing out gypsum can be bad. of course it can, that's why 5-10% is recommended.
if you want to work with other materials, post your results. i am anxious to know if there is improvement. i think a real experiment would be finding a way to strike the perfect balance of chemicals for substrate. even if it is a nutrient broth ala hydroponic liquid added to a non nutritive substrate. i'm just rambling now. no hard feelings, just show me results so i can dig.
and i imagine that RR slipped up when he said calcium carbonate was in gypsum. i have read many of his posts regarding it and that is the first time i have seen him say anything other than calcium and sulphur.
--------------------
praise "bob"
did you mean shmooed-R.I.P.
"drought besets the mind, decay besets the man"-me
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quickpick
Stranger
Registered: 08/15/08
Posts: 230
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: rev 766]
#8866676 - 09/02/08 05:53 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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rev776,
thanks man, nice post
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ScavengerType
Registered: 01/25/08
Posts: 5,755
Loc: The North
Last seen: 9 days, 18 hours
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Re: Additives to the horse manure [Re: rev 766]
#8866837 - 09/02/08 06:27 PM (4 years, 8 months ago) |
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Dude it is you who is mistaken on the study re-read it, all it's PH measurements test PH after growth where growth is a factor in causing the PH. The tests where different mediums like glucose and phosphate are tested show more about the characteristic of those added ingredients on the medium. There is no data in the study that measures pre-colonization PH and comes to a conclusion that tells that it has any effect on growth because no pre-colonization PH measurements are taken. If you have a clarification or rebuttal please state it.
So to reiterate with regards to that study.  The only thing that study proves is that you can get grant money to poorly study bullshit that wouldn't be useful to anyone.
To be continued...
--------------------
"Have you ever seen what happens when a grenade goes off in a school? Do you really know what you’re doing when you order shock and awe? Are you prepared to kneel beside a dying soldier and tell him why he went to Iraq, or why he went to any war?"
"The things that are done in the name of the shareholder are, to me, as terrifying as the things that are done—dare I say it—in the name of God. Montesquieu said, "There have never been so many civil wars as in the Kingdom of God." And I begin to feel that’s true. The shareholder is the excuse for everything."
- Author and former M6/M5 agent John le Carré on Democracy Now.
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