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 deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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Quote:
it stars saddam said:Meditation is really just a self-induced dissociative state.
that sounds no different to me than an inexperienced tripper saying tripping is "just" seeing pretty colors and feeling good. gotta love assumptions.
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it stars saddam
Satan
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Loc: Spahn Ranch
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 Re: Meditation is useless  [Re: deranger]
#9334070 - 11/29/08 10:02 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Shouldn't you be chanting a mantra or something?
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deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
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funny 
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 Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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People who find it useless are the same people that don't focus long enough to develop concentration. Concentration is the beginning of being able to let the thoughts dissipate. Without thoughts you enter meditation. In meditation is a strange experience of timelessness. It is somewhat akin to the "looping effect" that psychoactive mushrooms cause. It would seem that there is a perceptual faculty that is strengthened during these experiences.
If you find meditation "useless" you have not actually experiences meditation. You need to strengthen that perceptual faculty that I was speaking about to experience this.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,954
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Mr.Al]
#9336509 - 11/30/08 12:37 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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well put
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~~~~~
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Grapefruit
Oblivious Fool
Registered: 05/09/08
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Never seemed liked meditation would do much too me but i'm generally too lazy these days anyway, the bit i did never did very much though. Some relaxed thinking and reflection seems a better, more beneficial fill of what would be my meditation slot in the day.
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I remember when I believed in meaning
Those days aside the hilltop where the sunlight sky and meadows below spoke promises of eternal future
And I remember the day the world turned on me, how frightened I was and the idiotic surprise I was met with
I should've known!
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Grapefruit]
#9336566 - 11/30/08 12:48 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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It doesn't have to be sitting still. Without time is there a stopping or going? It is like an experienced cultivator working with petri dishes. Yes, the working of the petri dishes is reminiscent of "cloud hands" in tai chi.
It is a process of learning how to live from the core of what is perceiving.
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Grapefruit
Oblivious Fool
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Mr.Al]
#9336601 - 11/30/08 12:57 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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It just doesn't seem like it will have as much affect on my happiness as sitting and thinking about my flaws and problems and the ways to mend them therefore i prefer to dedicate my free time to that. 
I was wandering also if meditating stoned made anyone else feel a lil nauseous as if your breath is not working properly?
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I remember when I believed in meaning
Those days aside the hilltop where the sunlight sky and meadows below spoke promises of eternal future
And I remember the day the world turned on me, how frightened I was and the idiotic surprise I was met with
I should've known!
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,556
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Grapefruit]
#9336607 - 11/30/08 12:58 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Just take acid. Really, why crawl when you can fly?
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Grapefruit
Oblivious Fool
Registered: 05/09/08
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I try to do both and then some.
--------------------
I remember when I believed in meaning
Those days aside the hilltop where the sunlight sky and meadows below spoke promises of eternal future
And I remember the day the world turned on me, how frightened I was and the idiotic surprise I was met with
I should've known!
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Grapefruit]
#9336617 - 11/30/08 01:01 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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When you are in meditation they aren't YOUR problems anymore. It also becomes possible to look at your ego/personality construct and make any adjustments you see fit. It is almost like YOU are doing work on some kind of A.I.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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It is a question of control. Would you rather perform brain surgery on yourself with a scalpel or a chainsaw? What is often lacking is subtlety and patience. If you are not patient then you are not ready. Progress can be made with drugs. What people don't see is how important the tiny subtle details really are. The details are boring to you because you will therefore stay away from them until you have a focused mind. An unfocused mind can not deal with the details.
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Grapefruit
Oblivious Fool
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Mr.Al]
#9336648 - 11/30/08 01:07 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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how do you do this work when your so busy focusing on your nose?
--------------------
I remember when I believed in meaning
Those days aside the hilltop where the sunlight sky and meadows below spoke promises of eternal future
And I remember the day the world turned on me, how frightened I was and the idiotic surprise I was met with
I should've known!
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,556
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Mr.Al]
#9336663 - 11/30/08 01:11 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mr.Al said:
Would you rather perform brain surgery on yourself with a scalpel or a chainsaw?
Chainsaw, definitely.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Grapefruit]
#9336679 - 11/30/08 01:15 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think it is a question of identification. You can turn most actions into moving meditation. Do you not think that people doing Tai Chi are not meditating.
If you identify with your body then the vehicle tells you what to do. (Holy shit that's a nice piece of ass). If you identify with your mind, the mind tells you what to do (Holy shit that's a nice piece of ass, now how do I get in her pants???)
If I am presently not identifying with either I will not have that reaction. Although, if I am tripping face on Ayahuasca that reaction has been impossible.
Meditation, to me, is a process of dis-identifying with whatever is not the source of perception itself. Light being reflected back at itself.
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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Rushing ahead, you fall behind.
Tao Te Ching.
If you were taking your time, mindfully placing your feet, you would find that you get there much faster.
It is when you aren't trying to get there...
Just walk.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,861
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Mr.Al]
#9336712 - 11/30/08 01:22 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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I'm not a huge proponent of meditation especially when it comes to the more esoteric attributions. But to say it's worthless is just ignorant. I have had modest gains in my well being from doing it off and on over the years.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,556
Loc: Spahn Ranch
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Icelander]
#9336774 - 11/30/08 01:33 PM (4 years, 5 months ago) |
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I know you're not referring to me, but I'd also like to point out that I don't feel that meditation is "useless" by any means. I merely said that it is essentially a "self-induced dissociative state," which it is.
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Grapefruit
Oblivious Fool
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 4,685
Last seen: 5 hours, 51 minutes
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lol hows meditation in comparison to ketamine? Sounds pretty similar.
--------------------
I remember when I believed in meaning
Those days aside the hilltop where the sunlight sky and meadows below spoke promises of eternal future
And I remember the day the world turned on me, how frightened I was and the idiotic surprise I was met with
I should've known!
Edited by Grapefruit (11/30/08 01:49 PM)
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
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"essentially"???
Meditation is questioning everything that one perceives. It is a personal quest to comprehend beyond what your senses give you. That is why you begin by blocking off the physical sense experience to "go deeper". It is the one key you have at your disposal to get to the bottom of things. Without meditation the drug experience will not give you deeper than the slightly evolved primate experience.
Meditation is the key to unlocking perceptual understanding of reality. Even the Tao Te Ching is just a tool to help you get your mind to behave itself long enough to develop concentration.
The consciousness itself becomes more concentrated and QUALITATIVELY (not just perceptually) different.
Even all the yoga (Indian, Taoist, Buddhist, whatever) is just to prepare you for the meditation.
All of the practices are JUST preparation for meditation.
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