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 lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,296
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 2 months, 10 days
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 Re: Meditation is useless  [Re: capliberty]
#8716491 - 08/02/08 04:20 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
capliberty said:
wise words grasshopper..
But what did you think..? that sitting crosslegged and dwelling on your breathing patterns was going to perform miracles.
it does...
THIS IS THE MIRAC;E MY FRIEND THIS IS "IT"
THE MIRACLE OF EXPERIENCE ! *SHUDDERS UNCONTROLABLY AND WEEPS* (don't take me down this rabbit hole pls. i'm not ready to exp infinity yet 
it might destroy ME 
all that i am comfortably familiar with....
scary......
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"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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 dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: lucid]
#8716528 - 08/02/08 04:32 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
lucid said:
ironicly meditation is supposed to be "useless"
i.e. not "trying" to acheive anything.
i consider meditation an act of experiencing the joy of experiencing.
like making love
making love to the present moment if u will....
I made love to the present moment once.
...things got messy...
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: lucid]
#8716535 - 08/02/08 04:33 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
lucid said:*SHUDDERS UNCONTROLABLY AND WEEPS* (don't take me down this rabbit hole pls. i'm not ready to exp infinity yet
it might destroy ME
all that i am comfortably familiar with....
scary......
lucid, your posts today make you seem downright manic. Please be careful and safe.
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
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lucid
Jack's AlteredConsciousness
Registered: 03/29/03
Posts: 6,296
Loc: up on the bidet
Last seen: 2 months, 10 days
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: dblaney]
#8716539 - 08/02/08 04:35 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
lucid said:
ironicly meditation is supposed to be "useless"
i.e. not "trying" to acheive anything.
i consider meditation an act of experiencing the joy of experiencing.
like making love
making love to the present moment if u will....
I made love to the present moment once.
...things got messy...
always use protection......
withthe "condom" of thought
--------------------
"no-mind un-thinks no-thought..."
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Grapefruit
Oblivious Fool
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 4,685
Last seen: 51 minutes, 41 seconds
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: lucid]
#8716707 - 08/02/08 05:18 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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The best description of meditation i ever heard was that it was a self enquiry. The question being "Why do i feel uncomfortable in this stillness?" psychedelics show you much the same thing, the burgeoning of reality shows you how you always wish you were doing something else. Never content with the moment. Contentment is the goal of meditation (at the moment!) never know whats round the next corner with these things.
Of course that's just my current personal interpretation. I guess it's truly about whatever you make it about.
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I remember when I believed in meaning
Those days aside the hilltop where the sunlight sky and meadows below spoke promises of eternal future
And I remember the day the world turned on me, how frightened I was and the idiotic surprise I was met with
I should've known!
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Diaboleros
Devil's spawn
Registered: 07/20/08
Posts: 1,856
Last seen: 11 months, 23 days
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Grapefruit]
#8716891 - 08/02/08 06:03 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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I thought meditation is a synonym for attention training, and everything experienced during meditation are nothing but side-effects... anyway, wherever I read about meditation, every single person who talks about it beats around the bush, and no one actually gets the point, what are you actually supposed to do while meditating? And what is the goal?
I'm guessing keeping your attention on one thing, no matter what kind of thought it is, is meditation. In order to quiet your mind, you gotta keep your attention still on one thought.. and I'm guessing the goal would be complete control over your mind (your attention focus)?
Tbh, I have the feeling there isn't really anyone out there who really knows what hes talking about when it's about meditation. They all just copy what someone else says? I mean, thinking about nothing is just absurd. Your can't empty your mind. You can calm it, yes. You can put your full attention and concentration on one thing, sure. But you can't stop thinking, you can't stop thoughts. I'm guessing that when people say you gotta stop thinking and clear your mind, they actually mean you gotta put your attention on one thing, and keep it there in order for your mind to calm down. It's like you're runnin around in your mind all the time, and when you meditate, you finally sit down to relax. In order to let your mind sit down and relax, you need to keep your attention one single thing. Anyway, this is how I see it, I'm still new to meditation... why is it so hard to find a decent explanation?
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,954
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Diaboleros]
#8716995 - 08/02/08 06:29 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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what I do when I do it
is this
I have a sense of the end of my nose and I keep it as clear as possible
then I follow the breath saying mentally only (during the in breath)
Beginning (at the beginning) middle (at the middle) end (at the end of the breath.)
and then (during the out breath)
Beginning (at the beginning) middle (at the middle) end (at the end of the breath.)
I keep this up
if my mind wanders I don't get weird I just get back to it.
I keep this up.
that specifically is what I am doing
what happens while I am doing that, is very hard to encapsualte or to empurpose, I can only say that if I am awake and doing nothing of merit I will prefer to do this.
That can amount to quite a bit of time.
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~~~~~
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,860
Loc: underbelly
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Do you do it in the bathtub while smoking salvia? Cause that would be cool.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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BraveWolf
Not one, not many
Registered: 03/03/07
Posts: 17
Last seen: 9 months, 21 days
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Diaboleros]
#8718861 - 08/03/08 10:07 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Your can't empty your mind.
Only true based on context. It is possible, but as soon as you become aware of it the experience is over.
Quote:
why is it so hard to find a decent explanation?
Because language is inadequate. Whoever tells you with confidence what meditation is all about has never experienced it - he's talking bullshit. Ask someone else.
--------------------
The breeze at dawn has secrets to tell you.
Don't go back to sleep.
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PhanTomCat
Teh Cat....
Registered: 09/07/04
Posts: 5,908
Loc: My Youniverse....
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
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 Re: Meditation is useless [Re: BraveWolf]
#8719338 - 08/03/08 01:17 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
BraveWolf said:
Quote:
why is it so hard to find a decent explanation?
Because language is inadequate. Whoever tells you with confidence what meditation is all about has never experienced it - he's talking bullshit. Ask someone else.
Sooooo, you are saying to ask until you find someone that is not confident about what meditation is all about, and they won't be talking BS....? 
>^;;^<
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I'll be your midnight French Fry.... 
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 7,658
Loc: 
Last seen: 16 days, 10 hours
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8719350 - 08/03/08 01:23 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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I think he meant anyone who wants you to think she or he knows the meaning of meditation is useless as a teacher. That doesn't mean they don't teach the practice and talk about the philosophy, but they don't set anything in stone for the student.
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capliberty
Stranger
Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
Last seen: 3 years, 8 months
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Lion]
#8719464 - 08/03/08 01:56 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
So I can do more than just use meditation for napping.
You know my few attempts at meditating did put me asleep. I really didn't grasp the spirt of it I don't think.
Quote:
lucid said:
it does...
THIS IS THE MIRAC;E MY FRIEND THIS IS "IT"
THE MIRACLE OF EXPERIENCE ! *SHUDDERS UNCONTROLABLY AND WEEPS* (don't take me down this rabbit hole pls. i'm not ready to exp infinity yet
it might destroy ME
all that i am comfortably familiar with....
scary......
you know whats more scary is the finite.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,954
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Icelander]
#8719603 - 08/03/08 02:36 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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something closer to tolle's book of Now,
is what happens in the bathtub or on the street
with salvia or not with salvia
or any kind of spike.
slipping into a sensuous now is kind of like having the results of meditative absorption without the work of centering.
highly reccommended.
--------------------
~~~~~
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ExplosiveMango
HallucinogenusDigitallus
Registered: 07/12/05
Posts: 3,222
Last seen: 3 years, 6 months
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: PhanTomCat]
#8720362 - 08/03/08 06:21 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
PhanTomCat said:
Quote:
BraveWolf said:
Quote:
why is it so hard to find a decent explanation?
Because language is inadequate. Whoever tells you with confidence what meditation is all about has never experienced it - he's talking bullshit. Ask someone else.
Sooooo, you are saying to ask until you find someone that is not confident about what meditation is all about, and they won't be talking BS....?
>^;;^<
I think he's saying meditation is about not trying to seize the truth.
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Know your self.
Know your substance.
Know your source.
The most distorted perspective possible is the perspective that yours is not distorted.
Edited by ExplosiveMango (08/03/08 06:45 PM)
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 5,185
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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It is akin to looking at two dimensional comic strip characters.
Looked for, it can not be found. - Lao Tzu
I take that to mean that when you are looking for something you are not here. When you are focusing more on being rather than doing you may be able to gain another dimension... I mean that linear time becomes more illusionary. You can literally see where things have been/are/will be simultaneously. Very disorientating. Experienced this on a ridiculous high dose of orally activated DMT last new year's. Meditation strengthens that which enables you to transcend the consensus reality.
Much of the meditation practices (i.e. Taoist yoga) is aimed at developing the ability to have control over the physical vessel to the degree that you can induce the white light experience (endogenous DMT production via the pineal gland). Taking the DMT into the body can assist one in making some measure of progress before years of yoga (sanskrit for "Union with God") and meditation.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,954
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Mr.Al]
#8720675 - 08/03/08 07:55 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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you get results from meditation that are indirect from the effort.
I explained before that the signal pattern that develops from sustained concentration in the cortex has a complex interference pattern.
this interference pattern is not the object of meditation but the result of it being sustained.
it emerges from the maintained effort indirectly.
if you look for it you miss because the causative pattern is not established.
if you do the work the pattern occurs,
if you become amazed by the result, it disappears or turns to crappy stuff.
(the precise interfernce pattern shifts is the causative signal set supporting it is not there.)
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~~~~~
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Mr.Al
Alphabet soup
Registered: 05/27/07
Posts: 5,185
Loc: N.S.A. D.C.
Last seen: 1 day, 21 hours
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Huh,
Faced with paradox (the sustained concentration you mentioned?) the mind gets tires and eventually breaks. That occurred one day drinking tea and trying to understand the Tao Te Ching. It does seem to creep up on you and then smack you across the face. I have seen beneficial effects from nootropics + MAOI + DMT.
I think the "indirectness" springs from the fact that results are attained when on is not focusing on an outcome...
I think we collectively need to experience a permanent change in dimensional perspective. We are not presently very evolved at all.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,954
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Mr.Al]
#8720974 - 08/03/08 08:59 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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OK
I have heard that "break"
idea before,
i don't buy it.
I do buy that the brain operates consistently though.
we are much more evolved (in the scientific sense of the word rather than the new age sense of the word.) than we know how to handle (or socially conditioned for, or more evolved than the average being can comprehend).
much.
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~~~~~
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,860
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
redgreenvines said:
something closer to tolle's book of Now,
is what happens in the bathtub or on the street
with salvia or not with salvia
or any kind of spike.
slipping into a sensuous now is kind of like having the results of meditative absorption without the work of centering.
highly reccommended.
Oh I agree but recommended only has one c.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 14,954
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Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Icelander]
#8723156 - 08/04/08 10:28 AM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
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i have excccess of c.
extra dd too
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~~~~~
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