|
 dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
|
 Meditation is useless 
#8707275 - 07/31/08 02:59 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
There have been a number of threads about meditation recently. Most of them discuss how via meditation, one will finally control the mind, be able to stop thinking (even at will!), no longer suffer, become free, no longer have problems, no longer have troublesome parts of oneself (eg. anger, anxiety, sexuality, fear, etc.), gain some transcendent knowledge, have some incredible experience, and so on.
And don't get me wrong, these all sound quite lovely. Who wouldn't want to end suffering or no longer have problems? But these are all curative fantasies. They are gaining ideas - what you think you'll get out of practicing meditation. And I think it's pretty much universal among meditators. After all, why start meditating if there's nothing to get out of it? People can meditate for years, all the while hoping or otherwise thinking either on a conscious or unconscious level that they'll get something out of it.
But in truth, meditation will not get rid of your problems. It will not get rid of annoying parts of yourself. It will not make you into some sort of superman, invulnerable to pain (physical and emotional). In fact, there is nothing to gain from meditation.
Quote:
No gain and thus the Bodhisattva lives Prajna Paramita
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
|
 MarioTrip
since84
Registered: 10/21/07
Posts: 2,207
Loc: 69 w/ you
Last seen: 4 years, 7 months
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: dblaney]
#8707319 - 07/31/08 03:05 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
there is nothing to gain from meditation
Miles upon miles of ink have been dedicated to the importance of what meditation does for the body and mind. You're completely ignoring a lot of science with that blanket statement.
--------------------
I'm Livin' It, distribute it
The streets are inhibited
By cut throat niggas just like me
that out there getting dividends
|
kiyote
Apprentice Grower
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 366
Loc: Near Chicago
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: dblaney]
#8707322 - 07/31/08 03:05 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I don't know if you're trying to make a round about point, but planed gains and the gains you actually receive are two different things. The motivation for starting meditation might be different from the actual benefits, but that doesn't make meditation any less beneficial.
And since the misguided or even false preconceptions about meditation guide a person to enlightenment, are they even truly bad? That's mahayana.
|
it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,556
Loc: Spahn Ranch
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: dblaney]
#8707340 - 07/31/08 03:08 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
I wouldn't say it's any more or less useful than anything else, but it can be quite a transcendental and euphoric experience, so yeah, I am a proponent of meditation.
|
dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: MarioTrip]
#8707344 - 07/31/08 03:09 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MarioTrip said:
Quote:
there is nothing to gain from meditation
Miles upon miles of ink have been dedicated to the importance of what meditation does for the body and mind. You're completely ignoring a lot of science with that blanket statement.
Nope, not ignoring it. But a lot of those physiological and psychological changes can be gained through exercise, good diet, and psychotherapy.
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
|
deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
|
|
Meditation is useless
that's like saying physical exercise is useless. you must be doing it all wrong.
|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 7,658
Loc: 
Last seen: 18 days, 21 hours
|
|
Quote:
it stars saddam said:
I wouldn't say it's any more or less useful than anything else
Would you say it's more useful than stabbing yourself in the throat? Just curious....
--------------------
|
it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,556
Loc: Spahn Ranch
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Lion]
#8707356 - 07/31/08 03:11 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
No I wouldn't.
|
dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: kiyote]
#8707381 - 07/31/08 03:15 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
kiyote said:
I don't know if you're trying to make a round about point, but planed gains and the gains you actually receive are two different things. The motivation for starting meditation might be different from the actual benefits, but that doesn't make meditation any less beneficial.
And since the misguided or even false preconceptions about meditation guide a person to enlightenment, are they even truly bad? That's mahayana.
What gains do you actually receive?
I don't mean to suggest that gaining ideas are bad (or good), but they are a very important area to bring awareness to and to practice with.
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
|
dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
|
|
Quote:
it stars saddam said:
I wouldn't say it's any more or less useful than anything else, but it can be quite a transcendental and euphoric experience, so yeah, I am a proponent of meditation.
If you're meditating in order to have special experiences, you should try drugs, much more efficient way of having those kinds of experiences. 
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
|
dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: deranger]
#8707406 - 07/31/08 03:19 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SyntheticMInd said:
Meditation is useless
that's like saying physical exercise is useless. you must be doing it all wrong.
Well ultimately, physical exercise won't save us from death, so in that sense it IS useless! 
But perhaps you could enlighten me as to how to do it right so that I will really gain something great?
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 7,658
Loc:
Last seen: 18 days, 21 hours
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: dblaney]
#8707427 - 07/31/08 03:22 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Weren't we discussing a few months ago the various phases a Zen practitioner goes through on the path? These would not exist if something did not change in the student during the course of the practice...Something of benefit. Or do you think this is a wrong understanding?
--------------------
|
it stars saddam
Satan
Registered: 05/20/05
Posts: 15,556
Loc: Spahn Ranch
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: dblaney]
#8707432 - 07/31/08 03:22 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
it stars saddam said:
I wouldn't say it's any more or less useful than anything else, but it can be quite a transcendental and euphoric experience, so yeah, I am a proponent of meditation.
If you're meditating in order to have special experiences, you should try drugs, much more efficient way of having those kinds of experiences.
Yeah, just yesterday I used the metaphor that meditation is like climbing the mountain to transcendence while psychedelics like LSD are like driving or sometimes flying there. Both have their place.
|
dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Lion]
#8707450 - 07/31/08 03:25 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Good point! Suzuki Roshi once remarked that real practice has orientation or direction, but it has no purpose or gaining idea.
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
|
dblaney
Human Being
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 7,894
Loc: Here & Now
|
|
What is there to be transcended?
--------------------
"What is in us that turns a deaf ear to the cries of human suffering?"
"Belief is a beautiful armor
But makes for the heaviest sword"
- John Mayer
Making the noise "penicillin" is no substitute for actually taking penicillin.
"This country, with its institutions, belongs to the people who inhabit it. Whenever they shall grow weary of the existing government, they can exercise their constitutional right of amending it, or their revolutionary right to dismember or overthrow it." -Abraham Lincoln
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,903
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: dblaney]
#8707485 - 07/31/08 03:29 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
But in truth, meditation will not get rid of your problems. It will not get rid of annoying parts of yourself. It will not make you into some sort of superman, invulnerable to pain (physical and emotional). In fact, there is nothing to gain from meditation.
Great post , unfortuantely it's not quite correct. There is scientific proof of some of the modest benefits of meditation. But I get your point.
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
|
deranger
Registered: 01/21/08
Posts: 6,840
Loc: off the wall
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: dblaney]
#8707495 - 07/31/08 03:30 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
dblaney said:
Quote:
SyntheticMInd said:
Meditation is useless
that's like saying physical exercise is useless. you must be doing it all wrong.
Well ultimately, physical exercise won't save us from death, so in that sense it IS useless!
But perhaps you could enlighten me as to how to do it right so that I will really gain something great?
nothing to gain... that part I agreed with. however, because there's nothing to gain doesn't make it useless. many find meditation to be effective.
|
Lion
Decadent Flower Magnate
Registered: 09/20/05
Posts: 7,658
Loc:
Last seen: 18 days, 21 hours
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: dblaney]
#8707504 - 07/31/08 03:32 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
dblaney said:
What is there to be transcended?
Suffering, pain, shame, fear, anxiety, mental disorders, traumatic memories....Not saying any of these need to be transcended, they're just the type of things I think most would want to transcend if given the choice.
--------------------
|
kiyote
Apprentice Grower
Registered: 07/08/08
Posts: 366
Loc: Near Chicago
Last seen: 5 months, 27 days
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: Icelander]
#8707580 - 07/31/08 03:45 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
What gains do you actually receive?
If you're looking for what meditation does to your brain physically, then I would check out this book. It is a medical text written by a neurologist I believe out of Yale. He goes ahead and tries to quantify the different physical changes including some astonishing findings on the brains ability to change the threshold levels of GABA in the brain. The book also compares and contrasts the effect drugs like LSD and Mushroom have on the brain in comparison to meditation
From experience, the psychological changes gained by meditation include the ability to focus more, be more aware of my surroundings and have what feels like more self-control. I have noticed less of the new ideas, but that could be mainly because I've practiced Zen meditation which aims at pushing out conscious thought during the practice.
Am I saying that meditation is the only way of changing like this? No. But it is a very legitimate way gaining more control over yourself. Meditation is not magic, it won't "cure" you of every problem and believe it or not, sitting there trying to keep your thoughts from wandering while not moving is very hard work and very frustrating. But the gains that are there are real.
|
Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,903
Loc: underbelly
|
Re: Meditation is useless [Re: kiyote]
#8707595 - 07/31/08 03:47 PM (4 years, 9 months ago) |
|
|
Am I saying that meditation is the only way of changing like this? No. But it is a very legitimate way gaining more control over yourself. Meditation is not magic, it won't "cure" you of every problem and believe it or not, sitting there trying to keep your thoughts from wandering while not moving is very hard work and very frustrating. But the gains that are there are real.
Gee a balanced perspective. What are you doing here?
--------------------
"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
|
|
Images only 
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Edit 
Reply 
Anonymous
