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 Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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 Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets  [Re: PyroBurns]
#8068572 - 02/25/08 03:27 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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When did I say that we needed "crazy stuff from all over the world"?? The healthiest diet, as exemplified by the cultures reviewed in "Healthy at 100," is very simple & based on local produce and grains.
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PyroBurns
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: Veritas]
#8068577 - 02/25/08 03:29 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Okay, then what do you usually eat?
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8068607 - 02/25/08 03:36 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
I have a pantry stocked with pounds of brown rice, rolled oats, various beans, seeds for sprouting, supplements, etc...so I could hold out for quite a while without a grocery store. I also have a garden, and grow lots of my own veggies.
BTW, I do not advocate a low-fat, high-carb diet. I consume saturated fat in the form of coconut milk and oil, and get ample amounts of mono- and poly-unsaturated fats from nuts, seeds, tofu, olive oil, grapeseed oil, hemp oil, flax meal and oil. I think that processed carbs are not healthy, and focus on whole grains whenever possible. When I do eat processed grains, I look for sprouted grain products such as Ezekial bread and tortillas.
If I had to adapt to eating strictly local, it would be fairly easy. I couldn't get coconut oil or milk locally, but hemp seeds would be easy to find. 
It helps that I live in an agricultural region, with a long growing season. (Someone in the desert would be in trouble.) Even during the winter, I could grow my own "greens" by sprouting seeds & beans, or by using a cold frame. I would need to dry fruits and veggies during the summer, and keep them in my cool, dark pantry so that they would stay fresh through the winter.
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PyroBurns
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: Veritas]
#8068623 - 02/25/08 03:41 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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But what would you do if you didn't have access to all that?
It would take a lot of work to gather all that if you were travelling. Or if you were stuck out in the wilderness and needed to find something to eat.
Sure the times listed above aren't optimal, but you could still get all the nutrients you want and need if you busted out of vegan bounds.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8068630 - 02/25/08 03:43 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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If I really, really needed to survive, I would probably resort to consuming a diet which I suspected would undermine my longevity. (But not as much as starving to death would. ) Once I had access to beneficial foods, I would change my diet again. 
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PyroBurns
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: Veritas]
#8068631 - 02/25/08 03:44 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Undermine your longevity? How?
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Veritas
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Posts: 11,088
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8068634 - 02/25/08 03:45 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Vegetarians live longer and healthier than meat-eaters, so my consumption of meat in a situation of limited options would likely shorten my lifespan.
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PyroBurns
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: Veritas]
#8068639 - 02/25/08 03:46 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Can you prove that completely?
Are there any studies that compare vegans and meat eaters following healthy diets?
Because I assume that vegans are typcially more aware of what they eat than the general public.
So tell me, how does meat make you die early?
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8068781 - 02/25/08 04:45 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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No one can prove that a particular diet is 100% responsible for premature death and disease. (Unless you are eating a steady diet of strychnine or cyanide, that is.  )
What the major studies show is a increased risk of all major life-threatening diseases for those who consume meat and dairy products. Longevity tends to predominate in cultures which emphasize plant-source proteins and fats.
Certainly those who choose a vegan diet may also consume a highly-nutritious, well-balanced diet overall. They also are more likely to exercise, which reduces disease risk in both vegetarians AND meat-eaters. The Seventh Day Adventist study was ground-breaking in that all participants were members of a church which promotes a healthful lifestyle, so the main difference between vegetarian respondents and meat-eating respondents was meat consumption.
My best guess about longevity is that those who wear their bodies out the fastest will die sooner. Our stomach and intestines are not designed for meat consumption, though we have adapted enough to survive it for a few decades. If you look at the stomach and intestines of carnivorous animals, you will see that they are designed to quickly digest & eliminate, which minimizes exposure to the bacteria and toxins present in dead animals. Our digestive system is designed to slowly break down & assimilate nutrients from fibrous foods, which maximizes our exposure to putrefactive bacteria, chemicals & toxins present in decomposing flesh.
The protein we get from meat and dairy requires more processing in order to be assimilated, taxing our entire body. We rob calcium from our bones in order to balance the non-optimal protein, creating osteoporosis in the elderly. Our kidneys are taxed by filtering excess protein and toxins from our system, and thus are more prone to cellular mutation and damage. There is quite a bit of evidence to support the idea that meat and dairy consumption shifts the pH of our body towards acid, when we require slight alkalinity to maintain optimum health. This imbalance encourages free radical activity, causing inflammation and oxidation.
Meat has a carcinogenic effect in the human body, meaning that it encourages cellular mutation and damages our DNA. This increases our likelihood of developing cancer, particularly of the stomach.
Most damaging of all, however, is a diet which includes both simple carbs AND animal products. When we raise our blood glucose levels with simple carbs, then eat fatty animal products, the glucose and saturated fat binds together to create arterial plaque. Additionally, the glucose inflames the arteries & stiffens the arterial walls, further reducing the flow of blood. Glucose also encourages free radical activity, increasing the risk of cellular oxidation and DNA damage.
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PyroBurns
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: Veritas]
#8069033 - 02/25/08 06:03 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well that's some new stuff for me. Care to link to some sources?
I'll do some studying and see about these.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8069046 - 02/25/08 06:08 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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It'll have to wait until the weekend, as I am working full-time and running my own business in my "spare" time.
(Not to mention raising two kids by myself & about to close escrow on my first home.  )
Check out "The pH Miracle" for some info about acid/alkaline balance. The digestive info. is readily available with a quick online search. The glucose/fat information is on any diabetes association site.
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PyroBurns
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: Veritas]
#8069084 - 02/25/08 06:20 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Well so far my search for carcinogenic meats is turning up nothing. Only stuff about over cooked and processed meats so far. One study even said, scientists didn't back up claims of normal red meat causing cancer. The studies I found on PETA and another vegan site were very vague.
The kidney claim is false. I remember it was addressed in the book, that the study was done on rabbits. Who don't eat meat! The only way we would see damage is if we dehydrate ourselves or tried not to pee.
I don't believe the intestinal thing either. There are much more complaints about fiber rotting and fermenting in the intestines than meat. I've never really heard of meat that didn't have parasites in it already bringing about parasites after consumption.
The robbing of calcium sounds more like a malnutrition problem to me, combined with a calorie deficit. Glucose is the macro that competes for absorbtion from what I remember. But I'll still be looking around.
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Edited by PyroBurns (02/25/08 06:21 PM)
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ChiefGreenLeaf
Registered: 01/11/07
Posts: 1,498
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8069093 - 02/25/08 06:22 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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I love when people debate the cause of heart disease. Regardless of the biochemical pathways involved, one thing can be for certain: if you are a junk food addict slob that never exercises u will get heart disease.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8069099 - 02/25/08 06:24 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Not parasites, putrefactive bacteria. All animals have putrefactive bacteria in their intestines, and these organisms aid in decomposition once the animal is dead. All meat is dead animal flesh, and therefore teeming with busy little putrefiers. "Aging" meat allows the bacteria to tenderize (decompose) and flavor the flesh with their excrement.
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PyroBurns
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Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 4,335
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8069105 - 02/25/08 06:28 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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BTW I don't really defend dairy. Lactose and Casein are indigestible and probably bad for you. I'm allergic anyway.
Same with beans, and gluten containing grains. You can't digest gluten or saccharride (if I spelled that right, I'm lucky) so they probably do harm too. I'm allergic to gluten, too! Go figure.
That makes me wonder. If my body constantly rejects undigestible foods, then why do I do so well on "taxing" fats and meats? I think that tells us something, but then again it's just me and can't really be used in an argument.
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PyroBurns
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8069112 - 02/25/08 06:30 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Here are a couple of articles I'm reading right now. If you get that "subsribe" bullshit just put in a fake email address and you can read the article.
http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/16/vegetarianism_myths_05.htm
http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8069133 - 02/25/08 06:37 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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And you haven't lived on a heavy meat diet for decades. The effects do not show up during your youth, they show up in middle and old age.
Some people do have a problem with gluten, but I've not heard of anyone being unable to digest beans. Gluten allergies are often caused by well-meaning but misinformed parents feeding their infant wheat cereals or cookies. Until our digestive system is fully matured, our immune system will develop antibodies against foods which we cannot digest. Babies under 6 months are not ready to digest anything but breast milk, yet they are routinely fed dairy, wheat, corn, eggs, etc... creating lifelong food allergies and digestive deficiencies. 
I fed my son's a hypoallergenic diet from age 6 months to 18 months, and they had nothing but breast milk until 6 months. Neither has any allergies, including seasonal allergies. 
Perhaps you mean cellulose, which is a strutural polysaccharide? Humans cannot break the links between the molecules, so cellulose passes through undigested. Vegetable cellulose is also known as fiber. The fact that we cannot digest fiber means that it can pass through our digestive tract like a broom, sweeping out whatever gunk we've been unable to "move along" through peristalsis. Fiber is an essential part of the human diet, and is not harmful in any way.
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Veritas
Registered: 04/15/05
Posts: 11,088
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: PyroBurns]
#8069142 - 02/25/08 06:41 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Quote:
PyroBurns said:
http://www.mercola.com/2002/feb/16/vegetarianism_myths_05.htm
http://www.mercola.com/2000/apr/2/vegetarian_myths.htm
It is difficult for me to take "Dr." Mercola seriously, since he circulates so much pseudoscientific information. My reviews of his citations have been unproductive, as his references often lead to other sites which have cited an apparently non-existent study, or to the Weston A. Price Foundation.
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PyroBurns
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: Veritas]
#8069145 - 02/25/08 06:42 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Fiber is non essential IMO. I can usually go better with low to no fiber than if I had it.
There is an undigestible protein in beans that I'm trying to get at.
As for allergens, I'm unsure if I'd eat them anyway. Just because we had the antibodies, why use them? We shouldn't expose ourselves to foods like that.
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PyroBurns
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Registered: 10/14/07
Posts: 4,335
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Re: Myths about vegan and vegetarian diets [Re: Sterile]
#8069233 - 02/25/08 07:01 PM (5 years, 2 months ago) |
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Meat being carcinogenic:
http://www.webmd.com/colorectal-cancer/guide/understanding-colorectal-cancer-basics
WebMD itself says that these studies are inconclusive.
I looked up the 7th day guys and in the mercola article and another article it suggested that they also abstained from many other things. Like the mormons. Who also did well, but ate meat.
Here is a webmd on osteoperosis which doesn't mention meat at all as a culprit:
http://www.webmd.com/osteoporosis/lactose-intolerance-and-osteoporosis
Protein and kidneys, and cancerous meat:
http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/5-food-rules-break
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Edited by PyroBurns (02/25/08 07:04 PM)
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