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Genesis 1:1 says that everything God created was good.

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1 First God made heaven & earth 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. 6 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so.

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ShroomDoom said:
Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is not observable. it is neither here nor there. for lo and behold the kingdom of heaven is within you.

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Seuss said:

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Genesis 1:1 says that everything God created was good.

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You better go read it again, because it most certainly does not say that everything Gd created was good. I will save you the effort:

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1 First God made heaven & earth 2 The earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. 3 And God said, "Let there be light"; and there was light. 4 And God saw that the light was good; and God separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, one day. 6 And God said, "Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it separate the waters from the waters." 7 And God made the firmament and separated the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament. And it was so.

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31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

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Ok, you win. 

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RogerRabbit said:
A few things.

One, what does 'god' have to do with the bible?

Two, the so-called god of that bible claims to be evil and good, denying the existance of a devil(Amos 3:6).

Third, Satan wasn't 'cast out' of heaven. That is catholic doctrine. Satan is one of the sons of the god of the bible(Job 1:6). And while I'm on the subject of Job, it wasn't satan that fucked Job's eyes out, it was god. Read the book of Job. It will only take a few minutes and is quite disgusting if you somehow think the god of the bible is in any way good. He took his 'most faithful servant' and killed his family, destroyed his home and crops, gave him boils all over his body, blah blah blah, all because he was trying to win a bet with satan.....Some god.

Fourth, 'god' turned Lot's wife to a pillar of salt because she looked back on the city she loved, but later when Lot himself got drunk and fucked the shit out of his own daughters all was fine and dandy.... (Genesis 19) Again, someone tell me this 'god' is good???

Fifth, this god brought a flood and killed every living thing, but later was so sorry for that 'great evil' he did that he put a rainbow in the sky as a promise to never again destroy the earth.(Genesis 8: 20-22) Now, the christians and the new testament say he's going to destroy it with fire. Oops, he only promised not to destroy it with water, I guess fire is ok.

Sixth, if satan was 'the serpent' then why does jesus tell us to be 'wise as serpents'? The serpent was and always has been a symbol of intelligence. That's why the serpent told eve it was ok to eat the fruit. That 'garden of eden' story is just a retelling of a much more ancient tale where the serpent was the hero of the story, not the villian.

I could go on and on, but that's enough. Believe in God all you want, but just so you don't ask me to believe that murder in the bible is God. He's an impostor, and quite the evil one at that.
RR

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Seuss said:

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31 And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

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Ok, you win. 

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MarkostheGnostic said:

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ShroomDoom said:
Jesus said the kingdom of heaven is not observable. it is neither here nor there. for lo and behold the kingdom of heaven is within you.

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Right. So why all the politics? Why look to an Apocalypse on Earth, Jesus coming in the clouds, and all the other florid images when spiritual reality is not perceived with the eyes of the body?

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younikrawn said:
Excellent post MarkostheGnostic. Personally I don't believe a word of the Bible. It has been altered and edited and rewritten, used and abused to suit past societies needs (as RR pointed out). But even if the current Bible was accurate... there are enough contradictions and loopholes that it can be used to argue any point.

The question of why a God would create evil has already been answered. You can't have good without bad!

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Mastamike1118 said:
because good cannot exist without evil.... What makes something good??? only evil which it can be compared to... They both complete each other...

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MarkostheGnostic said:
The "Shining One," or serpent on the Tree of Gnosis [Knowledge] of Good and Evil was only later, in Christian times, identified with the Hebrew Aversary [Satan]. Just as Lucifer [Light Bearer] - a title that was annexed to some of the gods and goddesses of antiquity (like Diana Lucifera), was later demonized like every other spiritual entity from antiquity, except for certain celestial beings, the lowest of which on the hierarchy were angles. There were early Christians who also saw the "Be ye wise as serpents and harmless as doves," as well as Jesus' reference to being "lifted up" on the cross, but also in that bit of symbolism, a parallel to the healing bronze serpent on a staff that Moses "lifted up" in the wilderness and which cured those with faith, who were dying of heavy metal poisoning (having been forced to drink gold from the golden calf). I own a shirt from Cafe Press which depicts the Gnostic crucified serpent on a Tau cross - an early Gnostic Christian symbol for Wisdom, Logos, Healing Savior.

Isaiah 45:7 (King James Version): "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things." Interpret as you will, this is the verse.

Carl Jung tried to show the psychological blindspot of those who believe in a God of sweetness and light - alone. Satan is God's Shadow, Jung said. The brighter the Light, the darker the Shadow. Evil is relative to the pain and suffering that mortal humans can experience, not the Eternal God and Author of all there is. On the other hand, there is the mythos of the rebellion in Heaven, wherein 1/3 of all the Heavenly Host rebel against God and a battle ensues in which Lucifer [Light bearer] and the 1/3 are thrown from Heaven into Hell, which is said to be within the Earth. The Western church says it was Pride, but the Eastern church which still recognizes the Books of Enoch, says it was Lust (Enochian Books describe how fallen angels lusted after human women, mated with them and produced "giants"; taught women the 'enchanting arts' of cosmetics, and taught men how to forge weapons).

The point is, that even in God's 'abode,' evil dwells. This is important metaphysical and transpersonal psychological material. Heaven is usually depicted as a 'place,' but Heaven is sometimes synonymous with the very Being of God (e.g., Matthew didn't like "KIngdom of God" because Jews avoided the writing of any of the Names of G-d and so he changed it to "Kingdom of Heaven." If the rebellion 'in Heaven' is actually a rebellion 'in God,' then Satan and the fallen angels are 'autonomous complexes' within God Himself! In humans, autonomous complexes are parts of the psyche that take on a life of their own. In fiction autonomous complexes of artificial intelligence become Agent Smith in 'The Matrix').

Let me just say that the Bible has everything to do with God, but let me also add that people must do what the Reverend John Shelby Spong urges in one of his books whose title says it all: Rescuing the Bible From Fundamentalism.
There are OTHER interpretations of Biblical writ. Do NOT unconsciously accept the traditional interpretations as the ONLY interpretation. There are doctrines created in the first centuries of Christianity that essentially enslaved the multitudes of illiterate and superstitious people. Eventually the Catholic Church made possession by lay people of the Bible punishable by death! Sin and Guilt and eternal damnation only remedied by compliant, paying peasants. The end did not occur in the same generation of Jesus (as promised) or of Paul's who followed by maybe 40 years.

Could it be that the interpretation of Jesus has been very very wrong? Could Jesus, the man, have been wrong in stating the end of history? Yes, if one expects historical events, No, if one expects metaphysical events. Why, if Jesus made a point (the Jesus of the Gospel authors) of saying that His Kingdom was 'not of this world,' do people continue to look to historical events in this world to back up the words of Jesus? The end of days, the end of time does occur in the Inner World, to the Inner Man!!! This is not something that belongs to myth alone, this is The Shroomery for God's sake where most everyone has taken a life-changing Entheogenic Excursion - a trip people, a very heavy trip - in which time vanishes, identity vanishes, but Light and Awareness continue to radiate from all Eternity. Maybe one has tasted Eternal Life, maybe Hell. Someone out there must KNOW what I'm talking about! How about looking to the Inner [Wo]Man in the Inner World for the Kingdom of God - NOT to historical, physical, material phenomena!

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RogerRabbit said:
Ahem mike. . ..Satan did nothing to job. God did it all to win a bet.  If I bet you that you don't have the balls to kill your wife, and you then kill your wife, is it your fault or mine?  You're letting god off the hook because he didn't want to lose a bet.  Besides, the 'moral' of the story is evil in and of itself.  "So what if I kill your children and wipe out everything you've ever worked for in your life?  If you still love me afterward, I'll give you new children and a new house!"  Some god.

As for god turning lot's wife into a pillar of salt, then looking the other way while lot fucked his own daughters, if you choose to believe he was too drunk to know he was screwing his daughters, how the hell could he have made his dick get hard?  It just doesn't work that way.  I'm a man. . .I know   Besides, did you ever fuck some gal that just crawled into your bed without expecting it or knowing who she was?  It's far more likely that he raped his own daughters, and the writers gave us the G rated version.

Be very careful in using the new testament to interpret the old.  Jews did not consider jesus the son of god in any way, and it was and still is blasphemy to pretend to be the son of god in the flesh.  In addition, jews know the messiah is born into each of us who reach enlightenment, and isn't a person in the flesh.  The catholic church has no right to tell jews what the old testament means.

Also, be careful using a concordance to 'interpret' the bible.  Those are simply reflecting the dogma of whomever or whatever religious order wrote it.
RR

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God allowed Satan to do things to Job's family, flock, servants, etc. That is what the text says. Allowing i not the ame thing as doing. Let's look at this another way. I started having grand mal seizures a couple of years ago. Not some 2 minute seizure, but 10-15 minute seizures. I spent 2 months in the hospital off an on. At the same time both of my grandmother's died, and one of my best friends wa killed by a drunk driver. He was almost cut in half. I lost everything, almost. My job, some family, a friend...gone, and I find out I am epileptic (in which they turned me to a slobbering mess with phenobarbital and valium).
I could have cursed God, but this is earth. People are mortal and nothing is permanent. I don't blame Satan either. This was Job's POV. Really, it was. His friends (asshole friends) told him he deserved it or he must have done something wrong, etc. His wife told him to curse God and die. Job didn't blame God. Why? Anthropologist know that it was not very uncommon for people to experience famine, mass disease, and so on. Slave traders and theives stole things of Job's as well. They even did some butchery.
Job realized shit happens. 9/11, Sri Lanka, LA riots, WW1, WW2, etc. are devistating. 9/11 hurt all of us, but terrorist, muslim radical terrorist did it. We, as a whole don't blame God; we blame fuckers like bin Laden whom I would kill if given a chance. Anyhow, this type of outlook is not new. Job wasn't prived to God's conversation with Satan. We are. We assume that this was a one time conversation, and the rest of the evil in the world is something different. Is it? I don't know. I see it as the metaphysical side of 'life'.
I said all that to say we can't blame God for the craziness of the world, karma, etc. We can't use the "devil made me do it" ideals neither. What we can do is hold to the promise of Rom. 8:28.
I don't pretend to totally understand the book of Job, but I do know that God gave him back more than he had in the beginning. If you read the whole book, God asks Job a bunch of questions that Job couldn't know the answer to. The point was that God does, and that he should be trusted.
ANOTHER WAY JOB IS VIEWED. Some scholars believe that Job may have been a mythological book, written for the purpose of showing God vs. Satan vs. man. Tobbit, in the catholic Bible, is a myth. I tend to disagree with this school of thought though.
I am not going to lie to you and say I totally understand Job, but from my personal experiences, I can see his POV.


As far as Lot, if you want to ignore the actuallity of the text than fine. But, the text says something other than what you are saying. Yes, on two different occasions I woke up with strange a woman in my bed...well once in the car, but you get the point. A far as the Bible being G rated, read Lametations. Jews do not allow kids to read it until they reach a certain age. Or what about the guy who wa ssuppose to, according to law, impregnate his dead brother's wife, just to pull out and nut on the floor (weird scenario, huh?)?

Using the New Testament to interpret Old Testament is fine as far as Christians are concerned. It must be done. Look at the Mosiac law, Isaiah, Daniel, etc. OT prophecy is fulfilled in the NT. This is crucial to even consider Jesus as Christ. Jews and Christians have a unique relationship and agree to disagree.

I am NOT catholic. The word leaves a bad taste in my mouth. The only time I have ever heard of Jews being pissed over Christian beliefs is with the old school fundamintalist Jews. Of course they have been known to throw rocks at Jews whom have embrassed modern culture. Driving a car for instance. But I have only heard of this in Israel.

Concordances should not be used to interpret. If I said that I meant commentary. I have three sets of those, all of which were required in ancient Hebrew and Greek classes.
Concordances are used to find words and where those words are located. If you look up "love", for instance, it will give you every ingle place that word can be found in the Bible.
Commentaries in Bibles, as well as concordances, are very poor, and at the discretion of the publisher of the Bible. I have a Jimmy Swaggert study Bible (strictly for a laugh). Would you use the notes in it? Hell no.

MM

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If people would listen to some of the principles of Jesus, Christian or not, the world would be a better place. Judge not, lest ye be judged; Let ye without sin cast the first stone; Treat your neighbors as you wish to be treated; etc.

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MushroomTrip said:

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If people would listen to some of the principles of Jesus, Christian or not, the world would be a better place. Judge not, lest ye be judged; Let ye without sin cast the first stone; Treat your neighbors as you wish to be treated; etc.

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That's what's been happening since always.
Listening to the words of Jesus.
All the time.
And they hooray glory to God.
And then they come home and abuse their 3 year old daughter.
From all I know they can even sing some religious song while they're at it.
Doesn't it makes you wonder WHY it happens?
Jesus ( and any other mystic ) had his own experience.
All of them got there on their own.
By experiencing.
By not listening to the dogma before them.
Listening doesn't do no good.
It's like reading a medicine book and then stating you are a doctor.

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To say you learn by experience only is flawed. Think about it. Do you have to rape, murder, and pillage to know that it is wrong?

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The best thing to do is listen to the law (at least the sensible ones) and not end up in the gas chamber. You say listening does no good. Really? I guess the cultivation room is a waste of everyone's time.

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Don't insult any ethnic, religious, or whatever group of people by stereotyping them. That shows ignorance.

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And they hooray glory to God.
And then they come home and abuse their 3 year old daughter.
From all I know they can even sing some religious song while they're at it.

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Jesus ( and any other mystic ) had his own experience.
All of them got there on their own.
By experiencing.
By not listening to the dogma before them.
Listening doesn't do no good.
It's like reading a medicine book and then stating you are a doctor.

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maybe evil doesnt exist and is just in the mind of beholder?

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