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 Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,224
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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 God's Disciples: WTF? 
#6002453 - 08/27/06 07:50 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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So, as I understand it, God can't or won't talk to us directly. Instead, he has some flawed human convey his most important messages. A human who is well known to have crappy memory and to frequently inadvertently change messages from their original meaning. God, who can create a universe, can't just materialize in front of us and deliver the message directly so there's no chance of misunderstanding.
Is he deliberately trying to confuse us so he can sit back and send the ones who misread his message to hell? What's up with that? I don't get it.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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 Xanthas
Blaspheme,blaspheyou, Blaspheverybody
Registered: 11/19/05
Posts: 267
Last seen: 6 years, 9 days
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 Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002460 - 08/27/06 07:54 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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No, you've got it all wrong. God is only mostly omnipotent, but he's blocked out by the fluoride in the water, kinda like superman with lead. The Soviets knew this, and since they hate god so much, decided to fluoridate US water. Thus, only those who are fluoride-immune get to hear god.
As such, those who also don't brush their teeth (huge doses of fluoride in that) get the best heavenly reception.
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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
Edited by Xanthas (08/27/06 07:55 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Posts: 79,929
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002481 - 08/27/06 08:06 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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are you trolling for suckers my sweet little bunny? 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Silversoul
Holon
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002486 - 08/27/06 08:07 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
So, as I understand it, God can't or won't talk to us directly.
He does. You just have to learn how to listen.
Quote:
Instead, he has some flawed human convey his most important messages.
Because most people don't know how to listen to God, they rely on others' words, which can be dangerous, as they have little way of knowing whether or not someone's a false prophet. A true prophet or apostle is just someone who's mastered the art of communing with God.
Quote:
A human who is well known to have crappy memory and to frequently inadvertently change messages from their original meaning.
True, but that is simply the nature of the demiurgos(illusion) that is the physical realm.
Quote:
God, who can create a universe, can't just materialize in front of us and deliver the message directly so there's no chance of misunderstanding.
God didn't "create" the universe in the sense that we tend to think of it. Rather, the universe emanates from God. The pleroma(God's fullness) contracts to create finite space in which creation can occur. It cannot exist in God's fullness, nor can it exist in the absence of God. So God partially restricts Godself in order that creation might occur. God has materialized, in the form of the universe.
Quote:
Is he deliberately trying to confuse us so he can sit back and send the ones who misread his message to hell? What's up with that? I don't get it.
Deliberate has nothing to do with it. Cosmic ignorance is inherent in the process of creation, as God emanates from the perfect infinity of the pleroma to lower levels, culminating in the physical realm. As for "hell," don't think of it as some otherworldly punishment. Hell is right here, living in ignorance of our true nature.
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002498 - 08/27/06 08:11 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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He does. You just have to learn how to listen.
See, there's the problem. I've tried to listen. I tried for a decade. Nothing happened that couldn't be attributed to simple psychology. Nothing at all.
Either those who hear God are delusional, or God doesn't like me.
Still, this doesn't answer my question of why God would try to talk to me THROUGH some guy, but not directly.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002511 - 08/27/06 08:17 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
He does. You just have to learn how to listen.
See, there's the problem. I've tried to listen. I tried for a decade. Nothing happened that couldn't be attributed to simple psychology. Nothing at all.
Either those who hear God are delusional, or God doesn't like me.
Or maybe you're too quick to dismiss what God tells you, and don't recognize it as God.
Quote:
Still, this doesn't answer my question of why God would try to talk to me THROUGH some guy, but not directly.
Again, God tries to talk to all of us, but some of us who don't know how to listen can only hear him through someone else.
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surf rat
pass the dutchie
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Posts: 988
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002522 - 08/27/06 08:25 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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god aint real
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Draft beer, not people.
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Telepylus
Babyman
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002524 - 08/27/06 08:25 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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i think god talks to everyone who is honest and whole
god says things which prove his existence
while he's communicating to a person, he uses a voice that the listener knows isn't his own mind,
usually by answering questions impossible for a person to know,
then the listener may test that newfound information, to find it TRUE
so when god is talking to someone
he's giving up the Truth of things, freely
the truth of things freely, that apparently those who don't talk to god can't access
and this is why sometimes "some guy" mediates
and furthermore, when god is communicating to a person who is honest and whole, this basically means that the person IS God.
the same way your DNA IS you, or your heart and brain IS you.
does simple psychology explain how a human mind can mysteriously know things?
kinda like those people who suddenly know how to speak foreign languages for no reason, or play the piano without lessons, only it applies to way of living life, rather than language or music.
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Xanthas
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002527 - 08/27/06 08:26 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Again, God tries to talk to all of us, but some of us who don't know how to listen can only hear him through someone else.
But... He's GOD for god's sake. What with the omnipotence thing, couldn't he just wave one of his six hands and say "hi" once in a while? If he wants to be heard, and he has such power, how could we block him out? Hell, I can't block out my little brother sometimes, God should be far, far harder to silence.
If this God guy is so cool, couldn't he come by occasionally for a barbeque?
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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
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Icelander
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002531 - 08/27/06 08:27 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Again, God tries to talk to all of us, but some of us who don't know how to listen can only hear him through someone else.
How do you know God tries to talk to all of us? You can only know what happens to you and try to interpet that.
This just sounds like ego to me. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Xanthas]
#6002538 - 08/27/06 08:30 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Xanthas said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Again, God tries to talk to all of us, but some of us who don't know how to listen can only hear him through someone else.
But... He's GOD for god's sake. What with the omnipotence thing, couldn't he just wave one of his six hands and say "hi" once in a while? If he wants to be heard, and he has such power, how could we block him out? Hell, I can't block out my little brother sometimes, God should be far, far harder to silence.
If this God guy is so cool, couldn't he come by occasionally for a barbeque?
Perhaps your idea of God is too culturally influenced, and you make demands of God that do not correspond to what actually God is.
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Diploid
Cuban
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 Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002542 - 08/27/06 08:31 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Or maybe you're too quick to dismiss what God tells you, and don't recognize it as God.
Maybe, but I HAVE tried. And tried and tried. I just don't allow self-deception any possibility where such important communication is involved. And I just don't buy that God would be so powerful yet so utterly unable to talk to me. Doesn't make any sense to me.
Again, God tries to talk to all of us, but some of us who don't know how to listen can only hear him through someone else.
Again, we're back to square one. If God wants to talk to me, why doesn't he talk to me? Why all the rigmarole, all the indirection, all the complication, especially with such monumentally important messages?
Blaming this on me (because I don't know how to listen) makes no sense. If God has a message for me, he surely can find a way to get that message to me, clearly and definitively. Anything else is as likely a product of psychology and wishful thinking as the real McCoy.
So, either there is no such message or God is playing stupid games. Either way, I want nothing to do with Him.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Xanthas
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002549 - 08/27/06 08:34 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Quote:
Xanthas said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Again, God tries to talk to all of us, but some of us who don't know how to listen can only hear him through someone else.
But... He's GOD for god's sake. What with the omnipotence thing, couldn't he just wave one of his six hands and say "hi" once in a while? If he wants to be heard, and he has such power, how could we block him out? Hell, I can't block out my little brother sometimes, God should be far, far harder to silence.
If this God guy is so cool, couldn't he come by occasionally for a barbeque?
Perhaps your idea of God is too culturally influenced, and you make demands of God that do not correspond to what actually God is.
Define god for me then please?
The most prevalent concept of god I've encountered is someone/thing that is:
Omnipotent
Omniscient
Omnibenevolent
Able/willing to speak with some people.
Which is rather incompatible with the universe at large.
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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
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tak
geo's henchman
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002551 - 08/27/06 08:35 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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he may not want to talk to you :P
and who is to say god is a person, and not something hardcoded into our genetics as we evolved over the course of time on this earth? Cant spirituality be enbedded into us like instict?
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The DJ's took pills to stay awake and play for seven days.
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Icelander
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: tak]
#6002557 - 08/27/06 08:38 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you ask me we certainly could do without the term God. I can't get over the feeling that those who use it are talking about someone very much like themselves, no matter what they claim.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Diploid
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Icelander]
#6002560 - 08/27/06 08:40 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires. -- Susan B. Anthony
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Xanthas
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: tak]
#6002561 - 08/27/06 08:40 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
root-ninja-tak said:
he may not want to talk to you :P
I think so too.
Quote:
root-ninja-tak said:
and who is to say god is a person, and not something hardcoded into our genetics as we evolved over the course of time on this earth? Cant spirituality be enbedded into us like instict?
There was an interesting news flurry a while back (year or two ago) about this very subject. Some articles in some magazines called it "the god gene" which the guy who wrote his paper later said was a mistake, due to the fact that it's unlikely that one gene would cause such a complex behaviour.
So the god-shaped hole in people is actually a series of nucleic acids. Thus, god is shaped like nucleic acids.
I've figured out what God looks like! How neat!
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If you don't ask the question, you always get it wrong.
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002562 - 08/27/06 08:40 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Maybe, but I HAVE tried. And tried and tried. I just don't allow self-deception any possibility where such important communication is involved. And I just don't buy that God would be so powerful yet so utterly unable to talk to me. Doesn't make any sense to me.
I think you're too hung up on the idea of God being omnipotent in the classical sense. Try and get over that. It's not even in the Bible(Christianity borrowed the idea of omnipotence from Aristotle). The universe exists as a finite, and therefore imperfect, manifestation of God. Insights into God's perfection can come, but it's very subtle. If you're looking for something obvious and undeniable, it's not going to happen. That's not how God works. God is found within. The skies aren't going to part and reveal some big bearded man in the clouds.
Quote:
If God has a message for me, he surely can find a way to get that message to me, clearly and definitively.
What makes you think God necessarily has message for you?
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Diploid
Cuban
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 Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Xanthas]
#6002575 - 08/27/06 08:44 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Something I wrote here a couple years ago that's apropos:
Religion and other faith-based belief systems are widespread. Almost every culture and society has some flavor of creation mythology and God concept. The reason these ideas are so common is because they have a neurological (not mystical) origin.
First some neurology background:
One of the most ancient structures in the human brain is the amygdala buried deep inside the head in the temporal lobe of the brain. The amygdala gives rise to fear and aggression. When a lower animal wants something, it takes it through aggression triggered by the amygdala.
Humans and other higher vertebrates filter this aggression through the evolution of the cerebral cortex - the outer convoluted wrapper of the brain with a characteristic folded appearance. The cortex is where cooperation and consciousness occurs in vertebrates and where higher thinking and language occurs in humans. It is the cortex that allows wolves living in packs to cooperate and groups of humans to cooperate and in so doing, to become a successful species; where one animal could not hunt a larger animal, several cooperating could. Through mediation of the amygdala's aggression by the cortex's higher functions, humans form cooperative societies and other social structures that benefit us.
This theme of an ancient part of the brain mediated by a modern part of the brain is repeated in the Thalamus. The Thalamus is a sort of switch board that controls which neuron signals are emotionally salient and which are trivial. It's the Thalamus that brings to your conscious awareness the red light at the intersection in front of you while automatically filtering out the parked cars by the side of the road.
The Thalamus also regulates the intensity of the emotional response you have to events. For example, seeing a pretty flower is cause for a smile, but seeing a loved one die is cause for a much stronger response. Causing an appropriate emotional response to stimuli is one of the Thalamus' functions.
Without the Thalamus, our consciousness would be flooded with so much information and intense emotions that we would be unable to function, and this is exactly what happens in people with temporal lobe epilepsy (TLE).
Now the beef:
When a patient with TLE has a seizure, they experience intense religious auras. They have the sensation that they are God or are being visited by God. They feel like they're one with the cosmos and often say things like "Finally, I see and understand everything". TLE seizures are runaway religious thoughts, and this ascribing enormous emotional significance to every minutia is essentially a religious experience.
In neurologically healthy people, these thoughts are regulated by the Thalamus; their religious thoughts and emotions are down-regulated to levels that allow them to function, but in patients with TLE, when the epileptic seizure occurs, the amygdala begins to fire off a cascade of signals indiscriminately. The nearby thalamus, also affected by the seizure, is unable to mediate and the result is a welling up of bizarre, inappropriate emotions about everything. A flower, or a fire hydrant, or a rock all seems as supremely important a parent or close friend and elicit inappropriate intense emotions that render the patient delusional and unable to function.
All this begs the question of why would evolution have given rise to these structures in our brain associated with religion. There is no definitive answer, but a reasonable explanation is that, like the structures that mediate aggression and give rise to cooperation thus lending to our success as a species, structures that predilect us toward belief in a supreme being contribute to the stability of society by way of fear.
This is evidenced by the way many religions have used our built-in neurological desire for a supreme being to control and subjugate us throughout history.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Diploid
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002598 - 08/27/06 08:51 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you're looking for something obvious and undeniable, it's not going to happen. That's not how God works.
Maybe, but lots of people who claim they're spoken to by God claim otherwise. Lots of people have epiphanies. Lots of people have divine dreams and other forms of communications. How do I know you're right about all this and they're wrong? See the dilemma?
What makes you think God necessarily has message for you?
Because, again, those 'in the know' keep telling me that he does. They keep telling me that he has messages for EVERYONE, not just me. Who am I to believe?
I can't spend years tracking down every different version of the God story. Life isn't long enough for that.
I feel like I've just driven into a hoe-dunk town with different driving rules than the rest of the world but with no road signs, and a cop is waiting behind the next billboard just waiting to throw me in jail when I unknowingly break one of the driving rules.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Gomp
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 Effortless effort! [Re: Diploid]
#6002633 - 08/27/06 09:08 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
He does. You just have to learn how to listen.
See, there's the problem. I've tried to listen. I tried for a decade. Nothing happened that couldn't be attributed to simple psychology. Nothing at all.
Either those who hear God are delusional, or God doesn't like me.
Still, this doesn't answer my question of why God would try to talk to me THROUGH some guy, but not directly.
Stop trying...
Let "God" make an[/the] effort. ;p
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Icelander
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002638 - 08/27/06 09:10 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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It's just as easy for me to say there is no God and there is no one talkin.
What makes me wrong and a true believer right?
IMO God is the misunderstanding of primitive intelligence, still trapped in it's cultural patterns. All unusual phenomena are interpreted as "God", so as to stay in the safe zone of culture.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002639 - 08/27/06 09:10 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Let me tell you a secret: God's "message" isn't so much a message as it is a simple awareness. And one doesn't really "hear" God, but rather feel God. I think that in looking for psychological or neurological explanations, you're neglecting the possibility that your mind is a part of God.
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Diploid
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 Re: Effortless effort! [Re: Gomp]
#6002642 - 08/27/06 09:14 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Stop trying...
Let "God" make an[/the] effort. ;p
Been there, done that. It didn't work.
Next...
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Diploid
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002654 - 08/27/06 09:18 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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And one doesn't really "hear" God, but rather feel God.
Then count yourself lucky that you are one of the chosen who can hear cuz I've tried everything you're suggesting, and everything dozens of others have suggested, and everything I've read has suggested. I've meditated sober and gone places with drugs many haven't even herd of. I've done it all.
If I discount everything which could just as likely be psychology as divine: Net sum = zero.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Silversoul
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Re: Effortless effort! [Re: Diploid]
#6002656 - 08/27/06 09:18 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Let me tell you a joke:
There was a man who was drowning in the ocean. A rescue helicopter comes to save him, but he says "No thanks, I trust God to save me."
A second helicopter comes, and again he refuses, saying he trusts in God to save him.
A third helicopter comes to save him, and once again, he tells them that he trusts God to save him.
He drowns and goes to heaven. When he gets there, he says "God, why didn't you rescue me?"
God says, "Gee, I don't know what went wrong. I sent three helicopters to come get you."
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002660 - 08/27/06 09:19 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
If I discount everything which could just as likely be psychology as divine: Net sum = zero.
That's your problem: You're making an unnecessary distinction between the mind and God. They are connected, and you refuse to see it.
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Diploid
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 Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002666 - 08/27/06 09:21 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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That's your problem
Right. When I can't hear God despite monumental effort, it's my fault. God can't fix things for me. He'd rather just sit around and giggle as I struggle. 
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002673 - 08/27/06 09:24 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Are you listening to a damn word I'm saying? Don't quote me out of context. If you can't listen to me, it's no wonder you can't listen to God.
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Diploid
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002677 - 08/27/06 09:25 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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You're saying that God is talking to me, but it's my fault I'm not hearing. At least that's how I read it.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Shroomerious
OO
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002681 - 08/27/06 09:27 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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My opinion is that most probably, god as some of us think that understand him/her/it, is just a concept stretched way too far. It would have been anyway because of its(the concepts) nature.
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002684 - 08/27/06 09:28 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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From what I read, your "efforts" to listen to God did lead to some results, which you promptly dismissed as mere products of your own psychology. I was simply trying to your explain that simply because something occurs in the brain does not mean that it doesn't come from God.
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Gomp
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Re: Effortless effort! [Re: Diploid]
#6002685 - 08/27/06 09:30 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
Stop trying...
Let "God" make an[/the] effort. ;p
Been there, done that. It didn't work.
Next...
Hahaha...
Quote:
Diploid said:
He does. You just have to learn how to listen.
See, there's the problem. I've tried to listen. I tried for a decade. Nothing happened that couldn't be attributed to simple psychology. Nothing at all.
Either those who hear God are delusional, or God doesn't like me.
Still, this doesn't answer my question of why God would try to talk to me THROUGH some guy, but not directly.
Anyways. never mind it then!
My bad!
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Disclaimer!?
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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 Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002690 - 08/27/06 09:31 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
You're saying that God is talking to me, but it's my fault I'm not hearing. At least that's how I read it.
What is with this blaming?
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Diploid
Cuban
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002707 - 08/27/06 09:37 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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From what I read, your "efforts" to listen to God did lead to some results, which you promptly dismissed as mere products of your own psychology. I was simply trying to your explain that simply because something occurs in the brain does not mean that it doesn't come from God.
We're on the same page here.
What you don't understand about me is that I DO NOT allow that something which MIGHT be real, IS real. If there is doubt, then it lands in the "I don't know for sure" basket, and that might as well have not happened.
God must know this about me; he created me, did He not? Why must he play these games? Why does he ALWAYS leave room for doubt?
Does he or does he not not want me to hear the message? He's incompetent if he can't get the message through my thick skull, which he created that way.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Shroomerious
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Gomp]
#6002710 - 08/27/06 09:39 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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+ I can't believe that some of you take some subjective interpretation of how god, whatever that may be, is communicating with you, to produce an objective outcome.
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Gomp
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002717 - 08/27/06 09:41 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Reminds me of an old post...
Edited by Gomp (08/27/06 09:42 PM)
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PhanTomCat
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002730 - 08/27/06 09:44 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
If I discount everything which could just as likely be psychology as divine: Net sum = zero.
In your opinion, is there ANYTHING in the subjective human experience that could NOT be likely dismissed as psychology or self-deception....?
>^;;^<
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I'll be your midnight French Fry.... 
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Diploid
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 Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#6002741 - 08/27/06 09:46 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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No, nothing, but some things are supported by a large enough quantity of consistent subjective observations, and backed by a large enough pool of seemingly unrelated but consistent orthogonal observations, that when taken as a whole are enough to convince me.
Not so for God stuff. Not by a long shot.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002744 - 08/27/06 09:47 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
From what I read, your "efforts" to listen to God did lead to some results, which you promptly dismissed as mere products of your own psychology. I was simply trying to your explain that simply because something occurs in the brain does not mean that it doesn't come from God.
We're on the same page here.
What you don't understand about me is that I DO NOT allow that something which MIGHT be real, IS real. If there is doubt, then it lands in the "I don't know for sure" basket, and that might as well have not happened.
God must know this about me; he created me, did He not? Why must he play these games? Why does he ALWAYS leave room for doubt?
Does he or does he not not want me to hear the message? He's incompetent if he can't get the message through my thick skull, which he created that way.
I think you demand too much of God. It's easy to think that God can do anything, and therefore must have the ability to reveal Godself to us in a way which defies the laws of the universe. But if the universe comes from God, then it makes sense that rather than defying the laws of the universe, God works through them. I also don't think it matters much to God whether you believe or not. If you listen to God, it's for your own benefit, not for God's. Go ahead and doubt God all you want, but if you ignore God when God speaks to you, then stop complaining about how God won't talk to you.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002747 - 08/27/06 09:48 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Are you listening to a damn word I'm saying? Don't quote me out of context. If you can't listen to me, it's no wonder you can't listen to God.
God damn it. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Diploid
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002759 - 08/27/06 09:51 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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If you listen to God, it's for your own benefit, not for God's.
So, again I'm left out in the cold. I can't hear God (my fault, not God's) so I lose out on the benefit of the message.
Doesn't seem very Godly to do that to one who seeks him with good intentions.
Oh, but of course, God isn't doing this to me. It's my fault. Nevermind that he created me to be this way.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002768 - 08/27/06 09:52 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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From your own description, it sounds as though you have heard God, but refuse to listen. No one's leaving you out in the cold but yourself.
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Icelander
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002778 - 08/27/06 09:57 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Bad Diploid!
Go to Hell, do not pass go.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Icelander]
#6002786 - 08/27/06 10:00 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Good and bad have nothing to do with it.
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Diploid
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002787 - 08/27/06 10:00 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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it sounds as though you have heard God, but refuse to listen.
Correction: I've heard SOMETHING that could be psychology or could be God, but I am INCAPABLE of de facto accepting that it is God. I'm not wired that way.
God MADE me incapable. Stop blaming me.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Shroomerious
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002792 - 08/27/06 10:02 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Lol it's like Silversoul is ignoring every solid point Diploid makes. If you want to convince yourself that what you are saying is true that's alright man but in a spirituality and philosophy forum you will have to do a lot more than "you have heard god but refused to listen take it from me kinda thing".
How about you elaborate on the way god speaks to you..?
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Silversoul
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002794 - 08/27/06 10:02 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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You are not incapable. Just unwilling. Your limitations are your own doing.
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Silversoul
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Quote:
Shroomerious said:
How about you elaborate on the way god speaks to you..?
It's an inner voice. We can all hear it(at least everyone I've ever met can), but we often ignore it, rather than learning how to listen to it.
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Shroomerious
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002811 - 08/27/06 10:07 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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And what does that voice tell you? Your answer doesn't quite fit "elaborating".
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Silversoul
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It "tells" of a higher state of being. We can access it through meditation, deep prayer, or the psychedelic exerience. It's hard to elaborate too much, because it's beyond words. The different attempts people have made to try and elaborate on it have resulted in the differentiation of this awareness into the world's different religions. And we've seen what that's done. So I'd rather let people experience it for themselves than try to explain my individual framework of interpretation.
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PhanTomCat
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 Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002828 - 08/27/06 10:13 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Diploid said:
No, nothing, but some things are supported by a large enough quantity of consistent subjective observations, and backed by a large enough pool of seemingly unrelated but consistent orthogonal observations, that when taken as a whole are enough to convince me.
But what you are saying is that God could come to you, slap you in the face, give you a message,
and your experience would be automatically dismissed as psychology or self-deception because
no one else has ever had the same observed subjective slap in the face before....?
It sounds like your interpretation of such an event/experience is already predetermined as shit-canned, is it not....?
>^;;^<
P.S. Congratz~ on the modship....! 
--------------------
I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Icelander
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002844 - 08/27/06 10:17 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Good and bad have nothing to do with it.
Kidding of course.
But as to being left out in the cold, I doubt that could be said about Dip if you know anything about his life.
He seems one of the happiest and well adjusted of our motley crew.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,224
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#6002849 - 08/27/06 10:19 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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But what you are saying is that God could come to you, slap you in the face, give you a message,
and your experience would be automatically dismissed as psychology or self-deception because
no one else has ever had the same observed subjective slap in the face before....?
Pretty much. If I'm the only one who felt the slap, and if later there was no mark on my face, and no other evidence of him having been there, then we're back where we started.
Now, if you and a few others were in the room with me and also got slapped, and if we later all had a hand print on our face, and if my web cam caught the incident, I'd be on my way to light a candle in the local church before you could say 'metaphysics'.
It's simple. Some threshold quantity of evidence is required to convince me. I won't buy the Brooklyn Bridge from you unless you show me the deed. Your word isn't good enough.
So far, I've found no where near enough evidence to even take things seriously.
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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Shroomerious
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6002886 - 08/27/06 10:29 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Do you understand that what you are saying is extremely subjective or do you think that you have solved the single greatest mystery in the history and by the way supporting it with absolutely no info? You can believe what you want ofcourse. This is a discussion though. So you don't think that this "voice" is produced by the human brain as a result of millions of life experiences and it is something induced, an input from somewhere else? What I mean is that there are infinite maybes to identifying the origin of the voice you are feeling and you, born in a world where religion is carved onto your brain from day 1 from family, world, media etc choose to understand that voice as god is not subjective?
I understand what you are trying to describe as a voice, as something extra that could not have come from you, most people experienced that including me, but "maybe" does not fit in an objective description. Also, there are lots of reasons why religion was created, probably main one for me is humans insecurity and need for someone good to protect us. How about if that thing was a sadist? How about that? It wouldn't make you feel right and for that reason you wouldn't believe it most probably.
In our world today there is a lot of shit happening but also lots of good things. It's easy to live in a subjective sentimental lie and very difficult and psychologically demanding to continue to search for the real, objective truth. It's a choice that most of us have to make.
For the time being I quit searching. Because the place I ended up was not nice. Chaotic I'd say.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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True, chaos is not "nice" IMO. But maybe the Universe wants to know if you can stand a glimpse. It's a challenge worth living out.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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PhanTomCat
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 Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002919 - 08/27/06 10:38 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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It would be funny if not ironic if you slept tonight with your hand under your face and
it left a handprint for you to discover when you woke up and looked in the mirror tomorrow morning....! 
>^;;^<
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I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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Shroomerious
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: PhanTomCat]
#6002922 - 08/27/06 10:39 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nice.
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Gomp
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 Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Gomp]
#6002947 - 08/27/06 10:45 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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"What is true for the majority, is not always coherent with what is the truth for all.."
-Unknown 
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002966 - 08/27/06 10:48 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Is he deliberately trying to confuse us
God is a crazy woman.
I guess you didn't get the memo...
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wrestler_az
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6002976 - 08/27/06 10:50 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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ive "heard" god speak to me on a few occasions. this is what he had to say
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Shroomerious
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6002988 - 08/27/06 10:52 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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These are some nice pictures of some nice pieces of land!Nice or not ofcourse is subjective.
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Telepylus
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6002991 - 08/27/06 10:53 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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yea, god says cool stuff.
widen your vocabulary and comprehension skills.
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Law of Love
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PhanTomCat
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 Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6002994 - 08/27/06 10:54 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
wrestler_az said:
ive "heard" god speak to me on a few occasions. this is what he had to say
.
.
THAT was a good weekend.... 
>^;;^<
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I'll be your midnight French Fry....
"The most important things in life that are often ignored, are the things that one cannot see...."
>^;;^<
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
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yes, subjective.
there is nothing objective about gods voice.
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Shroomerious
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6003013 - 08/27/06 10:58 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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...about gods voice...whatever get you through the night...
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
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what gets you through the night?
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6003027 - 08/27/06 11:01 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Sleep.
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
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--------------------
how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Shroomerious
OO
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6003040 - 08/27/06 11:03 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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It normaly is a couple of good friends. It's not easy though. The problem with me is that I can't just enforce some subjective concept in my mind as an objective truth and believe it. I know, that probably, it would make me feel a little better about this fucked up world but I can't.
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
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why feel the need to make it objective? it only has to be true to you...
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Gomp
¡(Bound to·(O))be free!
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Quote:
MushmanTheManic said:
Sleep.
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Shroomerious
OO
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6003087 - 08/27/06 11:12 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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...to make you feel good. Is that what you are saying? Believe anything, any subjective concept that makes you feel good?
I don't know why I have that need. I suppose that's my character. To want to know every detail about how some important stuff for the world work. And to do that succesfully I suppose I make a subconscious compromise.
Really I don't know man. I can't live in a lie. I want to know the truth, if there is one, or nothing. Some kind of "make it or break it" thing.
Anyway, I really admire your ability to believe that about god. But to clear things, you are saying that what you believe is not objective and you don't really care if it is. Then why, some guys with your point of view are trying to convince some of us about something entirely subjective?
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
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im not trying to convince you of anything, except for the fact that issues pertaining to god are entirely subjective, which i think we have already come to agreement on. we all need to find our own way of comunication with god. there is no "truth", so there is no lie. your relationship with god is what ever you feel to be correct, even if that means believing that one doesnt exist.
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Shroomerious
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6003175 - 08/27/06 11:36 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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I never said that I believe that god, whatever that may be, doesn't exist. What I am saying is that I simply don't know and until I find out, I will not be adhering to any lie however comfortable it makes me feel.
Your 2 statements contradict each other. Saying that there is no truth is an objective statement. You also say that issues pertaining to god are entirely subjective. These 2 don't go together.
I can only believe in possibilities, and the possibility of a god however stated so far by so many religions, books I red, exploration of myself, is yet so low in my opinion, thus not making me believe in a certain "god".
All I say is that "I don't know" and that if you search too deep for the "real truth", if that exists, you will not like where you will end up, so it is better to stay in your minds fairytale. And where is it that you end up? In absolute chaos. Infinity. Where you started. Subjectivity.
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Edited by Shroomerious (08/27/06 11:37 PM)
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wrestler_az
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no, i think they fit quite well. there is no truth, because of the subjective nature of the topic. everyone can have a different belief and still remain correct. and i never said that you said..... what the hell, i give up.
there really is no end to discussions like this. we could talk in circles for days and end up right back where we started.
god is what you make it.
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Shroomerious
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6003237 - 08/27/06 11:54 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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If god is what you make it then god by your definition is a subjective concept. I think we agree in that I understand what you are saying. But my argument was about the other guy who was trying to convince diploid that the "voice" he felt was god etc.
Truth is I prefer the subjective(your) definition of god to the narrow minded falsly objective of the catholic church for example or any other church for that matter. And the fact that we agree that it is subjective means that...well...we agree.That's nice. But unfortunately most people have most probably a very wrong belief that they know what god is objectively.
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 10,663
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
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that is pretty much the reason i fell out of the whole organized religion thing. i was raised with a very objective truth attitude as to what and who god is. as i grew older, and started thinking for myself...i realized i didnt need the middle man. and i felt that my relationship with this idea needed to be a bit more personal than the masses would have it.
the truth is, and this is an objective truth....
none of us really know.
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Shroomerious
OO
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6003295 - 08/28/06 12:12 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Wait you got 2 very important points here which we perfectly agree on.
1st: God is a subjective idea. You rejected the kind of idololatric(I am not sure if this word exists) and falsly objective truth enforced really to you from the minute you were born, so good for you! I did the same.
2nd: None of us really know.
So beleive in everything you want, if it makes you happy.
We agree then? 
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 10,663
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
Last seen: 3 hours, 50 minutes
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sounds good to me.
time for a beer 
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Shroomerious
OO
Registered: 07/27/03
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: wrestler_az]
#6003332 - 08/28/06 12:19 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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time for some will ferrell and welshly arms hotel lol
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mick
living in perverty
Registered: 07/06/04
Posts: 7,948
Loc: hb, cali
Last seen: 13 hours, 31 minutes
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I heard about God before... sounds like a cool dude.. dunno about the hell and stuff though.. its like
a guy seems cool hey hes giving me all this free stuf... like life and and responsiveness.. and then hes telling me through other people not to do certain things... man but i like those things, and ill go ot hell if i do those things..
sometimes i feel polluted after meaningless sex.
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http://kittiesntitties.tumblr.com/
notapillow said: "you are going about this endeavor all wrong. clear your mind of useless fear and concern. buy the ticket, take the ride, and all that.... "
ChrisWho said: "It's all about the journey, not the destination."
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paulie_walnuts1
Stranger
Registered: 05/13/05
Posts: 508
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6003616 - 08/28/06 01:49 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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God is a douchebag by anyone's standards. Folks just afraid to admit it.
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capliberty
Stranger
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everyone is biased to their own argument, everyone wants acknowledgment that their version of reality and the super natural is the best version, I'd say quit trying to convince each other because its not going to happen, I'm sure everyone is pretty set in their ways,
I know its kind of hard to respect peoples beliefs when it seems irrational or short sighted but maybe even within their short sightedness they serve as a function to keep a certain balance within the integrity of life. Obviously whatever life is, their is an unknown factor, in which everybody should acknowledge, anyone who says life isn't a mystery and has all the answers, has it sumed up in nutshell is a complete idiot.
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6003907 - 08/28/06 08:46 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
He does. You just have to learn how to listen.
The most effective communicator is one whose message is specifically tailored for the intended audience to be able to receive it. Anyone who wishes to be understood by the person receiving the communication will ensure that they express themselves in the appropriate manner.
Perhaps "god" just needs to learn how to talk.
  
Peace.
--------------------
  
 
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
 
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6003947 - 08/28/06 09:24 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Silversoul said:
Let me tell you a secret: God's "message" isn't so much a message as it is a simple awareness.
Awareness is awareness. Whatever sense of identity you attach to awareness is simply a reflection of your own identity. "god" is a useless concept.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Deviate
newbie
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i've explained to you why god isn't a useless concept several times already. just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it is useless to other people.
Edited by Deviate (08/28/06 11:38 AM)
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6004259 - 08/28/06 12:39 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Holy explosion of messages here. I didn't read them all, but I will redo, after I give you a very simple solution for your problem, dip:
As I have conceptualized it, g*d wants us to decide for ourself, meaning, he/she/it wants us, to develop our free will.
THIS is hardly possible in honesty, if g*d would show up to them, who have to be proved.
He would love to see us return to him by our own personal free will and perception of 'reality' not 'directly' commanded to us by him as some 'personal' influence. So he shows us 'only' his creation (and our own power related to this) and lets us figure out how and why that works. Then, if someone gets near to the perception of him by regarding of reality, he will start to communicate. He even starts to communicate, if someone is in danger to fall apart too far of him, but then, this person almost never listens anymore.
I think, that solves your misery 
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Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Silversoul said:
Let me tell you a secret: God's "message" isn't so much a message as it is a simple awareness.
Awareness is awareness. Whatever sense of identity you attach to awareness is simply a reflection of your own identity. "god" is a useless concept.
Peace.
While I wouldn't quite say the concept of "God" is useless, I'll admit that this presence/being/awareness can go by many names, and that it can sometimes be distracting or counterproductive for some people to think of it as God. That's ok though. It doesn't need a name.
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DuppyConqueror
headingsomewhere
Registered: 08/19/06
Posts: 35
Loc: My own inner Teahupoo
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6004474 - 08/28/06 02:20 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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God is God is Allah is Anne Heche is a pack of cigarettes is everything you've ever thought about the face staring back at you in the mirror
...or maybe not.
?
Edit: Hah! I wrote this post about a minute after the peak of an intense salvia trip. It had me in stitches at the time, but looking back it may not be the most relevant of insights.
Edited by DuppyConqueror (08/28/06 03:57 PM)
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Droz
Love of Life
Registered: 10/16/00
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Loc: Floorida
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So is that why we sufffer? Is that why there is disease and illnesses?
Because God doesn't choose to talk to everyone, some go by with no knowledge of God whatsoever. So some hear his voice, and others are just too stupid to listen? I don't think so! If you surely think you are communicating with god, I with no doubt have to say you have a mental illness, for you are only communicating with yourself. Just cause you think you can communicate with god, doesn't mean it's real.
I think I can
I think I can
God is a delusion of the mind.
Peace,
Droz
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Evolution of Time.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Droz]
#6004666 - 08/28/06 03:29 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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"God is a delusion of the mind."
The mind is part of g*d, a receiver and transmitter, but we often can not and are not allowed to grasp it.
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capliberty
Stranger
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6004688 - 08/28/06 03:41 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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So I guess stuff appeared out of thin air is an adequate scientific explanation.
I think there is a conscious designer behind the design, but I wouldn't say this consciousness is some being of any type. Its more like conscious cosmic energy that formed creation through mathmatical means. But hey I think existence has the capacity to be anything IMO.
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: capliberty]
#6004714 - 08/28/06 03:52 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Yip, it doesn't matter. 'Out of thin air' is not adequate, but we lack the means to scientifically measure or describe the cause yet. We only can 'feel' it (meaning: perceive with some 'irrational means').
"But hey I think existence has the capacity to be anything IMO. "
Especially this existence called conscious life, imho 
(I get [edit:/become] dull, I get [edit:/become] quiet )
Edited by BlueCoyote (08/28/06 04:18 PM)
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DuppyConqueror
headingsomewhere
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Loc: My own inner Teahupoo
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6004745 - 08/28/06 04:05 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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The word "God" and the linguistic concepts attached to that word are meaningless. God will not be discovered or proven not to exist in a verbal debate about "God". "God" exists because it is a word we all recognize.
"God" is not what matters. Love matters; laughter matters. If you can't find beauty in the world around you, if you look at yourself and see only flaws, if you can't weep for the sorrows of another person or cry tears of joy, then you ain't livin'!
Smile on your sisters and brothers.
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capliberty
Stranger
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6004751 - 08/28/06 04:09 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Nothing dull dude, I just laid down an argument for those imperialists, their explanation for things coming into existence out of cause and condition is weak IN MY OPinon. As adamant as those that deny the existent of god, their argument is just as weak in denying such a phenomena. What makes them so dam sure that there is no god? Their always quick to clown the argument by suggesting that god is some being in the sky or something to that nature. I don't think any religion really supports this picture. But so what, their could be supernatural beings transending space and time.
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Shroomerious
OO
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: capliberty]
#6004831 - 08/28/06 04:35 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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-God is a subjective idea. Maybe.
-None of us really know. Maybe.
-Believe in anything you want as long as you want to be happy and this makes you happy. Probably.
These are the facts.(Hey, facts and subjectivity don't go together!...well I guess they kinda do..!).
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,929
Loc: underbelly
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: capliberty]
#6004933 - 08/28/06 05:08 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
capliberty said:
Nothing dull dude, I just laid down an argument for those imperialists, their explanation for things coming into existence out of cause and condition is weak IN MY OPinon. As adamant as those that deny the existent of god, their argument is just as weak in denying such a phenomena. What makes them so dam sure that there is no god? Their always quick to clown the argument by suggesting that god is some being in the sky or something to that nature. I don't think any religion really supports this picture. But so what, their could be supernatural beings transending space and time.
"They" aren't saying there is no God. "They" are witholding conclusion until evidence is presented. Constantly in this thread I hear person after person telling us all what God thinks and what God does as if they are his personal spokesperson and somehow know his mind. To me it's all wishful thinking and programmed behavior. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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capliberty
Stranger
Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Icelander]
#6004988 - 08/28/06 05:27 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
Quote:
capliberty said:
Nothing dull dude, I just laid down an argument for those imperialists, their explanation for things coming into existence out of cause and condition is weak IN MY OPinon. As adamant as those that deny the existent of god, their argument is just as weak in denying such a phenomena. What makes them so dam sure that there is no god? Their always quick to clown the argument by suggesting that god is some being in the sky or something to that nature. I don't think any religion really supports this picture. But so what, their could be supernatural beings transending space and time.
"They" aren't saying there is no God. "They" are witholding conclusion until evidence is presented. Constantly in this thread I hear person after person telling us all what God thinks and what God does as if they are his personal spokesperson and somehow know his mind. To me it's all wishful thinking and programmed behavior.
Honestly I don't think their will be any evidence unless you look for it with an open mind. Also determining what people experience as wishful thinking and programmed behavior is jumping to conclusions, I personal don't know what everybody experiences, It seems like people experience a lot different things evidenced by many different topics of disscusion many of which I have no understanding of. I can't really determine for sure what people know, but I do know where you comming from, as alot religious people 'just know' with no rational behind it is completely bogus. But then again I don't know what revelations they've had in their lives.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,929
Loc: underbelly
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: capliberty]
#6005433 - 08/28/06 07:10 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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but I do know where you comming from,
I don't think so. 
I have always allowed for the possibility of a God. My best guess and preference are in another direction however. Just because I challenge those that claim to speak for God, I'm just doing what this forum is all about. Debating.
Without any proofs other than " I have experienced this so it must be true"; it's hard for myself, using my mind in a rational mode to accept that as definitive proof of a creator. And as I said before, the God most speak of sounds more like the president then some transcendental creator.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Shroomerious
OO
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Icelander]
#6005588 - 08/28/06 07:58 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Couldn't agree with you more man.
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capliberty
Stranger
Registered: 04/23/06
Posts: 1,949
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Icelander]
#6005720 - 08/28/06 08:50 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
but I do know where you comming from,
I don't think so.
I have always allowed for the possibility of a God. My best guess and preference are in another direction however. Just because I challenge those that claim to speak for God, I'm just doing what this forum is all about. Debating.
Without any proofs other than " I have experienced this so it must be true"; it's hard for myself, using my mind in a rational mode to accept that as definitive proof of a creator. And as I said before, the God most speak of sounds more like the president then some transcendental creator.
I don't care what you debate or what you accept as valid form of proof. That was never my point, I just said that I'm not so quick to dismiss the notion of god so readily, I never claimed any proof or that anyone else had any proof. Also I too feel that I'm objective and rational about jumping to conclusions on what I believe or on how others derive their conclusions, if this is not where your comming from then I guess I don't know what your talking about.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,929
Loc: underbelly
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: capliberty]
#6006079 - 08/28/06 10:34 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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I have never dismissed "easily" the notion of God. I have studied the subject deeply from many levels for many years. I have struggled to come to the conclusions I have and I have been on both sides of this issue.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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PsiTripper
Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 104
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Icelander]
#6006505 - 08/28/06 11:50 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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God is there, he is everywhere, including inside of us. just slow down and try to listen for him. listen inside yourself for him. many of us hurry around so much we don't take the time to listen, then we wonder where he is. you always have access to god, just don't think he's going to materialize right in front of you in human form and talk to you in english. i feel that no one else but yourself can tell you what god is. other people can however help you along the path.
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Music!
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Shroomerious
OO
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: PsiTripper]
#6006548 - 08/29/06 12:00 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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What you say you have identified as god, I have seen, listened and spared me the romantisism and passed. You want to talk objectively, better bring on some proof. You want to talk subjectively?Say so it's ok although we already talked about that and agreed.
But please, spare us the "riddles", "paraboles" and all these abstract outcomes. I, am sick and tired of hearing these things you said reffered to as "god".
We all feel that something extra that is sometimes very beatiful and seems to connect us all with everything but we don't rush into conclusions. We say a thousand maybes and a thousand other explanations.
So for which god are you talking?And are you trying to describe him objectively or subjectively. Assume for the sake of this debate that objectivity exists.
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PsiTripper
Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 104
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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i stated that i "feel" that no one but yourself can tell you what god is, i did not say "this is how it is people". everyone has to find truth for themselves. i was just stating how i found my truth. i recently stopped walking the line and saying my "maybes", and I'm happier for it.
i do like to stay open minded though, and I'm not trying to force my views on anyone. and in no way did i rush into a conclusion, this is something i found for myself after many years of trying to find it. it's not a conclusion for me, but a beginning.
my description was subjective, i have no kind of evidence that god is what i say he is, if that is what you are looking for. i don't think anyone can give you that. how could a discussion about God not be abstract? no one has any proof one way or the other.
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Music!
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niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: 
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Quote:
Shroomerious said:
How about you elaborate on the way god speaks to you..?
As a child when you went to take that piece of gum w/out paying. A tiny voice in the back of your head said "You should not do that.".....that was God talking to you.
When you got the urge to throw a snowball @ your sister.....that was god talking to you.
When you saw that hot chick at the mall and wanted to fuck her.....that was god talking to you.
When you stopped on your way home from work and bought your wife flowers......that was god talking to you.
It is called your conscience.
God is merely your free will exerting itself.
If you don't understand what god wants from you, then you don't know what you want out of life.
Many people choose to ignore god (themselves)......then wonder why they can't hear/understand what god wants from them.
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Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
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Shroomerious
OO
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: niteowl]
#6007231 - 08/29/06 06:22 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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I can't believe the definitions that you people give, your way of explaining them, but mostly, your interpretations. I will not bother answer to all that, what I said and agreed on with an open minded guy we debated yesterday is in record. That's all I have to say.
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Deviate]
#6007501 - 08/29/06 10:43 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
i've explained to you why god isn't a useless concept several times already. just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it is useless to other people.
Of course I don't understand the "god" concept, as the word does not represent any meaning. There, quite simply, is no consensus on the meaning of the word, and any discussion that arises that involves the word is doomed to ambiguity. Someone will say "god is this", and someone else says "well, god is that", and "this is what they meant god is", etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
The only purpose the concept serves is to confuse everyone, so perhaps it was created by a discordian. In terms of communication, it is useless.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,447
Loc: Between
Last seen: 15 hours, 12 minutes
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Only because we lack the words to describe the g*d concept, it is by far not useless for communication. At the opposite, it is a challenge to communicate about it.
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PsiTripper
Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 104
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6007714 - 08/29/06 12:21 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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god and faith is what you make it to be?
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Music!
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Deviate
newbie
Registered: 04/20/03
Posts: 2,135
Last seen: 7 hours, 5 minutes
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
Quote:
Deviate said:
i've explained to you why god isn't a useless concept several times already. just because you don't understand something, doesn't mean it is useless to other people.
Of course I don't understand the "god" concept, as the word does not represent any meaning. There, quite simply, is no consensus on the meaning of the word, and any discussion that arises that involves the word is doomed to ambiguity. Someone will say "god is this", and someone else says "well, god is that", and "this is what they meant god is", etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. etc.
The only purpose the concept serves is to confuse everyone, so perhaps it was created by a discordian. In terms of communication, it is useless.
Peace.
lots of words lack fixed, objective consensus definitions. that doesn't make them useless.
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,199
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Last seen: 23 hours, 31 minutes
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Deviate]
#6007849 - 08/29/06 12:56 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Deviate said:
lots of words lack fixed, objective consensus definitions. that doesn't make them useless.
"Lots of words" aren't words like "god".
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
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Obviously the word "god" is of no use to you. So by all means, stop using the word, and let those of us who find it useful continue to use it.
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,199
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Silversoul]
#6007928 - 08/29/06 01:18 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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I rarely use the word, beyond reference to others who have used it. So, in that sense, my usage is useful.
Obviously, people are going to find it useful. At the same time, one has to wonder why there is absolutely no productive discussion that centers around the word as some means to convey some idea.
Peace.
--------------------
If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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BlueCoyote
Beyond
Registered: 05/07/04
Posts: 5,447
Loc: Between
Last seen: 15 hours, 12 minutes
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6008099 - 08/29/06 02:26 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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I constantly get blamed by g*d, while he tries hiding from me and I always get a spot...
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cherokee
tennis shoes
Registered: 10/25/02
Posts: 41,169
Loc: Nationwide
Last seen: 8 hours, 49 minutes
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
I rarely use the word, beyond reference to others who have used it. So, in that sense, my usage is useful.
Obviously, people are going to find it useful. At the same time, one has to wonder why there is absolutely no productive discussion that centers around the word as some means to convey some idea.
Peace.
the subtle dance of the unbelievers and disbelievers will eventually unite earth in god consciousness
suffering will not end until god becomes a dead language
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MushmanTheManic
Stranger
Registered: 04/21/05
Posts: 4,587
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Quote:
fireworks_god said:
The only purpose the concept serves is to confuse everyone, so perhaps it was created by a discordian.
Twasn't me!
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Shroomerious
OO
Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: BlueCoyote]
#6009843 - 08/29/06 10:47 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
BlueCoyote said:
I constantly get blamed by g*d, while he tries hiding from me and I always get a spot...
LOL
Nice of you to remember "g*d" as we had it defined some months ago. Nice to see that someone actually got something from the debate we had.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,929
Loc: underbelly
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: PsiTripper]
#6011136 - 08/30/06 11:45 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
PsiTripper said:
God is there, he is everywhere, including inside of us. just slow down and try to listen for him. listen inside yourself for him. many of us hurry around so much we don't take the time to listen, then we wonder where he is. you always have access to god, just don't think he's going to materialize right in front of you in human form and talk to you in english. i feel that no one else but yourself can tell you what god is. other people can however help you along the path.
"Try and listen for HIM?" I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,199
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 23 hours, 31 minutes
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Icelander]
#6011175 - 08/30/06 12:05 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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He's talking about yo' momma.
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,929
Loc: underbelly
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You da one seems to be talkin bout me dead momma all de time. Maybe you got de ting for me dead momma. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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fireworks_god
SexyButt McDanger
Registered: 03/12/02
Posts: 24,199
Loc: Red Panda Village
Last seen: 23 hours, 31 minutes
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Icelander]
#6011299 - 08/30/06 12:54 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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No, I was talking about Joe Pesci, who, as you may recall, took over the position of yo' momma.
As far as whether or not I have a thing for Joe Pesci, I don't recall what he looks like, so I cannot clarify that matter.
Peace.
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If I should die this very moment
I wouldn't fear
For I've never known completeness
Like being here
Wrapped in the warmth of you
Loving every breath of you
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PsiTripper
Registered: 09/09/04
Posts: 104
Last seen: 3 years, 1 month
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Icelander]
#6012009 - 08/30/06 04:50 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
"Try and listen for HIM?" I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about.
when i typed that i thought someone might have that response. i do not believe God is a he or she, or can be defined in such a way. i just thought the practice of calling God a man was common place, and i thought it would be ok. i should try to get out of that habit. i should of been more careful with my wording. my mistake.
and if i'm not mistaken, wasn't Joe Pesci a disciple?
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Music!
Edited by PsiTripper (08/30/06 04:56 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,929
Loc: underbelly
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: PsiTripper]
#6013141 - 08/30/06 09:40 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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and if i'm not mistaken, wasn't Joe Pesci a disciple?
You are correct.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Diploid
Cuban
Registered: 01/09/03
Posts: 18,224
Loc: Rabbit Hole
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Icelander]
#6013243 - 08/30/06 10:11 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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Welp, this thread sure went into the weeds...
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Believe those who are seeking Truth. Doubt those who find it.
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signoffate
Only Human
Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 161
Loc: Where is here?
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: Diploid]
#6013937 - 08/31/06 12:36 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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What I receive is the spirit, I know it to be of my Lord.
I offer his words, "those with ears to hear, let them listen", Mark 4:9.
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Shroomerious
OO
Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: signoffate]
#6014140 - 08/31/06 01:44 AM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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...that's a nice bedtime story mate
...most probably
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signoffate
Only Human
Registered: 02/22/05
Posts: 161
Loc: Where is here?
Last seen: 6 years, 3 months
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nighty night
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Shroomerious
OO
Registered: 07/27/03
Posts: 534
Last seen: 2 years, 11 months
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Re: God's Disciples: WTF? [Re: signoffate]
#6016047 - 08/31/06 07:34 PM (6 years, 8 months ago) |
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not just yet..
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