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 Rahz
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 Who says PF tek? (rant) 
#5660995 - 05/22/06 07:10 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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First, PF is more contam prone than grains. Boiling jars = bad. Spending 30-40 bucks on a pressure cooker = good. I highly doubt there's anyone over the age of 18 that can't find a way to scrape together a few bucks for a pressure cooker. Beyond that, proper filter VS some holes over a layer of vermiculite? Better hope there's no draft.
Second, yield! 4 grain jars transfered to a couple gallons of straw will produce WAY WAY more shrooms than a bunch of tiny 1/2 pint cakes.
Third, cost. 10 bucks buys you enough bird seed and straw to produce pounds of mushrooms. The pressure cooker just payed for itself.
Fourth, effort. Who says PF is "easier" than grain jars? Going by yield, PF tek consumes so much more time it isn't funny. Besides, a small straw grow in a mono tub with a peat casing layer takes no more effort than a PF grow, and you get more shrooms anyway.
Finally, PF tek doesn't "prepare" a person for grains. The difficulty level of both methods is easy.
Let's look at the price of a grain/straw grow:
cheap 12 quart PC - 40
40lb bag of WBS - 6
40lb bag of peat - 5
4 foot bag of verm - 6
bale of hay - 5
12 quart jars - 10
Tyvek envelopes - free
tape - 2
40lb high cal lime - 6
large tub - 15
bag of polyfil - 2
meat thermometer - 3
Total = 100 dollars. Congratulations, you've just purchased enough supplies to grow 10+ pounds of mushrooms.
And PF grow?
12 1/2 pint jars - 10
2 bags BRF - 6
Bag of verm - 5
large tub - 15
bag of perlite - 3
optional humidifier - 30
Total cost - 39-69 dollars
If you spring for the humidifier, you've saved 30 bucks. If you opt to be a slave to mycelium and fan several time a day, you've saved about 60. Congratulations, you can look forward to a meager harvest and you'll be running to the store for BRF before too long.
I realize some people have special circumstances and can't store large bags of substrate, but this doesn't explain: newb = PF tek is best. PF has it's place, Hippie Chick uses PF for testing strains I believe. But why on earth would a newbie want to do PF tek? That's my rant.
Rahz
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rahz
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Edited by Rahz (05/22/06 07:11 PM)
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soulsizzle
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#5661055 - 05/22/06 07:35 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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I fully agree that grains are a far better choice than the PF-style cake method. However, there are numerous errors in your post. There is no reason you can't use a pressure cooker with the PF method. I always did. You can also use polyfill and/or tyvek with PF cakes as well.
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Rahz
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: soulsizzle]
#5661076 - 05/22/06 07:44 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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Yea, that's true, but them you're looseing the price advantage and PF becomes even less attractive.
Tyvek and polyfil are cheap enough, but they're not utilized in any PF style teks I've read.
Rahz
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rahz
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 Optx
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#5661080 - 05/22/06 07:47 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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wow...what a useless post
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mikeownow
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#5661083 - 05/22/06 07:49 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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no reason why u cant use them though
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Anonymous
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Post deleted by Anno [Re: mikeownow]
#5661099 - 05/22/06 07:54 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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Mycomyth
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#5661107 - 05/22/06 07:56 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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I agree, but I think the main thing is that the word isn't really out there about just how easy grains are.
Me though, I'm a quick study. I tried WBS after my first batch of eight cakes. My first cakes took nearly 40 days just to colonize 100%, whereas the grain is done in ~14 days (and that's in a jar twice the size of a PF!).
I can't think of anything I'd like better than for it to be widely known just how easy grain really is!
FWIW,
M
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Edited by Mycomyth (05/22/06 07:58 PM)
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Rahz
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Optx]
#5661119 - 05/22/06 07:59 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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haha, don't hold back, tell me how you really feel.
Useless? All a matter of opinion. If one newb reads it and decides to skip PF then I'd say it was usefull.
Beyond that, it's something I've thought of posting every time I see a newb asking for first grow advice, and then getting directed to a PF variant. So it was quite useful to me.
Sorry, I feel fine, have a good one 
Rahz
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rahz
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nuk1m
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: mikeownow]
#5661123 - 05/22/06 08:00 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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the hardest part of grain is getting the moisture content right.. pf tek is a little more forgiving on that aspect.
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Dragonaut
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#5661131 - 05/22/06 08:01 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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Who says anyone needs to grow pounds of mushrooms? PF Tek is all that most people need.
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splifner180
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: mikeownow]
#5661137 - 05/22/06 08:03 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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I have to admit, I spent a while reading the forums (maybe a month) before jumping in and I couldn't think of a reason to go pf-tek so I'm starting with grains. I can see a place for pf for people who (a) only want a small, low-budget grow and/or (b) don't yet have a PC.
I take that back, I can see a third reason; those who want to "try it out first" and spend pretty much nothing because most of the items in the pf method are sitting around the house already.
Just my 2c.
splif
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Rahz
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: ]
#5661167 - 05/22/06 08:11 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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>>>>What about if you got PF-TEK spawn to Poo then you get same results as you would using grain, right?
Yea, that's true. I've actually done it. Grain still wins on cost per jar, and prep time per quart. After I bought a PC I didn't see the point.
Rahz
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rahz
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Oatman2000
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#5661217 - 05/22/06 08:23 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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you got it rahz... grain is def cheeper.
but also, grain can fuck up alot. Been down these roads....
pf can fuk up too....
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mikeownow
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#5661219 - 05/22/06 08:25 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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Moisture content with grains can be prety hard. PF-Tek = measured out amounts with little room for error. As grains ooops I simmered to wich should only be 5 minutes. Or oops I didnt dry the grains off good enough. I use a paper towel to dry myn now and They still colonise slow in the jar. So grain is difficult.
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mikeownow
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: mikeownow]
#5661225 - 05/22/06 08:26 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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Oatman2000
HOW the hell did you contam so much lol!
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Rahz
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Dragonaut]
#5661227 - 05/22/06 08:26 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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>>>>Who says anyone needs to grow pounds of mushrooms? PF Tek is all that most people need.
Until they run out. A casual shroomer (which I am) could do 1 good bulk grow, and not have to worry about growing again for a year or three.
Shrooms for years, only growing for a month... PF looses again 
Besides, who only wants a little bit? 
Seriously though, I'm not trying to be an ass, there are valid arguments in favour of PF. It's just that "do PF first" seems to be the default response. What I'm saying is, if you're a newb, consider grains. Someone posted earlier asking why their shrooms were only 3" and small. They were doing PF tek. I'd bet they would like a big pile of 6 inchers.
Rahz
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rahz
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mikeownow
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#5661239 - 05/22/06 08:29 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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There are much more steps in grains and a newb is concerned with a lot and fear messing up the pf tek- after the pf tek you get the prossess down and are basicaly ready for a next step up. I went from pf tek to grain pooh
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Rahz
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Oatman2000]
#5661248 - 05/22/06 08:32 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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LOL, I remember that pic.
I've got a tyvek covered jar of grain I PCed 6 months ago. Contam free and drying out. My contam rate is 1 jar out of the dozens I've done so far, and that was because I left the foil cover on without loosening it, condensation above the tyvek contamed and wicked through the tyvek.
Did you ever figure out what was up?
Rahz
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rahz
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Hippie3
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Dragonaut]
#5661396 - 05/22/06 09:13 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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pf invitro
it just doesn't get any easier
nor more reliable than that.
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MushroomJoe
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Hippie3]
#5661403 - 05/22/06 09:14 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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WOW nice invitro!!!
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Oatman2000
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: mikeownow]
#5661438 - 05/22/06 09:22 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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Quote:
mikeownow said:
Oatman2000
HOW the hell did you contam so much lol!
some on accident... some on purpose. And Strick lazieness
it happens when you make alot of jars, and wait a long time before taking them out to the ol' shed to clean.... 
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hyphae
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Oatman2000]
#5661512 - 05/22/06 09:42 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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BTW Road's the one who uses PFTek to test strains as well as I. PFTek is simple and painless and gives me tissue cultures quickly. PFTek is forgiving for those who are not myco inclined bro plain and simple.
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HippieChick
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: hyphae]
#5661556 - 05/22/06 09:55 PM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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Throw me in that boat . I test everything on BRF cakes before using it .
Also , I started on BRF cakes to get my feet wet and see everything and try everything out and hone my skills first
Broke up cakes and cased to get the bugs out . It's far different to see things up close and first hand then it is to look at pics on the board .
Besides , I still enjoy watching a cake pin and fruit
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Edited by HippieChick (05/23/06 12:52 AM)
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Oatman2000
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: HippieChick]
#5662230 - 05/23/06 12:24 AM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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i agree with hc. You can pop off a batch of Pf cakes quickly, without soaking for 24 hrs.
the last batch that i made got super wet... that's why they contam'd.
The grains i made with the same LC look fabulous!
(i love my new magnetic stirer)
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My Chocolate Recipe
WBS QUART SPAWN JAR PREPERATION
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monstermitch
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Oatman2000]
#5662304 - 05/23/06 12:49 AM (7 years, 2 days ago) |
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.
Edited by monstermitch (05/23/06 01:09 AM)
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aqualung23
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 Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#10176412 - 04/16/09 09:50 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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Thanks for the post. It's some good food for thought. I am just about ready to harvest my first grow using pf, and I have ended up putting in much more effort and $ than I thought, and now I think I am going to modify my TIT and try some small casings before I take on grain. Your points are all relavant, but don't forget that the reason newbs are directed to pf is probably mainly to do a grow with a high chance of success. Some people might give up if the spent several weeks on a grow that went wrong. I'm going to start doing research.
Cheers!
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Rahz
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: aqualung23]
#10180664 - 04/16/09 10:39 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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PF is fairly straight forward. Reading up on grains, there are a slew of teks, and most of them only cover part of the grow (which is good). There's more reading involved, more decisions on what procedures to use, probably more legwork involved finding some of the supplies, but to me, that's all part of the fun. If done right, the chance of an early contam should be close to zero.
This is a pictorial I did that may give you some ideas: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5073125#5073125 Though I could have been clearer. If you read the thread, you should be able to figure out what I'm doing. The sealant can be used either on the top or bottom side of the tyvek, it matters not either way.
Other tips for sterility, soak the grain for 36-48 hours, don't bother simmering. With no heat, there will be no burst grains. The grain will begin to grow stuff on the second day, but it's all going in the PC anyway. A long soak insures that all contams have germinated and are vulnerable to the heat. PCed at 15 PSI for 1.5 hours, those grains will be contam free. This, along with the injection ports from LC to grain jars, and your chance of a contamination is now super low. I take care to use sterile syringes, flame them, and wipe them down with alcohol just prior to entry in a port. I also wipe the ports down with alcohol, but I make no attempt to clean my work environment.
Good growing Mr. Tull.
Edit: The tubing in the LC jar lid is 3/8" automotive vacuum tubing. Also not shown, I sealed the tubing to the lid on both sides. Both that and the RTV sealant can be found at any auto parts store. I have read that other silicones will also hold up to PC temps.
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rahz
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Edited by Rahz (04/16/09 10:47 PM)
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wasting_space
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I like to use the half pint cake method when I am producing specifically for spore prints.... If you are an old-school cultivator you can still appreciate the nostalgic value of doing the PF method and remembering the small add that would be published in hightimes back in 1997 and the 10 buck syringes that were sold... To this day I have never found a spore supplier that even compared to that of Professor Fanaticus... Oh the good old days of yore......Does anyone remember the strains he carried... I am a little foggy but I believe they were only amazonian(pf clasic) B+ and Treasure Coast... Granted the method of cultivation is extremely outdated but that specific method introduced millions of people to the world of mycology...
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Bugzy
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#10180821 - 04/16/09 10:59 PM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I see both sides, but its still like arguing whats the best beer.
Purely a subjective topic. If you want pf, go pf, if you want bulk, go bulk. All depends on what your goal is, preference, and ability
Its your own fault if you expect the opposite outcome of your method(s), just as it is your own fault for not reading in the first place.
And for the ones who still ride the short bus home..... "learn before you guess" and dont grow PF expecting Bulk results and vice versa.
I think noobes go through this site and see pf tek, then bulk tek and start thinking "PF Bulk!"- trying too get mass yields with the simplest tek and least work, mixing and matching teks/methods.
Yes I am a noob, but Im not retarded. I read the lines in between the lines before anything.
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OutThisLife
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Bugzy]
#10181818 - 04/17/09 01:40 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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I'm just starting and it's pretty hard to find an in-depth guide for other teks. I know what to do w/ BRF on the back of my hand now I've read so much and there's so much information on it. But grains, casings, wtf it rapes my mind :P
Reading, reading and reading. I'm starting in a few days and I need to get this right >< I don't really want to do cakes.
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budzeno
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I would like to say, while on the subject of what not to do, that TiT's for incubating are more trouble then there worth. When i was first starting out in this hobby I made one. The water got contam,it was hard to control the heat, and on top of that they look suspicious as hell. Plus all I could think is fire hazard when I had one.
I just leave my stuff on the shelf now, no worries and it seems like they colonize quicker to me.
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FractalXplora
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: budzeno]
#10182613 - 04/17/09 04:28 AM (4 years, 1 month ago) |
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how is moisture content with grain hard? bullshit, boil em, let stream rise and stir,wait half hour if you cant't get that right you should seriously consider giving up. lol. Its not rocket science, if it feels wet, its TOO wet.
I agree with the OP, why sweat over PF tek,. slow, pointless and harder than grain!!!!!
Ive done both before, and have to say, theres more to fuk up using pf tek.
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explosiveoxygen
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#10704302 - 07/19/09 04:30 PM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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After incubation in jars, can't you just break up a cake or two and have it grow into a bulk substrate after casing?
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Rahz
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Yes you can. A healthy cake can be used to seed a bulk substrate. If you have a cheese grater, that might help break things up. I would use the side with the biggest holes.
It is something to play with.
But grain is easier IMO, with the small investment of a 12 quart, or larger, pressure cooker. A nod to FractalXplora, but if you're a grain newb, and your cooking, there are some lessons to be learned that can only be learned with experience. Since heated water has the potential to hydrate grains past what they would normally experience in nature, it is possible to fuck up until you get the cook times right. If at first you don't succeed, try again. Eventually you will get it.
Or, there is another way. There is a way to prepare grains, that even a newb can succeed at on the first attempt. Granted, your lid setup, culture, and inoculation technique, must be "good", but this method is guaranteed to produce well hydrated grain with no possibility of under, or over hydration.
Step 1: deposit grain into container. (1/2 jars worth for each jar)
Step 2: Fill container with water until grain is submerged by 2 inches.
Step 3: Wait 36-48 hours.
Step 4: Drain grain for at least 5 minutes.
Step 5: Put grain in quart jars, on the easy side of 2/3s full (if you have a small ammount left over that's ok) and cook for 1.5 hours at 15 PSI.
Agar whispered that into my ear.
The grain may be clean and not show much sign of activity. The grain may be dirty, and will either froth a bit, or begin to grow stuff on top of the water since we're working with 36+ hour soak times. This is not a problem. The PC kills all, especially when the grain is fully hydrated with "long" soak times. If for some reason biological activity during the soak stage is a problem, either place the container somewhere it won't bother you, deal with it like a man, or add a cup of peroxide to the container to keep activity at bay. Personally, I let the grain soak in a bucket, in my kitchen, and strain it in the sink.
None of this has anything to do with the success rate of the 5 step grain tek listed above. Follow the 5 steps and the grain will be properly hydrated. And as has been mentioned elsewhere, if there is biological activity in your bucket, that's just more well cooked buffet items for your mycelium.
Beyond that, my two questions would be: Got inoculation ports? Flame and wipe the needle with alcohol?
If so, your chances of success on the first try are sky high.
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rahz
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RogerRabbit
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#10712163 - 07/21/09 12:03 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Rahz said:
Other tips for sterility, soak the grain for 36-48 hours, don't bother simmering. With no heat, there will be no burst grains. The grain will begin to grow stuff on the second day, but it's all going in the PC anyway. A long soak insures that all contams have germinated and are vulnerable to the heat.
I'd suggest 24 hours MAX for soaking. I've even shortened that lately. Many endospores germinate during the soak and form new endospores within hours, so a long soak time is actually counter-productive. You could easily end up with more endospores than you started with. A four to five hour soak in HOT tap water will ensure the grains have softened up enough that they won't burst when you bring them to a boil, and that should be enough to get some of the endospores at least hydrated, if not germinated and they'll get killed easier in the PC.
RR
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Enjoywho
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There any way you can pm me a good thorough grain tek? Thanks
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Rahz
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I wouldn't suggest my way is the only method, but it works well, and is what I personally would recommend. Results speak for themselves.
I shoot for results and less effort. Dump grain in bucket. Soak grain for 36-48 hours. Strain grain for at least 5 minutes. Cook grain at 15 PSI for 1.5 hours. It doesn't get much easier than that. After learning to do this, the last thing I'm going to do is soak, and then bother with cooking, and straining a boiling pot. Just soak and PC.
I would guess that a clinical trial would prove that endospores would not be a concern if my advice is followed as stated.
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rahz
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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
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TacoHerder
Bluedavenger
Registered: 06/10/09
Posts: 10,099
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#10712287 - 07/21/09 12:29 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I dont even soak for hours. just use this method and its worked everytime. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8508523#Post8508523]
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Rahz
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: TacoHerder]
#10712318 - 07/21/09 12:35 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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That's a good tek if followed properly. More than one way to go about it.
Sounds like more effort though, but to each their own. The point is, follow the 5 steps above and the grain will be properly hydrated, period. If you're in a hurry, and 36-48 hours is too long to wait, other methods are available.
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rahz
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"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
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Krayton
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#10712487 - 07/21/09 01:17 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Why suggest PF tek to newbs? Simple: there's so much information on it, and since so many people do in fact start that way, you can get a lot of good advice when you need it. It's a classic, too, which for some people (myself included) is good enough to warrant at least one attempt. From someone who pulled 850 grams fresh off his first twelve cakes, you can't say that PF doesn't have the potential to give the well-read newb a decent first harvest.
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steadyheady
Ex Nihilo
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Krayton]
#10712692 - 07/21/09 02:08 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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There seems to be not a lot of info on what to do after your WBS is done colonizing. You can case or spawn to bulk, but then what do you do? Theres not much info on that, or maybe I'm just not looking at the right stuff.
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Rahz
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Krayton]
#10712700 - 07/21/09 02:10 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
you can't say that PF doesn't have the potential to give the well-read newb a decent first harvest
No I cannot. But I can say that a well read newb will "take the cake", if they try out grains.
"there's so much information on it"
So? There's so much info on grains. Less info is better, if it's accurate.
PF, and the internet. A match made in heaven. I mean, I wear Fila f-13s. I like retro when it works. But grain deserves attention from the start, that's what I'm saying. There is no "institution". It's the difference of $50, and desire. Cakes are fun. Spoon some up. But a big straw log could be fun to, first try. Or maybe some horse shit in a tub. Fun stuff. Who says PF tek?
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rahz
comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool."
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greg86jgl
young grower
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: Rahz]
#10713030 - 07/21/09 03:56 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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steadyheady search the following....
monotub/dubletub/coir/colonizing mono/...then seach some details found in some of the threads that interest u...
after ur grain is colonized u need to decide to either spawn to something like a coir/coffee/vermic mix...poo mix straw w.e. or just fruit them (dont know why any1 would do so kinda beats the point of doing grain). now u decide to do a terrarium setup aka martha setup(can get very expencive and complicated) or something like a monotub setup(recomended not alot of care needed its cheep and produces more then enough for you and 8 buddys time and time agian) this is known as the set it and forget it method. now that u know what ur spawning to u need to choose a pasturizing method(few ways to do this some recomended for different subs). after u spawn to ur bulk sub. and ur sub is now colonized you either lay a casing layer down or go naked(no casing) recomend no casing for monotubs its realy just not needed for a newbe bulk grower. after this you watch learn pick eat do it all again. hope this helps. mostly u have to read about all the different ways and see what works best for you...like some1 said already
p.s ive been doing monotubs for the past 6 months and getting dam good at it(got 7oz dry after 3 flushes on a 30gal tub) so if u decide to go that rought and need advice help question just pm
forgot to awnser to the original question. bag pf tek unless testing strains and such. i jumpd right in to doing 30gal monotubs with 6qrts rye grain spawned to coir coffe vermic every time...love it
Edited by greg86jgl (07/21/09 04:03 AM)
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heathendome
Stranger
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Re: Who says PF tek? (rant) [Re: greg86jgl]
#10825966 - 08/09/09 03:41 AM (3 years, 9 months ago) |
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I've been inoculated yesterday my first four jars with rye,i'm a newbie and I never grow mushies before..
so it's time to write and first post here,this forum kick ass and it's really psyhodelic trasure chest!
I can say you that the optimal quantity of water in grain in beggining is little tricky,my first PC expirience didn't end well...rye was overcooked,dark,smelly..so I take second chance:
1.soak rye for about 24hours
2.drain it completly
3.clear grains from water with towel
4.after all this rye should not be wet or sticky if you take it in hand
5.fill the jars (hole on the top for inoculation)
6 cover the top with aluminium foil and put it in PC
7.wait while the valve is start to rotating(on PC),then reduce the fire an cook 1hour
On second chance My sterilised rye has a little bit "gummy" feel under the fingers,I was put in pressure cooker small sample jar so I can test the rye...anyway, jars was cooling down another 24hours after cooking,there is no sign of water nor condensation in each of this jar
before inoculation???it is not dry,I repeat,little gummy on touch..so I don't know if this is optimal quantity of water for mycelium to rise. . After the completion I store jars on 30 celzius degrrees to start colonize....
so Is this ok if anyone knows?
because I am really become impatient ,not for eating mushrooms because it is a ritual for me,i just want to
make this first step to feel joy when i first see self growed mycelium Really appreciated any help or advice you might give me..cheers!!!
and sorry for bad english!!
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Edited by heathendome (08/09/09 09:18 AM)
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potatonet
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^^^
lol
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