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 Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
 
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,869
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill 
Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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 Bias bans 
#4989782 - 11/28/05 04:07 PM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Just one question for the Admins.
If you are going to occasionally ban people with Bias, why don't you PERMABAN them?
If you are going to ban people who break NO rules, why not PERMABAN them? Bias bans should be ALL or NOTHING.
In the past, banning with BIAS, then allowing the person back, to post again, has caused a LOT of drama. Although, it is popular to blame the person who breaks no rules... for the drama.
There's another option, of course; you could stop the BIAS bans all together. This too, would curb AVOIDABLE drama.;)
Thanks
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
Edited by Cervantes (12/01/05 03:43 PM)
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 HeavyToilet
The Heaviest OfThem All
Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 9,405
Loc: British Columbia
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Well what about Hanky?
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,869
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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Hanky's permaban is not something I am proud of, but at least we don't have Hanky posting about it... 'cause he is permabanned. Hanky has a VISIBLE track record of breaking rules. His case is different.
I'm talking about the people The Staff bans, for breaking NO rules.
Other people have been banned for shorter terms, for NO reason. Once their UNJUST ban is lifted, they, predictably, come back and START TO COMPLAIN. Then The Staff punnishes them for COMPLAINING.
I'm suggesting the Staff either STOPS banning people who break NO RULES, or at least, that The Staff permabans ALL those they treat with bias.
Either option is better than MISTREATING rule following Shroomerites... then watching them complain, once they return.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
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OneMoreRobot3021
punky jewster
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 60,654
Loc: new york city
Last seen: 5 hours, 59 minutes
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Well who in the what now then?
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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,869
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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Nothing new Robot. Same old complaint.
I'm just following Admin advice, and waited several weeks, before continuing a previous discussion. So things could cool down a bit, first.
That is also, why I am not naming any names. I'd like to look at this issue w/o a specific name involved.
Just some Shroomerite, who keeps getting banned for BREAKING NO RULES.
Imagine such a Shroomerite...
If you WERE going to ban him/her wouldn't it be best to PERMABAN him/her?
I mean, if you are gonna' ban someone who BROKE NO RULE, shouldn't you keep them from EVER complaining AGAIN? Wouldn't allowing them back, just cause MORE drama?
I suspect, if The Staff handled ALL BIAS BANS, with a permaban, there would be FEWER TOTAL BIAS BANS. And people, who DIDN'T deserve to be banned unjustly, would be MORE SAFE than they currently are. Because the Staff is LESS WILLING to PERMABAN SOMEONE who BREAKS NO RULES, than to simply ban them for 24 hours or a week. Although, apparently The Administration HAS NO PROBLEM supporting EVERY SINGLE Mod, who ban people who break NO RULES.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
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OneMoreRobot3021
punky jewster
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 60,654
Loc: new york city
Last seen: 5 hours, 59 minutes
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Okay, I was just unsure whether something quite recent had spurned this post or if it was just an old issue being reraised.
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Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,869
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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I figured.
Nothing new.
Just better timing. 
And, a new angle.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
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HeavyToilet
The Heaviest OfThem All
Registered: 08/06/03
Posts: 9,405
Loc: British Columbia
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Oh, you're talking someone being banned even though they didn't break any rules?
Well maybe it happens like this:
Someone does something a mod or admin doesn't like, so the mod or admin bans them. Then the admin council discusses it and realizes it was wrong. The person is unbanned and starts making tons of threads about how the admins were wrong, blah blah blah. The admins get tired of it being rubbed in their faces so they ban the person again.
Or I could be wrong.
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 10,661
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
Last seen: 23 minutes, 42 seconds
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when do you think they will ban you?
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Burke Dennings
decapitron
Registered: 11/29/04
Posts: 46,976
Loc: Moscow Disco
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Cervantes is now an enemy of the State, and must be neutralized.
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Stonerguy
I smoke penis
Registered: 05/29/04
Posts: 5,538
Loc: Lost
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Quote:
e-chode said:
Cervantes is now an enemy of the State, and must be neutralized.
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yawn...
SG
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,869
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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Quote:
HeavyToilet said:
Oh, you're talking someone being banned even though they didn't break any rules?
Well maybe it happens like this:
Someone does something a mod or admin doesn't like, so the mod or admin bans them. Then the admin council discusses it and realizes it was wrong. The person is unbanned and starts making tons of threads about how the admins were wrong, blah blah blah. The admins get tired of it being rubbed in their faces so they ban the person again.
Or I could be wrong.
That is very close to what keeps happening.
I'm asking the Admins to come up with a better policy.
If someone gets banned unjustly, it is EXPECTED of them to make a fuss, once they are allowed to post. However, people have been BANNED for doing just that.
Seems the current policy might provoke a negative pattern... and therefore, provoke further unjust bans.
It doesn't happen often, but it happens often enough to be worth discussing... ESPECIALLY while there IS NOT A CURRENT CRISIS.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
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wrestler_az
PsiLLy BiLLy
Registered: 08/11/02
Posts: 10,661
Loc: day dreams of a mad man
Last seen: 23 minutes, 42 seconds
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so the moral of the story?
....to suck it up and take the ban like a man.
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how's your WOW?
Edited by yageman (04/20/06 4:20 PM)
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Anno
Experimenter
Registered: 06/18/99
Posts: 24,096
Loc: my room
Last seen: 5 days, 6 hours
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>if someone gets banned unjustly, it is EXPECTED of them to make a fuss, once they
> are allowed to post.
No, you are wrong about that.
It is expected of them to address the ban IMMEDIATELY after the ban, using the www.shroomery.org/support , if they feel the ban is unjust.
As this forum's description says:
"This is not a forum to contest disciplinary action. Please use our Support Ticket System for such matters"
If the ban was unjust, then the ban is lifted.
If it wasn't unjust, then it stays, and they have nothing to complain about, and particularly NOT in this forum.
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,869
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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Re: Bias bans [Re: Anno]
#4993072 - 11/29/05 05:23 AM (7 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
If the ban was unjust, then the ban is lifted.
A couple months ago, that is how I thought The Shroomery worked TOO, Anno.
But, aparently, it does not.
With THAT in mind, I have made a couple suggestions:
1. Always PERMABAN when INTENTIONALLY banning with BIAS.
or
2. Follow Ythan's words, and END SHROOMERY BIAS.
Of course, it would be best, if this place still worked like you just said... but Anno, I have been told time, and time again, that it NOW doesn't. And, it seems, I'm a bad guy for wishing for this website to work like it did in the past. LOGICALLY and BY THE BOOK. Aparently, I've betrayed The Staff's trust by saying so.
Heh, I'd still be on The Staff... instead of Staff enemy #1... if things just worked the way they used to.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
Edited by Cervantes (11/29/05 05:56 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,883
Loc: underbelly
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I don't know of anyone personally who broke no rules. I don't think that person exists.
The problem is that rules are unfairly applied. Period.
The person you are referring to (I think) broke the rules lots of times IMO. He was rarely called on it and received bans instead on threads where he did nothing wrong.
I think the Mods in the forums I frequent for the most part are not competent to do their jobs and that includes the administration who backs them and most likely encourages their foolishness.
I usually would not be so direct about this but I have rarely had an honest encounter with the mods and so I feel that they do not have the intent to be honest. So if they don't like it they can lump it. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,869
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I don't know of anyone personally who broke no rules. I don't think that person exists.
The problem is that rules are unfairly applied. Period.
The person you are referring to (I think) broke the rules lots of times IMO. He was rarely called on it and received bans instead on threads where he did nothing wrong.
I think the Mods in the forums I frequent for the most part are not competent to do their jobs and that includes the administration who backs them and most likely encourages their foolishness.
I usually would not be so direct about this but I have rarely had an honest encounter with the mods and so I feel that they do not have the intent to be honest. So if they don't like it they can lump it.
Yeah, if it had only been ONE person who was treated with bias, I would agree with you COMPLETELY. But SEVERAL, including yourself, were involved, and treated unfairly... over the course of this debacle. Treated unfairly, for sharing your opinion.
But yes, it all started with one person who (arguably) broke ONE rule, and served his time, before being banned FOUR MORE TIMES, for breaking NO MORE RULES. ALTHOUGH, the alleged rule-breaking was DELETED by the mod who banned him. So there is NO EVIDENCE of the crime (an odd choice). Also, the guy in question WAS NOT WARNED, which is what he truly deserved (according to one admin, and Shroomery ban protocol).
Instead, they jumped right to an EXTENDED BAN. Even if he DID break the rule he was accused of breaking, he was punished unfairly... AND he was punished MULTIPLE TIMES after his bogus ban.
Despite multiple attempts to explain this situation, I have been lumped among the, "Bad" guys. Simply because I have attempted to explain it. The Mods in the forum in question, have not replied to my questions... not even in THE THREAD THEY STARTED, AND STICKIED! No reply for WEEKS.
Since there's been a lull in the drama, I'd love to discuss the issues NOW, while emotions aren't flaring. I'd LOVE the Administration to FINALLY smooth things over for me, and my friends.... who have been treated in a very Un-Shroomery-like manor.
I owe geo another PM... but I wanted to have this discussion first. To see if tempers have calmed yet, on BOTH sides.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
Edited by Cervantes (11/29/05 04:49 PM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,883
Loc: underbelly
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I appreciate your continued attempts to find common ground and work out a solution. Having dealt with this kind of situation a few times in my life I believe I know the final outcome, and so am disinclined to soften my statements. That way I get to tell my truth and not have it lost in fruitless negotiations. It takes a willingness to fair play on both sides for benefit in these sorts of things.
I look at it this way. As above so below. What we see in management from the top of the govt all the way down to the family structure is unhealthy. To expect your efforts to effect a change in such a pervasive structure doesn't seem likely, although small temporary benefit can happen from time to time. The best place to effect change is in oneself and leave others to their Karma. But if you enjoy the fray, well that's different.  
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,869
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 1 hour, 12 minutes
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I do enjoy the fray, that is why it says Devil's Advocate under my username. However, I am partial to POSITIVE RESULTS. 
I only jump in, if I feel something GOOD will come out of it.
BTW, overall I think the split has been a positive experience. From my conversations with you, I believe you feel the same way, Ice.
So, we aren't saying this stuff to destroy a new forum. Rather to address an issue which has simply effected us in a negative way. An issue which is easy to solve... if The Administration would admit their mistakes, and retract the punishment of the innocent.
I hope the Staff does not misinterpret our words. It is very hard to be careful of other people's feelings, while you have VALID criticism. Criticism, by definition can be hurtful. However, this IS the feedback forum.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
Edited by Cervantes (11/30/05 12:59 AM)
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,883
Loc: underbelly
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Quote:
The Administration would admit their mistakes, and retract the punishment of the innocent.
Notice the lack of mod and admins posting on your thread my friend.
This seems easy to fix because of the kind of person you are. You need to step into their shoes to see how unlikely that would be.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
Edited by Icelander (11/30/05 10:40 AM)
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