|
 moog
Stranger
Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
|
 what if i don't want to support "our" troops? 
#4343633 - 06/27/05 05:13 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Every day that I'm out on the road it seems the cars with "Support our troops!" magnets double in number.
Well, why do I have to support "our" troops? Why do I want to support people who are brainwashed into being killing machines, or support the people who were killing machines without needing the brainwashing? And if I'm supporting troops shouldn't I support both sides of the fight, since how am I to know which side is "right"?
|
 Schwip
Never sleeps.
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 5 months, 29 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4343695 - 06/27/05 05:26 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
While it can said that 'this is what they signed for' or 'hey, its their fault for joining' I still support our troops.....they are everyday people like you and me, thrown into very very shitty situations....
Support the troops, cause the government hardly cares for their pawns! 
--------------------
--------------------------------
" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "
..............
"MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
|
Silversoul
Holon
Registered: 01/01/05
Posts: 22,562
Loc: Mostly harmless
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4343731 - 06/27/05 05:33 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I support those troops closest to me, namely my friends on the ground in Iraq who are getting shot at every day. I don't support the policies that led them into this hostile situation, nor do most of them. I simply pray for a safe return for them, as I do for anyone stuck in that hellhole. I find it insulting that you can dismiss those whose values or economic circumstances led them to fight as "brainwashed." They are simply doing what's right by them. If they should abuse their positions by knowingly slaughtering innocent civilians, then fuck 'em, but I make no such presumption about a person simply because they're serving in the military over there. I extend my prayers to our enemies as well. I hope that they, too, get through this as safely as possible, and that there are few orphans made at our hands. It's a tough situation for all sides involved, and I am not one to condemn one entirely while praising the other unequivocably.
--------------------
|
Vex
Stranger
Registered: 05/04/05
Posts: 1,284
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4343838 - 06/27/05 05:54 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
if you pay taxes you are supporting the troops. you can send them care packages too if you want. But pretending you believe in the war is fucking retarded. It's not supporting the troops, it's just the inability to think yourself, i think.
|
niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc: 
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4343897 - 06/27/05 06:05 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
"Supporting the troupes" isn't the same as "Supporting the war"
The people that are over there now (for the most part) didn't sign up to go to war. They did it for a job and for a shot at an education. They are just average Joe's who got caught up in a political situation they had no control over.
It's not the soldiers fault that he is in a combat situation.
|
moog
Stranger
Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Vex]
#4343911 - 06/27/05 06:08 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
well I was referring to moral support, rather than financial support.
|
moog
Stranger
Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: niteowl]
#4343948 - 06/27/05 06:18 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I hear this all the time... 'It's not their fault they're caught in a war. They don't want to be there.' If they didn't want to be there, why would they take the chance of being sent off to war by joining the armed forces to begin with? It IS the soldier's fault he's in a combat situation. As far as I know these guys (and gals) signed up by their own choice. Yeah, I know, I know, they "had to" for a shot at a job/education/whatever.
I feel for the guys who regret being there in the middle east, but I still don't support what they're doing, even if they disagree with it themselves. These people are supporting the war, whether they like it or not, by being a part of it.
|
faslimy
Dead Man
Registered: 04/04/04
Posts: 3,436
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4343960 - 06/27/05 06:20 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
while i sympathize that many people were just too ignorant to understand what they were doing when they joined the army, supporting them will just perpetuate the cycle
|
Schwip
Never sleeps.
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 5 months, 29 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4343985 - 06/27/05 06:25 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
I feel for the guys who regret being there in the middle east,
From what i hear,....so do the majority of the troops stuck over there..... but its not something any soldier can just walk away from....is going to jail to prove a point better than being stuck in that shit-storm? i dunno, im not over there......
maybe we should sell bumper stickers that say "I support our troops by feeling sory for them"
--------------------
--------------------------------
" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "
..............
"MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
|
BCBudJohn
Foolhardy
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 150
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Schwip]
#4344429 - 06/27/05 08:44 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I think michael moore said it best (something like this):
"These young men and women gave themselves and their lives to your country, with the knowledge that we would not put them into harms way unless absolutely necessary."
Joining the army takes alot of courage and a great amount of genorosity and selflessness.
I think the best way to support the troops is to actively try to bring them home from an illegal war that this administration has started on its own agenda, not that of the international community.
--------------------
Peace
John
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: BCBudJohn]
#4344958 - 06/27/05 11:11 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Nothing will really happen if you don't support the troops.
There are plenty of americans that support the need for a standing army.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
downforpot
Stranger
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4345297 - 06/28/05 01:12 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
If you talk shit and spit on them then you become like those dirty vile scum hippies of the 60's that called all the troops "baby killers"
--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/4th25
"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"
|
Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4345310 - 06/28/05 01:19 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
As long as you get in the troops' way, that's fine by me. Your freedom of speech allows you to say you don't support the troops.
I don't put the troops up on some high pedestal, but I realize they are essential for the continued existence of this country. Being a soldier is a job like any other (except you're more likely to get killed  ), and I don't say that I support our accountants or our lawyers because it makes no difference. All occupations are necessary to the survival of this country, whether they put people in danger or not.
--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
|
downforpot
Stranger
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Ravus]
#4345509 - 06/28/05 02:25 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
yep, there have been soldiers, warriors, armies long before people invaded fire, shit, they weren't even considered soldiers back then, it wasn't wierd to kill in order to survive, secure resources, mates, etc.
--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/4th25
"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: downforpot]
#4346018 - 06/28/05 06:19 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
What do you call someone who kills a baby, like the thousands in Iraq - a humanitarian ?
Are dead babies "free"?
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
cb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4346110 - 06/28/05 08:15 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Then this is the perfect site for you.
--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Swami]
#4346130 - 06/28/05 08:41 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
What do you call someone who kills a baby, like the thousands in Iraq - a humanitarian ?
I call him a patriot.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
MolokoMilkPlus
Theorist
Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 185
Last seen: 7 years, 10 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4346237 - 06/28/05 10:34 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The vast majority of them joined the army for what has already been mentioned, a shot at better education. Most people before 9-11 who joined the army likely did so only expecting to do the training for a few years, and then leave with its benefits. Many simply thought of war as something that doesn't occur anymore. Then 9-11 came along and Bush used it as an excuse to invade Iraq to secure its oilfields and as a gift to Israel.
--------------------
Got Milk?
|
DieCommie
El Guapo
Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 25,374
Loc: Street of Dreams
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: MolokoMilkPlus]
#4346261 - 06/28/05 10:56 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
MolokoMilkPlus said:Many simply thought of war as something that doesn't occur anymore.
 Nobody I know in the service before or after 911 thought that.
|
Seuss
Error: divide byzero
Registered: 04/27/01
Posts: 23,394
Loc: Caribbean
Last seen: 3 months, 9 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4346296 - 06/28/05 11:22 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
> Why do I want to support people who are brainwashed into being killing machines
So that you can sit in the comfort of your own home and bitch about them without worrying about spending the rest of your life doing hard labor in a prison camp somewhere stating how you feel.
I repsect the men and woman in the military more than any other occupation. They are willing to die to protect my right to bitch about life (or more to the point, they are willing to die to protect the constitution of this country).
> Nothing will really happen if you don't support the troops.
It depends upon what you mean by "nothing". If you mean it wont change the war in Iraq, you are certainly correct. If you mean it doesn't matter, then you are very wrong. Look at Vietnam and the lack of support that our soldiers got then... the lack of support did nothing to end the war, but it certainly hurt the young men and woman that were forced to fight.
> And if I'm supporting troops shouldn't I support both sides of the fight, since how am I to know which side is "right"?
Ah, I understand... you are confusing the "rightousness" of the fight/war with that of the soldiers... these are two very different things. The soldiers signed up to protect the country, not to play the part of Bushes big branch. Remember, some of these people have been in the military since the days of Jimmy Carter... or longer... to blame them for the current administrations screw-ups is simply wrong. Don't kill the messanger...
--------------------
Just another spore in the wind.
|
soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,349
Loc: The Richest County
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Seuss]
#4346513 - 06/28/05 01:19 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Vietnam was wrong and stupid just like Iraq, that's why neither has/had strong support. There's not a single current senator or rep with a kid in the armed forces, go figure. A lot of veterans of the Vietnam war (my father included) felt it was wrong for us to go in there in the first place.
--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Seuss]
#4346561 - 06/28/05 01:34 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Ah, I understand... you are confusing the "rightousness" of the fight/war with that of the soldiers... these are two very different things.
So that you can sit in the comfort of your own home and bitch about them without worrying...
Explain how the patriotic German soldiers of WWII made Germany safer by fighting an unrighteous war. Ever see pictures of the bombed-out Berlin?
Were the citizens of Hiroshima made safer by the patriotic Japanese soldiers fighting an unrighteous war?
I don't feel any safer pissing off half the Muslim world or knowing that 10,000 Iraqi citizens are dead.
And I am certainly v-e-r-y afraid of watching liberty after liberty fall in the name of the War on Terror.
And, of course, let's completely overlook the fact that the 9/11 attack was in retaliation for past military and political actions.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
WhiteRabbitt
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 5 years, 24 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Swami]
#4346637 - 06/28/05 02:07 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
you make it sound as though 9 11 was justified
--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.
|
SoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst
Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4346645 - 06/28/05 02:09 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Then don't support them. Who cares?
--------------------
Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man
|
Swami
Eggshell Walker
Registered: 01/19/00
Posts: 15,413
Loc: In the hen house
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
#4346768 - 06/28/05 02:54 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
you make it sound as though 9 11 was justified
Every man that takes a life justifies it in their own mind. Comprende?
You make it sound as if extreme actions take place with no motivation.
--------------------
The proof is in the pudding.
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Swami]
#4346799 - 06/28/05 03:01 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Explain how the patriotic German soldiers of WWII made Germany safer by fighting an unrighteous war. Ever see pictures of the bombed-out Berlin?
German soldiers were merely fighting another war in the history of time. They were doing what their leaders decided was the best interest of their country. Whether it was "unrighteous" or not, is a moot point. The military is used to kill, defend, and conquer. Not serve some greater philosophical truth.
Were the citizens of Hiroshima made safer by the patriotic Japanese soldiers fighting an unrighteous war?
If they won, possibly. There are risks in war, and also benefits.
And, of course, let's completely overlook the fact that the 9/11 attack was in retaliation for past military and political actions.
So? They attacked, now they deserve to die. I doesn't matter what we did in the past. We have the right to defend ourselves no matter what.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
BCBudJohn
Foolhardy
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 150
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4346832 - 06/28/05 03:17 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
9/11 was an attack on america's financial (WORLD TRADE... sound it out... i wonder what they do in that big building) and military headquarters. Americas foreign policy speaks for itself, and so did the people that the americans foreign policy affected.
If anything blame karma.
--------------------
Peace
John
|
SoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst
Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4346850 - 06/28/05 03:26 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Looner, you've been here a while, how can you not see this. If someone attacks America for our past military actions, it's OK. Using force against America for our past use of force is allright, especially if a lot of Americans die. However, for us to even think that we'd be held to the same standards, that is that we could use force to retaliate against the people that used force against us, is preposterous. America is the biggest evil that the world has ever seen.
--------------------
Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: BCBudJohn]
#4346872 - 06/28/05 03:31 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
bud said:
"If anything blame karma. "
so the dead civilians in new york (9/11) had bad karma? whatever
--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"
We have "reckless fiscal policies"
America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.
Americans deserve better
Barack Obama
|
WhiteRabbitt
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 5 years, 24 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: SoopaX]
#4346892 - 06/28/05 03:37 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
ohh! you forgot to mention how the US is taking over the world as an evil empire and that the war machine is only run by capitalist fat cats so they make money and george bush is destroying our freedoms because he gets off on things like that and everyone except radical leftists are brainwashed sheep!
--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: soochi]
#4346901 - 06/28/05 03:39 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Soochi....... There is ONE THING in which VIETNAM is the SAME as IRAQ... and that is in the Left's desire to use all the power, propaganda, media and lies at their disposal to see America DEFEATED in IRAQ as in VIETNAM.
--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"
We have "reckless fiscal policies"
America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.
Americans deserve better
Barack Obama
|
SoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst
Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
#4346915 - 06/28/05 03:44 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
WhiteRabbitt said:
ohh! you forgot to mention how the US is taking over the world as an evil empire and that the war machine is only run by capitalist fat cats so they make money and george bush is destroying our freedoms because he gets off on things like that and everyone except radical leftists are brainwashed sheep!
I did forget that! It's so clear that if you don't understand it, you are clearly stupid. Some things just can go unsaid.
--------------------
Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man
|
Sycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: lonestar2004]
#4346944 - 06/28/05 03:50 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I too get tired of seeing those ribbons on cars. But I suppose if it makes some worring parent feel better about there child in harms way then it is a good thing. I, however will never put one on my vehicle. For supporting the troops from my point of view is supporting the war mongers who put them there. The people who really care for our boys and girls in uniform are the ones trying to bring them home. (which I don't fit in that category either since I am not "trying" to bring them home, only wishing)
--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.
Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.
You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
|
WhiteRabbitt
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 5 years, 24 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: SoopaX]
#4346945 - 06/28/05 03:50 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
well obviously if you dont see these things then you are brainwashed and cannot think for yourself.
--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.
|
lonestar2004
Live to party,work to affordit.
Registered: 10/03/04
Posts: 8,978
Loc: South Texas
Last seen: 2 years, 1 month
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: WhiteRabbitt]
#4347006 - 06/28/05 04:01 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
SoopaX and WhiteRabbit you all are too funny.
--------------------
America's debt problem is a "sign of leadership failure"
We have "reckless fiscal policies"
America has a debt problem and a failure of leadership.
Americans deserve better
Barack Obama
|
soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,349
Loc: The Richest County
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: lonestar2004]
#4347193 - 06/28/05 05:00 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
think what you want, I find it disturbing that Halliburton (Dick Cheney is president of that company) is the one supplying aid in not only warfare but the main company in charge of Iraq's (and much of the middle east) oil refineries. They're obviously profiting from warfare and bloodshed. Im neither left or right, but I think the demonization of this whole conflict is somewhat justified. Are we being realistic in saying that we will rid the world of terrorism? or that we will pull out of Iraq completely? I think that the prescence of US forces will be a neccissary component in maintaining some kind of economic and civil balance for as long as the oil flows and tensions are high, just look at the DMZ in Korea.
--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
|
mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,934
Last seen: 11 months, 9 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4347246 - 06/28/05 05:29 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
One way people can be sorted is into two groups. Those that believe Utopia exists and is possible to achieve and those that do not. I tend to think that those that believe in Utopia are similar to those that believe Jesus die on the cross for our sins and was resurrected. I count myself in the second group that don't believe Utopia exists or is possible to attain.
Destroy every person with in ounce of evil and every weapon and in 20 years you'll have a disillusioned youth who figures out he can affix a rock to a stick and rule the world with a few hippie head bashings'. Even without that; as clicks form naturally in any elementary school so they will in a new born utopia. Next will come the struggle for the best farm groud, and soon nations form and so on. I believe this is an absolute truth and given that perspective it become clear that what we are faced with is existence unfolding exactly as is should.
Life is not fair so believe and strive for your Utopia but in the mean time I suggest you keep your soldiers or you will find yourself at the bottom of the dog pile. In a dog eat dog word I for one, would rather be on top.
--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all
|
WhiteRabbitt
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 5 years, 24 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: soochi]
#4347379 - 06/28/05 06:15 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
actually he is the former CEO of Haliburton.
--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.
|
SoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst
Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: soochi]
#4347570 - 06/28/05 07:17 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
dp
--------------------
Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man
Edited by SoopaX (06/28/05 07:21 PM)
|
SoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst
Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: soochi]
#4347586 - 06/28/05 07:20 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
soochi said:
think what you want, I find it disturbing that Halliburton (Dick Cheney is president of that company)
"We've landed on the moon" - Dumb and Dumber
http://www.halliburton.com/about/exec.jsp
I can't seem to find Cheneys name on that page at all. Part of the massive conspiracy? Or just another example of liberal ignorance. Decide for yourself!
Quote:
is the one supplying aid in not only warfare but the main company in charge of Iraq's (and much of the middle east) oil refineries.
And they were given the contract by which administration?
http://www.frontpagemagazine.com/Articles/ReadArticle.asp?ID=15426
Quote:
They're obviously profiting from warfare and bloodshed. Im neither left or right, but I think the demonization of this whole conflict is somewhat justified. Are we being realistic in saying that we will rid
the world of terrorism? or that we will pull out of Iraq completely?
Or that women shouldn't be executed in soccer stadiums for forgetting their burkahs? Oops, we are winning in Afghanistan, sorry to mention that!
--------------------
Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: SoopaX]
#4347808 - 06/28/05 08:34 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
SoopaX said:
Looner, you've been here a while, how can you not see this. If someone attacks America for our past military actions, it's OK. Using force against America for our past use of force is allright, especially if a lot of Americans die. However, for us to even think that we'd be held to the same standards, that is that we could use force to retaliate against the people that used force against us, is preposterous. America is the biggest evil that the world has ever seen.
Their idealogy goes way beyond hating U.S action, it stems from a profound love for inaction. Whether it be working, achieving, or protecting their nation, they choose the side of foolish idealism. This view is a cancer on modern man and will only be removed by another cataclysmic world war. The sad part is they refuse to be prepared for this event, and hence not only threaten themselves but their countrymen. True cowards.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
BCBudJohn
Foolhardy
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 150
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4347949 - 06/28/05 09:27 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't believe trying to sift through all the mis-interpretted facts about profits and conspiracy theories will produce anything except a headache and more dis-agreement and dis-illusionment and complacency.
I believe the problem is greater than ideology, but a question of co-existance. Eye for an eye and we're all blind.
--------------------
Peace
John
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: BCBudJohn]
#4347986 - 06/28/05 09:36 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
BCBudJohn said:
I believe the problem is greater than ideology, but a question of co-existance.
There we go, progress! What about your view is greater than idealogy? I don't understand that.
I agree with you though, co-existence can occur, but only under the rigid structure of the powerful and powerless. When they become equal, strife begins. People and nations will always strive to the top and want it even more the closer they get. It is in the best interest of the powerful to suppress the those who are egging for the top, and in doing so ensure peace for a longer period of time for both sides.
Quote:
BCBudJohn said:Eye for an eye and we're all blind.
Not true, you'd be hard pressed to stab my eyes out after I have yours on a stick.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
 Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4348151 - 06/28/05 10:28 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
looner2 said:
Quote:
BCBudJohn said:Eye for an eye and we're all blind.
Not true, you'd be hard pressed to stab my eyes out after I have yours on a stick.
I don't care who you are, that's funny right there.
--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
|
BCBudJohn
Foolhardy
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 150
Loc: Victoria, BC, Canada
Last seen: 7 years, 5 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: daimyo]
#4348295 - 06/28/05 11:22 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Well both those points are excellent observations.
However, i question your ability to stop the reactionary kung-fu action effectively with a stick in one hand.
I think oftentimes ideologies grasp onto the idea that if its good for me, it must be good for everyone else on earth. A better solution would be to work towards co-existance and respect the fact that we're all working towards the same goal, and will inevitably have different approaches.
I think that a world where we learn to co-exist is more powerful than one which ignores the natural diversity of opinion and suppresses it.
--------------------
Peace
John
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 days, 19 hours
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: BCBudJohn]
#4348324 - 06/28/05 11:29 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
BCBudJohn writes:
Quote:
A better solution would be to work towards co-existance and respect the fact that we're all working towards the same goal, and will inevitably have different approaches.
The "fact" that "we" are all working towards the same goal?
I dunno 'bout you, but I'm sure not working towards the same goal as Robert Mugabe or Kim Jong il or Osama bin Laden.
Phred
--------------------
|
soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,349
Loc: The Richest County
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: SoopaX]
#4348607 - 06/29/05 12:20 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
winning in Afganistan of what front? America will always have enemies in that part of the country, maybe even more so after all this is said and done. We're going to war against an ideology as old as ours, you expect people to just all of sudden forget about that?
Your ignorant if you think Cheney and the whole administration no longer has ties with Halliburton, or Enron, or Fox, or ExxonMobil. who do you think put them in office? apparently not the popular vote.
keep thinking that our system works. I feel sorry for you.
--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
|
soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,349
Loc: The Richest County
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Phred]
#4348619 - 06/29/05 12:22 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
you forgot carl rove.
--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
|
WhiteRabbitt
Stranger
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 3,486
Last seen: 5 years, 24 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: soochi]
#4348825 - 06/29/05 01:11 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You mean Karl Rove? Your well of wisdom knows no bounds.
--------------------
You gotta jump and swing up to hit me in the knees.
|
SoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst
Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: soochi]
#4349166 - 06/29/05 02:55 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
soochi said:
winning in Afganistan of what front? America will always have enemies in that part of the country, maybe even more so after all this is said and done. We're going to war against an ideology as old as ours, you expect people to just all of sudden forget about that?
Actually, I'd say that the primative ideology that runs Afghanistan is a BIT older than America. Just a helpful hint.
Quote:
Your ignorant if you think Cheney and the whole administration no longer has ties with Halliburton, or Enron, or Fox, or ExxonMobil. who do you think put them in office? apparently not the popular vote.
Yea, apparently not. What the fuck are you talking about?
Quote:
keep thinking that our system works. I feel sorry for you.
The feeling is mutual.
--------------------
Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man
|
Divided_Sky
Ten ThousandThings
Registered: 11/02/03
Posts: 3,171
Loc: The Shining Void
Last seen: 4 years, 11 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: SoopaX]
#4349533 - 06/29/05 05:15 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I think if you push it to it's logical conclusions being against our troops means you inderictly support the agenda of somebody else's. In this case Saddam Hussein and people that like to blow up kids and decapitate people.
--------------------
1. "After an hour I wasn't feeling anything so I decided to take another..."
2. "We were feeling pretty good so we decided to smoke a few bowls..."
3. "I had to be real quiet because my parents were asleep upstairs..."
|
Grav
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Loc:
Last seen: 4 months, 25 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4349716 - 06/29/05 08:50 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't like war, and I think the world would be alot better place if there were no armies or reasons to kill each other.
However, today that is only a dream, and I support our troops because they are the foundation of our country - like Seuss said, they are what gives us the ability to sit here in peace and use the internet.
Just try and imagine what would happen if all our armed forces suddenly disbanded.
If you don't want to support the troops than you don't have to. That's your right under a free nation, a right the troops let you have.
|
moog
Stranger
Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 1,296
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Grav]
#4349747 - 06/29/05 09:18 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I might support the troops if they were doing something more honorable, like defending against an invasion, or directly defending freedom. But what they're doing in Iraq is not honorable. It's a disgrace. The armed forces are being used as pawns for profiteering and economic strategy. The ONLY reason they're there at all is for economic interests. You know it and I know it. Anyone who thinks these soldiers are fighting for good will or humanitarianism, to rid the world of terrorism or tyranny, is deluding themselves. Follow the money.
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4349853 - 06/29/05 10:23 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So moog your argument boils down to that of:
Do you support a standing army or not?
Its that simple.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
cb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4349933 - 06/29/05 11:14 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
moog said:
like defending against an invasion, or directly defending freedom. But what they're doing in Iraq is not honorable.
looner2 said:
So moog your argument boils down to that of:
Do you support a standing army or not?
Its that simple.
It's not that simple. I would support a standing army if it was used solely to defend US soil. That's not what's happening in Iraq.
--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."
|
soochi
Chef
Registered: 08/13/02
Posts: 2,349
Loc: The Richest County
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: cb9fl]
#4349945 - 06/29/05 11:20 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I think somewhere along the lines God got mixed up in this whole thing. we're trying to save the heathens remember? 
--------------------
Wee, sleeket, cowran, tim'rous beastie,
O, what panic's in thy breastie!
Thou need na start awa sae hasty,
Wi' bickering brattle!
|
snoopaloop53
No BetterFriend. NoWorse Friend.
Registered: 01/21/05
Posts: 311
Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: soochi]
#4349972 - 06/29/05 11:30 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You should support the troops because we are the young men and women actually making a difference in the world. We are actually out there making things better for people in other parts of the world. We are selflessly going to where the rubber meets the road so that others can live better lives. What have you done?
IT IS THE SOLDIER
It is the soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves under the flag,
Whose coffin is draped in the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.
?Copyright 1970-2005 by Charles M. Province
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: cb9fl]
#4350003 - 06/29/05 11:43 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
cb9fl said:
moog said:
like defending against an invasion, or directly defending freedom. But what they're doing in Iraq is not honorable.
looner2 said:
So moog your argument boils down to that of:
Do you support a standing army or not?
Its that simple.
It's not that simple. I would support a standing army if it was used solely to defend US soil. That's not what's happening in Iraq.
That is just not a viable assertion when it comes to military strategy. We've never refused to fight unless the enemy was on our soil and we will never in the future. It would be foolish 50 years ago, and with the advent of new military technology now it is downright ridiculous.
If you can't accept this, then you do infact disagree with a standing army, which is a rough pill to swallow when it comes to the realistic defense of our nation.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
cb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4350009 - 06/29/05 11:47 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Well considering the fact that US soil includes U.S. Embassies and Consulates I don't see how that isn't a viable solution.
--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: cb9fl]
#4350028 - 06/29/05 11:54 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Explain why we must wait till the enemy steps on our soil to justify a military action.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
cb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4350042 - 06/29/05 11:59 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I would support a standing army if it was used solely to defend US soil.
That doesn't mean US soldiers need to stay on US soil and fight. It simply means that only when US soil is attacked or directly threatened should it be defended with military action.
--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."
|
Gog
hapless andhappy
Registered: 04/25/03
Posts: 373
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4350109 - 06/29/05 12:25 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yes, a soldier has at times killed people so that his society (the people whe works for) to gain these things. So? Soldiers can be poets, and such and such
|
Sycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Gog]
#4350354 - 06/29/05 01:41 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
As long as humans believe you can gain something from killing someone then we are doomed to fail as a species. To gain something you must show respect, caring and sincerity.
There is nothing to be gained in the long run from violence except more violence. And america's history proves that.
--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.
Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.
You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 days, 19 hours
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: cb9fl]
#4350390 - 06/29/05 01:51 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
cb9fl writes:
Quote:
I would support a standing army if it was used solely to defend US soil. That's not what's happening in Iraq.
then adds:
Quote:
Well considering the fact that US soil includes U.S. Embassies and Consulates I don't see how that isn't a viable solution.
Why don't we take at look at what was happening in Iraq back when Hussein was still running the show:
From http://www.nationalreview.com/mccarthy/mccarthy200506290912.asp --
It?s All About 9/11
The president links Iraq and al Qaeda ? and the usual suspects moan.
President George W. Bush forcefully explained last night ? some of us would say finally forcefully explained last night after too long a lull ? why our military operations in Iraq are crucial to success in the war on terror.
It was good to hear the commander-in-chief remind people that this is still the war against terror. Specifically, against Islamo-fascists who slaughtered 3000 Americans on September 11, 2001. Who spent the eight years before those atrocities murdering and promising to murder Americans ? as their leader put it in 1998, all Americans, including civilians, anywhere in the world where they could be found.
It is not the war for democratization. It is not the war for stability. Democratization and stability are not unimportant. They are among a host of developments that could help defeat the enemy.
But they are not the primary goal of this war, which is to destroy the network of Islamic militants who declared war against the United States when they bombed the World Trade Center on February 26, 1993, and finally jarred us into an appropriate response when they demolished that complex, struck the Pentagon, and killed 3000 of us on September 11, 2001.
That is why we are in Iraq.
On September 12, 2001, no one in America cared about whether there would be enough Sunni participation in a fledgling Iraqi democracy if Saddam were ever toppled. No one in lower Manhattan cared whether the electricity would work in Baghdad, or whether Muqtada al-Sadr?s Shiite militia could be coaxed into a political process. They cared about smashing terrorists and the states that supported them for the purpose of promoting American national security.
Saddam Hussein?s regime was a crucial part of that response because it was a safety net for al Qaeda. A place where terror attacks against the United States and the West were planned. A place where Saddam?s intelligence service aided and abetted al Qaeda terrorists planning operations. A place where terrorists could hide safely between attacks. A place where terrorists could lick their wounds. A place where committed terrorists could receive vital training in weapons construction and paramilitary tactics. In short, a platform of precisely the type without which an international terror network cannot succeed.
The president should know he hit the sweet spot during his Fort Bragg speech because all the right people are angry. The New York Times, with predictable disingenuousness, is railing this morning that the 9/11 references in the speech are out of bounds because Iraq had ?nothing whatsoever to do with the terrorist attacks.? Senate Minority Leader Harry Reid and the tedious David Gergen, among others, are in Gergen?s words ?offended? about use of the 9/11 ?trump card.?
If the president is guilty of anything, it's not that he's dwelling on 9/11 enough. It's that the administration has not done a good enough job of probing and underscoring the nexus between the Saddam regime and al Qaeda. It is absolutely appropriate, it is vital, for him to stress that connection. This is still the war on terror, and Iraq, where the terrorists are still arrayed against us, remains a big part of that equation.
And not just because every jihadist with an AK-47 and a prayer rug has made his way there since we invaded. No, it?s because Saddam made Iraq their cozy place to land long before that. They are fighting effectively there because they?ve been invited to dig in for years.
The president needs to be talking about Saddam and terror because that?s what will get their attention in Damascus and Teheran. It?s not about the great experiment in democratization ? as helpful as it would be to establish a healthy political culture in that part of the world. It?s about making our enemies know we are coming for them if they abet and harbor and promote and plan with the people who are trying to kill us.
On that score, nobody should worry about anything the Times or David Gergen or Senator Reid has to say about all this until they have some straight answers on questions like these. What does the ?nothing whatsoever? crowd have to say about:
-- Ahmed Hikmat Shakir ? the Iraqi Intelligence operative who facilitated a 9/11 hijacker into Malaysia and was in attendance at the Kuala Lampur meeting with two of the hijackers, and other conspirators, at what is roundly acknowledged to be the initial 9/11 planning session in January 2000? Who was arrested after the 9/11 attacks in possession of contact information for several known terrorists? Who managed to make his way out of Jordanian custody over our objections after the 9/11 attacks because of special pleading by Saddam?s regime?
-- Saddam's intelligence agency's efforts to recruit jihadists to bomb Radio Free Europe in Prague in the late 1990's?
-- Mohammed Atta's unexplained visits to Prague in 2000, and his alleged visit there in April 2001 which ? notwithstanding the 9/11 Commission's dismissal of it (based on interviewing exactly zero relevant witnesses) ? the Czechs have not retracted?
-- The Clinton Justice Department's allegation in a 1998 indictment (two months before the embassy bombings) against bin Laden, to wit: In addition, al Qaeda reached an understanding with the government of Iraq that al Qaeda would not work against that government and that on particular projects, specifically including weapons development, al Qaeda would work cooperatively with the Government of Iraq.
-- Seized Iraq Intelligence Service records indicating that Saddam's henchmen regarded bin Laden as an asset as early as 1992?
-- Saddam's hosting of al Qaeda No. 2, Ayman Zawahiri beginning in the early 1990?s, and reports of a large payment of money to Zawahiri in 1998?
-- Saddam?s ten years of harboring of 1993 World Trade Center bomber Abdul Rahman Yasin?
-- Iraqi Intelligence Service operatives being dispatched to meet with bin Laden in Afghanistan in 1998 (the year of bin Laden?s fatwa demanding the killing of all Americans, as well as the embassy bombings)?
-- Saddam?s official press lionizing bin Laden as ?an Arab and Islamic hero? following the 1998 embassy bombing attacks?
-- The continued insistence of high-ranking Clinton administration officials to the 9/11 Commission that the 1998 retaliatory strikes (after the embassy bombings) against a Sudanese pharmaceutical factory were justified because the factory was a chemical weapons hub tied to Iraq and bin Laden?
-- Top Clinton administration counterterrorism official Richard Clarke?s assertions, based on intelligence reports in 1999, that Saddam had offered bin Laden asylum after the embassy bombings, and Clarke?s memo to then-National Security Adviser Sandy Berger, advising him not to fly U-2 missions against bin Laden in Afghanistan because he might be tipped off by Pakistani Intelligence, and ?[a]rmed with that knowledge, old wily Usama will likely boogie to Baghdad?? (See 9/11 Commission Final Report, p. 134 & n.135.)
-- Terror master Abu Musab Zarqawi's choice to boogie to Baghdad of all places when he needed surgery after fighting American forces in Afghanistan in 2001?
-- Saddam's Intelligence Service running a training camp at Salman Pak, were terrorists were instructed in tactics for assassination, kidnapping and hijacking?
-- Former CIA Director George Tenet?s October 7, 2002 letter to Congress, which asserted: Our understanding of the relationship between Iraq and Al Qaeda is evolving and is based on sources of varying reliability. Some of the information we have received comes from detainees, including some of high rank.
-- We have solid reporting of senior level contacts between Iraq and Al Qaeda going back a decade.
-- Credible information indicates that Iraq and Al Qaeda have discussed safe haven and reciprocal nonaggression.
-- Since Operation Enduring Freedom, we have solid evidence of the presence in Iraq of Al Qaeda members, including some that have been in Baghdad.
-- We have credible reporting that Al Qaeda leaders sought contacts in Iraq who could help them acquire WMD capabilities. The reporting also stated that Iraq has provided training to Al Qaeda members in the areas of poisons and gases and making conventional bombs.
-- Iraq's increasing support to extremist Palestinians coupled with growing indications of relationship with Al Qaeda suggest that Baghdad's links to terrorists will increase, even absent U.S. military action.
There's more. Stephen Hayes?s book, The Connection, remains required reading. But these are just the questions; the answers ? if someone will just investigate the questions rather than pretending there?s ?nothing whatsoever? there ? will provide more still.
So Gergen, Reid, the Times, and the rest are ?offended? at the president's reminding us of 9/11? The rest of us should be offended, too. Offended at the ?nothing whatsoever? crowd?s inexplicable lack of curiosity about these ties, and about the answers to these questions.
Just tell us one thing: Do you have any good answer to what Ahmed Hikmat Shakir was doing with the 9/11 hijackers in Kuala Lampur? Can you explain it?
If not, why aren't you moving heaven and earth to find out the answer?
? Andrew C. McCarthy, a former federal prosecutor, is a senior fellow at the Foundation for the Defense of Democracies.
--------------------
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 days, 19 hours
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Sycronica]
#4350406 - 06/29/05 01:54 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Sycronica writes:
Quote:
There is nothing to be gained in the long run from violence except more violence.
That statement is of course as completely wrong as any statement can possibly be, but I can see why you as a Pacifist feel compelled to toss it into discussion periodically.
Phred
--------------------
|
SoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst
Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4350492 - 06/29/05 02:21 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
looner2 said:
Explain why we must wait till the enemy steps on our soil to justify a military action.
Another question to this liberal moronic idea, what if the bad guys were launching missiles at us? Should we keep our troops home to use baseball bats against the incoming warheads? Hardly.
--------------------
Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man
|
mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,934
Last seen: 11 months, 9 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Phred]
#4350545 - 06/29/05 02:37 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Phred said:
Sycronica writes:
Quote:
There is nothing to be gained in the long run from violence except more violence.
That statement is of course as completely wrong as any statement can possibly be, but I can see why you as a Pacifist feel compelled to toss it into discussion periodically.
Phred
My sentiments exactly. None of us would exist without violence to spur evolution.
--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all
|
Sycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: mntlfngrs]
#4350673 - 06/29/05 03:11 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
So enlightenment doesn't spur evolution? Only violence? I think there is another way. I only wish I had the answer.
Or current war sure isn't spuring anyones evolution. It is deeprooting the beliefs of the fundamentalists on both sides. How is that evolving?
--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.
Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.
You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
|
mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,934
Last seen: 11 months, 9 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Sycronica]
#4351121 - 06/29/05 05:07 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sycronica said:
So enlightenment doesn't spur evolution? Only violence? I think there is another way. I only wish I had the answer.
Or current war sure isn't spurring any ones evolution. It is deeprooting the beliefs of the fundamentalists on both sides. How is that evolving?
Obviouly your putting words in my mounth but anyway, I didn't say anything about enlightenment. But you can't deny that up to recent times (last several thousand years) violence has been a prime driver of evolution. And to say that anything current isn't somehow helping evolution along is a narrow view that reflects your ideals.
--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all
|
Sycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: mntlfngrs]
#4351228 - 06/29/05 05:28 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
No, you didn't say anything about enlightenment. But you were making the case that war somehow is nessesary to evolution. I think we as humans are capable of evolving without the aid of large scale violence. Granted, violence has spurred changes in our world, but I don't know if I would call them changes "evolution". Since I view evolution as a natural process; where large scale, organized violence is hardly natural.
I'm just tired of the fighting myself. And all iraq had done has ensured the continuation of more fighting for future generations to inherit. When do we finally see peace to enjoy our "freedoms" that we fight for? When do the wars end so we can say, "see, we fought all these wars and learned from it so we can live in peace now"?
--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.
Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.
You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
|
mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,934
Last seen: 11 months, 9 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Sycronica]
#4351729 - 06/29/05 07:24 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sycronica said:
No, you didn't say anything about enlightenment. But you were making the case that war somehow is nessesary to evolution. I think we as humans are capable of evolving without the aid of large scale violence. Granted, violence has spurred changes in our world, but I don't know if I would call them changes "evolution". Since I view evolution as a natural process; where large scale, organized violence is hardly natural.
I'm just tired of the fighting myself. And all iraq had done has ensured the continuation of more fighting for future generations to inherit. When do we finally see peace to enjoy our "freedoms" that we fight for? When do the wars end so we can say, "see, we fought all these wars and learned from it so we can live in peace now"?
I wasn't making a case that large scale organized violence is needed for evolution. My point is that violence has been part of life since life began. The process of natural selection works by having a mutation that somehow enable an organism to avoid that violence. A tree frog develops a poisonous skin that allows it to avoid the violence of being eaten. Who is to say that today's violence is any different? The Extropians (http://www.extropy.org/) might say that today's violence is driving our evolution towards post-humanism. Maybe enough war will spur evolution towards a hypersensitivity towards violence. You are there man! Maybe the violence is a result of evolution that causes organisms to become violent towards each other when overcrowding occurs as a defense against a mass extinction caused by disease that spreads almost instantly because of overcrowding.
to say that a more evolved person is one who is a pacifist and abhors violence is lacking in critical thought and honesty with ones self IMO. I don't know the answer and I don't think anyone does.
Even if we are all connected to every other living thing tit doesn't negate the rightful place of violence in life. It is natural and in that respect right.
Don't get me wrong. If I see death and cruelty and violence it absolutely hurts my heart. Seeing a mistreated puppy or abused child absolutely breaks my heart. But just like the pack of wild dogs that is cruel to the albino pup, I can put it in its proper place of the ugly side of nature that no one likes to see but plays a role in the big picture..
Much creativity and innovation comes from pain and suffering. Utopia is hell in a pretty wrapper.
--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all
|
Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Sycronica]
#4352893 - 06/29/05 11:32 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Granted, violence has spurred changes in our world, but I don't know if I would call them changes "evolution".
Look at the history of life as a whole. You'll se violence has spurred evolution time and time again. Whether it's the slow dance of evolution between predator and prey, or evolution from mass destruction that ends one age and starts another, violence is one of the main forces of evolution.
I'd say it still holds true in the human world. Much of technology was originally developed for the purpose of furthering warfare, and was then utilized by the common man for nonviolent purposes.
Quote:
where large scale, organized violence is hardly natural.
Why do you say this? Killing 10,000 people in a war isn't natural, but killing billions of reptiles in a massive comet hit is? Natural and unnatural is an arbitrary distinction anyway; contrary to popular belief, humans are animals following their natural development.
Quote:
When do we finally see peace to enjoy our "freedoms" that we fight for?
When we take them. We don't have to wait for authority to give us freedoms, because in all honesty, chances are they won't.
Quote:
When do the wars end so we can say, "see, we fought all these wars and learned from it so we can live in peace now"?
When will animals stop killing each other, form a big circle and howl at the moon in unified peace?
When they die out. As long as there's humanity, there will always be violence. It's in our nature.
--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
|
daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Sycronica]
#4352999 - 06/29/05 11:49 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sycronica said:
To gain something you must show respect, caring and sincerity.
Anything to back this statement up? If person A has gold and person B kills them, then person A has gained something without respect, cairng, or sincerity. Your statement is false.
Quote:
Sycronica said:
There is nothing to be gained in the long run from violence except more violence. And america's history proves that.
The American Revolution gained us nothing? The Civil War gained us nothing?
Quote:
Sycronica said:
Or current war sure isn't spuring anyones evolution. It is deeprooting the beliefs of the fundamentalists on both sides. How is that evolving?
We will fight each other until the superior force wins. That superior force will reproduce with traits that allowed it to win and therefore evolve.
And if that is too much of a stretch, then the fundamentalists will evolve into more commited beings.
--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
|
Sycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: daimyo]
#4353527 - 06/30/05 01:25 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Go ahead, tear me apart lol. It's easy to nit pick. Any dumbass knows violence is a natural part of our world. Predator vs prey thing. But lining 2 armies up on the battlefield and seeing which one has the more crazy bad asses in it is hardly natural.
Where animals will fight among each other, but they will not poisen the only drinking well in the desert. And how far does it take to truely be satisfied you are the superior force? When there is no one on earth left and the victors are orbiting the planet marveling at their achievements? There is no evolution in that. Unless we are destined to destroy ourselves and that is the end point in our evolution. I always like the entertain the fantasy that something good will come out of all of this.
--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.
Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.
You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
|
TubOlucinogens
Stranger
Registered: 06/10/05
Posts: 299
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Sycronica]
#4353766 - 06/30/05 02:33 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
But lining 2 armies up on the battlefield and seeing which one has the more crazy bad asses in it is hardly natural.
This is incredibly natural.
If I were on the road, I'd probably have one of those bumper stickers in my rear window too. At least if I were traveling around the country.
|
Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,406
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 36 minutes, 36 seconds
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Swami]
#4353953 - 06/30/05 03:39 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I don't have a problem with this war.
It is doing far more good than harm.
--------------------
|
Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#4353961 - 06/30/05 03:41 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
For which side?
--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
|
Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,406
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 36 minutes, 36 seconds
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4353988 - 06/30/05 03:50 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The good guys.
Sucks for most of the bad guys with the exception of the 3% or so of "our boys" who are evil assholes who deserved to be analy raped to death by a big gay muslim.
And of course, the war profiteers.
--------------------
|
daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Sycronica]
#4354018 - 06/30/05 03:58 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sycronica said:
Go ahead, tear me apart lol. It's easy to nit pick. Any dumbass
 Couldn't resist.
Quote:
Sycronica said:
But lining 2 armies up on the battlefield and seeing which one has the more crazy bad asses in it is hardly natural.
Something that's been happening for thousands of years isn't natural? Please elaborate.
Quote:
Sycronica said:
Where animals will fight among each other, but they will not poisen the only drinking well in the desert.
Quote:
Sycronica said:
And how far does it take to truely be satisfied you are the superior force?
There is no end point. Keep bitchslaping punks that wanna fight until your number is up.
--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Sycronica]
#4354498 - 06/30/05 08:49 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Sycronica said:
Go ahead, tear me apart lol. It's easy to nit pick. Any dumbass knows violence is a natural part of our world. Predator vs prey thing. But lining 2 armies up on the battlefield and seeing which one has the more crazy bad asses in it is hardly natural.
Where animals will fight among each other, but they will not poisen the only drinking well in the desert. And how far does it take to truely be satisfied you are the superior force? When there is no one on earth left and the victors are orbiting the planet marveling at their achievements? There is no evolution in that. Unless we are destined to destroy ourselves and that is the end point in our evolution. I always like the entertain the fantasy that something good will come out of all of this.
What part of 3500 years of recorded history of warfare is unnatural to you? How about the countless groups and nations that have been wiped from the face of this planet? If you are unable to see reality of the human existence, then you are unable or unwilling to fully comprehend and embrace your own instincts.
Your utopia of world peace sounds absolutely fucking amazingly beautiful and wonderful to the ^100000. But please, tie a bullseye on your ass and preach to those who want to kill you of the virtues of peace. Don't, however, try to drag our nation into your idealism, for our very existence, and those who will come after us is at stake.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
Grav
Registered: 02/06/02
Posts: 4,454
Loc:
Last seen: 4 months, 25 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4354556 - 06/30/05 09:32 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
I think war can be honorable.
I think we need real honest leaders to bring our tribe into combat to ensure our survival.
I DON'T think we need snivelling little businessmen running the show.
But that's another issue altogether.
|
niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: moog]
#4354752 - 06/30/05 11:19 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
moog said:
I might support the troops if they were doing something more honorable, like defending against an invasion, or directly defending freedom.
You cant fault the troops for what their government MADE THEM DO.
Quote:
But what they're doing in Iraq is not honorable. It's a disgrace.
I agree.
However....
Quote:
The armed forces are being used as pawns for profiteering and economic strategy.
There you have it....they are being used by the government
Many soldiers would rather be anywhere else in the world but Iraq.
Don't blame them for the situation their government put them in.
Quote:
The ONLY reason they're there at all is for economic interests. You know it and I know it. Anyone who thinks these soldiers are fighting for good will or humanitarianism, to rid the world of terrorism or tyranny, is deluding themselves. Follow the money.
Your blaming the messenger.
How is it the soldiers fault where the government puts them.
It isn't their fault they are in a combat situation.
Your suffering from displaced anger syndrome
You should be angry at the government, for putting our children at risk........
not the troops.
|
Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,406
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 36 minutes, 36 seconds
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: snoopaloop53]
#4354794 - 06/30/05 11:38 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
snoopaloop53 said:
You should support the troops because we are the young men and women actually making a difference in the world. We are actually out there making things better for people in other parts of the world. We are selflessly going to where the rubber meets the road so that others can live better lives. What have you done?
IT IS THE SOLDIER
It is the soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves under the flag,
Whose coffin is draped in the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.
?Copyright 1970-2005 by Charles M. Province
Soldiers do what they are told to do. If were told to shoot reporters and flag burners they would do it.
They don't grant rights.
Most of them don't give a flying fuck about freedom, neither do most Americans.
If you want to start giving "soldiers" credit for stuff, try "bayby killin", rape, genocide, etc...
How many innocent civilians have you and your co-conspirators killed?
What's funny is, while the soldiers were murdering Americans for burning flags, they would be thinking to themselves "Freedom isn't free! Gotta protect freedom! Gotta kill this crazy sociopath burnin my flag so us good Americans can have our freedom!"
Open your mind.TM
--------------------
Edited by Baby_Hitler (06/30/05 11:45 AM)
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Grav]
#4354797 - 06/30/05 11:39 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Grav said:
I think war can be honorable.
I think we need real honest leaders to bring our tribe into combat to ensure our survival.
I DON'T think we need snivelling little businessmen running the show.
But that's another issue altogether.
How about it? Gone are the days that the king leads his men into battle. No better way to ask someone to die for your cause, then if you lead it yourself. We need real leaders.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
downforpot
Stranger
Registered: 06/25/01
Posts: 5,715
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4354921 - 06/30/05 12:36 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You people are trying to make humans look like some highly advanced life form that doesn't need war... Remember, we're just mammals, animals... There is conflict and killing everywhere in nature, get used to reality, the 60's are over, your 8 dollar hit of acid won't give you understanding or eternal bliss.
--------------------
http://www.myspace.com/4th25
"And I don't care if he was handcuffed
Then shot in his head
All I know is dead bodies
Can't fuck with me again"
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 days, 19 hours
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: downforpot]
#4354929 - 06/30/05 12:40 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Hell, even dolphins murder each other, for crying out loud.
Phred
--------------------
|
Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,406
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 36 minutes, 36 seconds
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: downforpot]
#4354948 - 06/30/05 12:45 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Why do we "need" war?
And why do the actions of dolphins justify baby rapin'?
--------------------
|
1stimer
Religion=Rape
Registered: 11/18/01
Posts: 1,280
Loc: Amerika
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: niteowl]
#4354961 - 06/30/05 12:49 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
The armed forces are being used as pawns for profiteering and economic strategy.
Then why is the re-enlistment rate so high?
--------------------
ash dingy donker mo gollyhopper patty popiton rockstop bueno mayo riggedy jig bobber johnathan pattywhacker gogboob t-shirt monkey.
There is such emotion in the distortion.
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 days, 19 hours
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#4354975 - 06/30/05 12:54 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Baby_Hitler writes:
Quote:
Why do we "need" war?
To prevent those who wish to kill us or enslave us from doing so, duh.
Phred
--------------------
|
IsaacHunt
Stranger
Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 176
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Phred]
#4355009 - 06/30/05 01:11 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
To prevent those who wish to kill us or enslave us from doing so, duh.
Iraq attempted to kill or enslave Americans?
|
daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: IsaacHunt]
#4355032 - 06/30/05 01:19 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Yes. They shot at our planes every day. Even managed to down a couple of spy planes.
--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
|
niteowl
GrandPaw
Registered: 07/01/03
Posts: 16,291
Loc:
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: 1stimer]
#4355059 - 06/30/05 01:26 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
1stimer said:
Quote:
The armed forces are being used as pawns for profiteering and economic strategy.
Then why is the re-enlistment rate so high?
If you have spent your whole life training to be a soldier......why quit.
Blaming any war on the soldier is foolish. Getting mad at the troops on the ground is a waste of energy.
If you believe the war is unjust fight to get the troops brought home.
--------------------
Live for the moment you are in nowDon't be bogged down by your pastDon't be afraid of what lies in your future
|
Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,406
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 36 minutes, 36 seconds
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: daimyo]
#4355064 - 06/30/05 01:28 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You mean the US government?
I think it's time for "hero soldier" snoopaloop53 to perform his self-proclaimed duty and go kill congress.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/06/22/congress.flagburning.ap/
--------------------
|
IsaacHunt
Stranger
Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 176
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: daimyo]
#4355070 - 06/30/05 01:31 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
They shot at our planes every day
You mean the planes that were dropping tons of bombs on them? And how many did they actually hit?
|
daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#4355074 - 06/30/05 01:32 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
You mean the US government?
No. I meant the American pilots.
--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
|
SoopaX
Criminal DrugAnalyst
Registered: 11/13/04
Posts: 1,690
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: IsaacHunt]
#4355082 - 06/30/05 01:35 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
IsaacHunt said:
Quote:
They shot at our planes every day
You mean the planes that were dropping tons of bombs on them? And how many did they actually hit?
Bope, spy planes during the "cease fire". They shot at them. OF course, why should you care? Even though we weren't bombing them, your reality won't allow a scenario to exist where a madman who murders and gasses people is morally worse than America. So who cares. Yes, those planes. With the new baby-buster bombs that we developed that only target pre-schools. And saddam was rushing to help the young and kiss baby seals. Clearly, it's entirely our fault.
--------------------
Jackie Treehorn treats objects like women, man
|
daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: IsaacHunt]
#4355087 - 06/30/05 01:37 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
IsaacHunt said:
Quote:
They shot at our planes every day
You mean the planes that were dropping tons of bombs on them? And how many did they actually hit?
No. I mean the planes that were enforcing the no-fly zones. If they got shot at or bombed it was because they violated the zone.
Don't know any exact figures. Google it if you want to know.
--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
|
IsaacHunt
Stranger
Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 176
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: daimyo]
#4355120 - 06/30/05 01:48 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
If they got shot at or bombed it was because they violated the zone
The point here is Iraq was not threatening to kill or enslave Americans who wern't flying over it dropping bombs.
|
Sycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: IsaacHunt]
#4355238 - 06/30/05 02:20 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
The reason war is not natural is because it requires manipulation. Humans just don't wake up one day and think, "hey, lets all gather and kill everyone in the town next to me". They are manipulated into thinking that it is easier to gain something by taking than by working together to accomplish something greater.
War may have become human nature, but it is NOT mother nature. Violence in the natural world is NOT orgainzied or large scale. (omg lets compare a nuke to a meteor  ) Many things humans do are not natural. War is one of them. Look at how we are completly FAILING to co-exist with our enviornment. I suppose the all the enviornmental problems that can be traced to humans are just another natural thing? 
I allways loved the matrix anology when Agent Smith is talking to Morphious about how humans are a virus, how we spread from one area to the next using up all the natural resources and leaving the area dry and barren. Then moving to the next area and doing the same thing. Just like a virus.
I believe it is in fact those who justify violence that are holding our species back from a greater existence. But hey, it's not good for business to realize material objects are not important.
--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.
Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.
You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 days, 19 hours
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Sycronica]
#4355342 - 06/30/05 02:45 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Sycronica writes:
Quote:
Humans just don't wake up one day and think, "hey, lets all gather and kill everyone in the town next to me". They are manipulated into thinking that it is easier to gain something by taking than by working together to accomplish something greater.
Manipulated by whom? Why, by other humans, duh.
Quote:
Violence in the natural world is NOT orgainzied or large scale.
Never studied the behavior of ants in school, I see. Let me guess -- you went to a government school, didn't you?
Quote:
Look at how we are completly FAILING to co-exist with our enviornment.
Like beavers.
Quote:
I allways loved the matrix anology when Agent Smith is talking to Morphious about how humans are a virus, how we spread from one area to the next using up all the natural resources and leaving the area dry and barren. Then moving to the next area and doing the same thing. Just like a virus.
And who is it who manipulates viruses into behaving this way? When you figure that one out, explain to us how the behavior of viruses is not part of nature.
Quote:
I believe it is in fact those who justify violence that are holding our species back from a greater existence.
Those who initiate violence are of course in the wrong. Those who advocate letting the violent have their way *cough* Pacifists *cough* are holding our species back from a greater existence.
Phred
--------------------
|
Sycronica
Seeker
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 376
Loc: Inside my head
Last seen: 7 years, 7 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Phred]
#4355375 - 06/30/05 02:52 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Why must you label me? Does it make you feel better? I am not a full on pacifist. I am not a full on anything except human of the planet earth. Which would be the only thing you could call me that would be accurate.
But I am getting bored. There is no prize to be gained by proving myself here. I am just a dreamer and it is a very dissapointing occupation.
--------------------
Think for yourself. Question authority.
Forgiveness is the ultimate sacrifice.
You can fool some people sometimes, but you can't fool all the people all the time.
|
Ravus
Not an EggshellWalker
Registered: 07/18/03
Posts: 7,991
Loc: Cave of the Patriarchs
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Phred]
#4355413 - 06/30/05 03:04 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Those who initiate violence are of course in the wrong.
How is violence wrong? Should we just completely forsake one of the main methods of natural selection?
Violence is seen as wrong because the moral view of violence being wrong may help our individual survival by discouraging actions that would threaten us, but in nature might still makes right.
Quote:
Those who advocate letting the violent have their way *cough* Pacifists *cough* are holding our species back from a greater existence.
The pacifists try to hold back responding to violence with violence. The pacifists do truely try to stop violence, but human nature is naturally violent, and if one side withdraws the other side will advance. Who is the violent one and who is the good one is all a subjective point of view in the end.
--------------------
So long as you are praised think only that you are not yet on your own path but on that of another.
|
daimyo
Monticello
Registered: 05/13/04
Posts: 7,751
Last seen: 1 year, 3 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Ravus]
#4355462 - 06/30/05 03:19 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Natural selection will take care of pacificts on it's own.
What I want to know is, when did violence become so tabboo? Hippies in the 60s?
--------------------
"I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man."
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#4355468 - 06/30/05 03:22 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:
snoopaloop53 said:
You should support the troops because we are the young men and women actually making a difference in the world. We are actually out there making things better for people in other parts of the world. We are selflessly going to where the rubber meets the road so that others can live better lives. What have you done?
IT IS THE SOLDIER
It is the soldier, not the reporter
Who has given us freedom of the press.
It is the soldier, not the poet
Who has given us freedom of speech.
It is the soldier, not the campus organizer
Who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.
It is the soldier, not the lawyer
Who has given us the right to a fair trial.
It is the soldier
Who salutes the flag,
Who serves under the flag,
Whose coffin is draped in the flag,
Who allows the protester to burn the flag.
?Copyright 1970-2005 by Charles M. Province
Soldiers do what they are told to do. If were told to shoot reporters and flag burners they would do it.
They don't grant rights.
Most of them don't give a flying fuck about freedom, neither do most Americans.
If you want to start giving "soldiers" credit for stuff, try "bayby killin", rape, genocide, etc...
How many innocent civilians have you and your co-conspirators killed?
What's funny is, while the soldiers were murdering Americans for burning flags, they would be thinking to themselves "Freedom isn't free! Gotta protect freedom! Gotta kill this crazy sociopath burnin my flag so us good Americans can have our freedom!"
Open your mind.TM
Soldiers don't need to be philosophical in their duties or be a combination of both bravery and having a thorough understanding of world politics. Soldiers should be praised and rewarded by those who understand this world better then them, and affirm that they do in fact, deserve the praise.
I am NOT calling them dumb barbarians however. There are certain individuals better suited for things than others. Soldiers are giving their lives and face the ultimate fear, death. That alone is worthy of the admirations we give to them, such as bravery, heroism, and honor.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
Schwip
Never sleeps.
Registered: 06/27/05
Posts: 3,937
Last seen: 5 months, 29 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4355521 - 06/30/05 03:39 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Soldiers are giving their lives and face the ultimate fear, death. That alone is worthy of the admirations we give to them, such as bravery, heroism, and honor.
Exactly!!! Well said..... Thanks
-s
--------------------
--------------------------------
" If the sky were to suddenly open up there would be no law. There would be no rule. There would only be you and your memories... the choices you've made, and the people you've touched. If this world were to end there would only be you and him and no-one else. "
..............
"MAN! You know there aint no such thing as left over crack!"
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 days, 19 hours
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Sycronica]
#4355669 - 06/30/05 04:20 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Sycronica writes:
Quote:
Why must you label me? Does it make you feel better?
I didn't label you, you labelled yourself. Does it make you feel any better to label me falsely -- i.e. equating me with Scott McLellan?
All I am doing is pointing out that Pacifists such as yourself have a view of life not consistent with reality. Any attempt to live one's life while ignoring reality is fraught with danger, therefore readers of your comments deserve to be warned that your observations are based on a world-view out of touch with reality and that they should take that into consideration when weighing your arguments.
Quote:
I am not a full on pacifist.
Hmmm. So when you said in post #4338979 http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/4328732/page/2/fpart/3/vc/1 ...
Quote:
"And yes I am a full blown pacifist in theory."
and
Quote:
"But I will not raise a gun to another person under any circumstances (it's pointless, if I shoot someone, then someone they knew will want to shoot me; violence begets violence). Not even to defend my country..."
... you were being untruthful? Please tell the readers of this forum how we are to determine in which posts you tell the truth and which ones you don't. It will save us a lot of confusion in future.
Phred
--------------------
|
IsaacHunt
Stranger
Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 176
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Phred]
#4355869 - 06/30/05 04:55 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
All I am doing is pointing out that Pacifists such as yourself have a view of life not consistent with reality. Any attempt to live one's life while ignoring reality is fraught with danger, therefore readers of your comments deserve to be warned that your observations are based on a world-view out of touch with reality and that they should take that into consideration when weighing your arguments.
Reality as you see it perhaps. Many of the greatest men in human history have been pacifists. Their ideas will live long after George Bush is forgotten rotten in his grave.
|
Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 5 days, 19 hours
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: IsaacHunt]
#4355901 - 06/30/05 05:01 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
IsaacHunt writes:
Quote:
Reality as you see it perhaps.
No, reality as it is.
Quote:
Many of the greatest men in human history have been pacifists.
The only reason such men lived long enough to be even remembered is because other men who had a firm grasp of the nature of reality dealt violently with violence on behalf of those Pacifists.
Phred
--------------------
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: IsaacHunt]
#4356024 - 06/30/05 05:28 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
IsaacHunt said:
Quote:
All I am doing is pointing out that Pacifists such as yourself have a view of life not consistent with reality. Any attempt to live one's life while ignoring reality is fraught with danger, therefore readers of your comments deserve to be warned that your observations are based on a world-view out of touch with reality and that they should take that into consideration when weighing your arguments.
Reality as you see it perhaps. Many of the greatest men in human history have been pacifists. Their ideas will live long after George Bush is forgotten rotten in his grave.
It is one thing to be aware of the current human condition and want to change it to something better, it is altogether scary and sad when reality cannot even be properly assessed.
Have you not read this thread whatsoever? 3500 years of recorded warfare passed through your brain without a register of what history has told us?
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,406
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 36 minutes, 36 seconds
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: daimyo]
#4356752 - 06/30/05 09:11 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
That was supposed to be a reply to Phred:
Quote:
To prevent those who wish to kill us or enslave us from doing so, duh.
Then I suggested that the military really wanted to protect freedom by killing people, they would be killing American Congressmen.
--------------------
|
Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,406
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 36 minutes, 36 seconds
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4356760 - 06/30/05 09:12 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Have you not read this thread whatsoever? 3500 years of recorded warfare passed through your brain without a register of what history has told us?
That war is pointless, but some people are hard to convince and do it anyway?
--------------------
|
Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,406
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 36 minutes, 36 seconds
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4356774 - 06/30/05 09:16 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Soldiers are giving their lives and face the ultimate fear, death. That alone is worthy of the admirations we give to them, such as bravery, heroism, and honor.
So we should give them the same respect that we give our enemies?
...and Evil Kineval?
--------------------
|
looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
#4356952 - 06/30/05 10:12 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:
Soldiers are giving their lives and face the ultimate fear, death. That alone is worthy of the admirations we give to them, such as bravery, heroism, and honor.
So we should give them the same respect that we give our enemies?
Enemies that deserve it.
Although our current enemies in Iraq like their wives and children to take the first bullets.
--------------------
I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
|
IsaacHunt
Stranger
Registered: 05/27/05
Posts: 176
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: looner2]
#4365591 - 07/03/05 07:15 AM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
3500 years of recorded warfare passed through your brain without a register of what history has told us?
History has told us the average person does not want war. Ask people around you if they wish to go and fight a war. See what answer you get. Ordinary people want peace.
Look at the millions of people who protested against the farcial bloodbath in Iraq. Do you think people "wanted" war in Iraq? If so why Did Bush have to make up the laughable fantasy of WMD?
There is a lot of money to be made from war for a very small percentage of human beings, unfortunately these tend to be the human beings who wield great power.
|
Redstorm
Prince of Bugs
Registered: 10/08/02
Posts: 44,162
Loc: [life]now[/life]
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: IsaacHunt]
#4366079 - 07/03/05 12:20 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
What part of history told you that average people do not want war? I bet that "history" would have been in the past 50 years or so.
Greek and Roman citizens felt honored to fight in battle against their enemies, and felt they owed their governments a favor for allowing them to live in a democracy.
The American Revolution was applauded by average citizens, as was the Civil War.
When World War I broke out, there were celebrations in the streets in almost every country that was fighting.
If you are going to say something non-factual as "History has told us the average person does not want war.", you should first back it up with some proof. Most people do not mind going to war if there is a good reason to do so.
|
mntlfngrs
The Art of Casterbation
Registered: 07/18/02
Posts: 3,934
Last seen: 11 months, 9 days
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: IsaacHunt]
#4369526 - 07/04/05 03:25 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
Quote:
IsaacHunt said:
Quote:
3500 years of recorded warfare passed through your brain without a register of what history has told us?
History has told us the average person does not want war. Ask people around you if they wish to go and fight a war. See what answer you get. Ordinary people want peace.
Look at the millions of people who protested against the farcial bloodbath in Iraq. Do you think people "wanted" war in Iraq? If so why Did Bush have to make up the laughable fantasy of WMD?
There is a lot of money to be made from war for a very small percentage of human beings, unfortunately these tend to be the human beings who wield great power.
And then they go play a first person shooter game or snuggle in to watch a good violent action movie. I find there tends to be a difference between what people say in polite conversation and what they actually think or do when it comes right down to it.
--------------------
Be all and you'll be to end all
|
zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,336
Last seen: 41 minutes, 7 seconds
|
Re: what if i don't want to support "our" troops? [Re: mntlfngrs]
#4369679 - 07/04/05 04:48 PM (7 years, 10 months ago) |
|
|
They will say" no" because, of course, they don't "want" war. Only little children think that life is about what you want. Mostly it's about what you need and what you have to do to survive. Some people are scummy. That's why we need police.
--------------------
|
|
Images only 
Threaded
Previous
Index
Next
Shop for: 
Edit 
Reply 
