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-------------------- Acid doesn't give you truths; it builds machines that push the envelope of perception. Whatever revelations came to me then have dissolved like skywriting. All I really know is that those few years saddled me with a faith in the redemptive potential of the imagination which, however flat, stale and unprofitable the world seems to me now, I cannot for the life of me shake.
-Erik Davis
Thank you OMR I really appreciate that. And don't think we won't be constantly monitoring the situation, ready to backtrack if it appears we are drawing unwanted attention. This is new ground for us too, we're just a little more optimistic about the outcome I guess.
Quote: Ythan said:I'm harsh in my posts because I think it's obnoxious when people who take advantage of our free services and do nothing for the Shroomery decide it's their right to start telling us how to run things.
Well, considering that I donate a helluva amount of my free time to General Questions and Other Drugs Discussion, as well as I am *constantly* offering to help you guys with *any* programming you have / need... I'm not being obnoxious, am I?
Also, I just did a low-key check in a random IRC channel of more than 50 people. No one knew what the shroomery was without google. That's low key to me.
Quote: Ythan said: I'm harsh in my posts because I think it's obnoxious when people who take advantage of our free services and do nothing for the Shroomery decide it's their right to start telling us how to run things.
wow, that is not cool without the members, there would BE no shroomery. We all contribute in our own way. Maybe I'm not a programmer, what gives? but I can help ID actives for people, and I have and I do.
I understand that you guys need to make decisions, but I think alot of these were made without keeping the members in their best interest. You'll lose valuable posters to a swarm of newbies, you'll get high schoolers, you'll drive spores to being illegal and who knows what other ethneogens. I know we have a large member base, but do we need more... THOUSANDS more?? And these people went and GOOGLED mushrooms--seeking info. NOT ADVERTISING. BIG difference.
anyways, zieg heil, guess the decisions done and you're worthless members dont mean anything... not that we ever did, apparantly
-------------------- "Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."
Quote: Psilygirl said: wow, that is not cool without the members, there would BE no shroomery. We all contribute in our own way. Maybe I'm not a programmer, what gives? but I can help ID actives for people, and I have and I do.
This was also somewhat my point, phrased differently, and I am a programmer
-------------------- ./configure --without-sanity --without-logic --without-regret
01100110011101010110001101101011011110010110111101110101
jaded = safe != happy
Were not familly, we are the shroomery, and to some thats thicker than blood.
Hehe, no no d9 I'm not talking about you specifically or even any individual in particular. And some mods have also voiced opposition, nobody can argue they don't contribute to the site. I guess I just feel we're being ganged up on and it kind of makes me less receptive to what everyone has to say. It's always been my position that we're nothing without our members and they all have some degree of ownership in the site. At the same time I think we have a pretty good track record when it comes to managing the Shroomery's growth and I wish people would have a little more faith in our abilities.
I think maybe the real issue here is that I haven't had my morning coffee . I'll be back in a few minutes with 10x more energy and 10x less attitude.
Sweet, look forward to it - it's quite understandable how you'd feel ganged up on. I've only seen one member totally for it, and maybe two (regular) members in this topic say they are wary but look forward to it. There just isn't much of a pro-voice here.
Last night (errr, this morning), when I first posted in this topic, I thought it would be interesting (and save time) to read (or get excerpts from) the mod/admin debate.
Probably would make it less redundant for you, as we probably aren't saying anything that new, and I am genuinely interested in some of the admin/mod team's replies, as they are generally great posters.
Quote: Psilygirl said: wow, that is not cool without the members, there would BE no shroomery. We all contribute in our own way. Maybe I'm not a programmer, what gives? but I can help ID actives for people, and I have and I do. [...] anyways, zieg heil, guess the decisions done and you're worthless members dont mean anything... not that we ever did, apparantly
No I see what you're saying and I didn't mean to imply that our members are worthless or that the admins are singlehandedly responsible for the site's success. I'm sorry if I seem ungrateful for the contributions our members have made but in all fairness, you guys are coming off as kind of ungrateful for what we do too. I don't think it's fair to say we treat our members' concerns as meaningless, in general we have a great record of acting on the community's wishes. At the same time please understand we do a lot for the site, more than I think most people realize, and when we feel strongly about an administrative decision we have to be free to make that final call. We can never please everybody so ultimately we just have to do what we think is best, but we are always accountable for our actions and if we make a mistake we'll do everything in our power to fix it.
Sure, I think I've made my position clear (maybe a little too clear heh) but you're right, the mods and other admins did have some insightful comments. I'll leave it up to the individuals what they wish to repost, but I'll try to take some time today or tomorrow to address individual concerns so people can better understand where we're coming from.
Quote: Ythan said: Hehe, no no d9 I'm not talking about you specifically or even any individual in particular. And some mods have also voiced opposition, nobody can argue they don't contribute to the site. I guess I just feel we're being ganged up on and it kind of makes me less receptive to what everyone has to say. It's always been my position that we're nothing without our members and they all have some degree of ownership in the site. At the same time I think we have a pretty good track record when it comes to managing the Shroomery's growth and I wish people would have a little more faith in our abilities.
as was said above, i also trust your judgement and have faith in your abilities, Ythan, and appreciate when you say you are prepared to backtrack if this blows up in our faces. i am one of those greens who strongly disagrees with the idea, but i accept that this is an admin decision. i'm glad to see this thread here in feedback forum though, and also that everyone is being respectful in their choice of words. did all the 8 admins really unanimously agree on this, as you said - cos that really surprises me. actually i'm more surprised that you didn't anticipate the negative response from shroomery members, especially the long-termers?
it's the idea of trying to use the press to our advantage that most bothers me, not a few flyers at festivals. the latter will attract the free-thinkers we embrace, the former is an uncontrollable snowball on its way to hell.
I am not at all ungrateful, I do know you guys work hard and it shows.
I am merely concerned, and I think by having members express concerns--as we have--it will hopefully make any decisions being made thought about a little more deeply and carefully. I am not ungrateful, and I dont think that anyone here feels that way. We are simply concerned with the future with the shroomery and OMC in general. Counter-cultures usually survive just as that--not in the public spotlight. I just worry about cultivation forums disappearing in light of govt/public spotlight, etc.
anyways, I'm sure you guys thought of this, and I'm sorry for coming across as rude, I am just VERY concerned about this. I would also be interested to hear some of the logic of the Admins... and what the ultimate goals and reasons are that outweigh the obvious risks.
-------------------- "Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."
Quote: wow, that is not cool without the members, there would BE no shroomery. We all contribute in our own way. Maybe I'm not a programmer, what gives? but I can help ID actives for people, and I have and I do.
John Allen writes books on the subject, goes to conferences, openly spreads the word on safely identifying mushrooms. This does good for the whole community as it shows we want people to be safe and smart out there. He should not only do this, but spread the word even more if he can. Imagine if people like him felt it was best to hide his passion for this hobby and not share his knowledge with the world.
Quote: I understand that you guys need to make decisions, but I think alot of these were made without keeping the members in their best interest.
I know you're mad when posting this so I won't take offense. I've spent countless years here as well as the other admins doing the dirty work of running a large drug based website. In fact I've had the distinct displeasure of dealing with the media and documentary film makers after the sad death of our friend Ripper (Brandon). The amount of heat our website was under was unreal, we had reporters in our chat rooms, people emailing me from CNN, BBC, etc.. Even had a long AIM chat with a reporter from the NY Daily news, which actually ended up being a reporter who helped the Shroomery by keeping our name out of her report which was a report that was picked up on the wires and copied, which was great since nobody even mentioned our website. To this day I can't believe how well we handled this media blitz on our home.
I spent countless hours investigating threats of lawsuits on our site for numerous threats we've recieved over the years. I've spoken with an internet law specialist who's also a professor in UCLA. We've learned so much about what threats we could face and what we've learned is vast.
In fact I many years back opened a back channel of sorts with the other major drug sites like Erowid, Lyceaum, etc.. Who we all agreed to keep in the loop if we faced any threats from the anti-drug mad USA or even special interest groups.
Now could I put into hours the workload I personally have spent dealing with internet law, legal threats, etc..? No, but we are not naive by any stretch of the imagination, we'd never put our community in harms way.
Quote: You'll lose valuable posters to a swarm of newbies, you'll get high schoolers, you'll drive spores to being illegal and who knows what other ethneogens.
The site constantly grows, and always will. The idea of people at cool events being attracted to visit I think is way better than kids sitting at school looking up ways to get high after class. We are promoting #1 safe/smart use of mushrooms, dispelling common myths, and that to me is information we should not hesitate to be actively trying to spread. That is our mandate since 1997, to stop the dangerous spread of mis-information out there, and believe me we all know there is a lot of that.
Quote: anyways, zieg heil, guess the decisions done and you're worthless members dont mean anything... not that we ever did, apparantly
Sigh, I love being called a nazi dictator These Admins are all friends of mine, every one of them cares more about this community than they should. All of us are users of the site too, we are part of this community. But in all instances someone does have to make decisions that not everyone will like. This has been the case since day one, Ythan created this place and he could run it like many other site admins, with no input, and doing things he wants with no regard for the community of users.
However he does not, in fact we all care deeply about the repurcussions of our actions and decisions. We don't take things lightly nor carelessly.
I guess its one thing people will always have a problem with because you don't see what these admins do behind the scenes, how much countless hours and how much debate we all put into the future of the website.
I believe strongly in not hiding, I think its key that we promote safe/smart drug use instead of allowing DARE and others to fill people's heads with lies.
Information is power, and we have an ability and oppertunity here to empower thousands of people directly. That is something we should do under the website's mandate.
The idea of a shroomery street team was agreed upon fully, the details is what we are all working on now.
Is this press release a fully decided thing? Nope These are the early brainstorming ideas, and honestly part of it is to see what the public has to say as well as the mods cause we do appreciate that we will not always have all the answers/ideas
Ythan and Zippoz, I am sorry if this thread has made either of you or the other mods who made this decision feel ganged up on. It was not my intent to brew trouble and I am wondering if I should have said anything in the first place. You have to admit, it's made for good debat though.
I am NOT ungrateful either. The services you provide here are invaluable. That being said, there are obviously quite a few people concerned over the effects this may have on the community here. And yes, some of your posts have seemed... well, a bit like you don't care at all what we think. I doubt that you really don't care, but I think that some of the hotter posts we're seeing in this thread may have been spurred by the attitude conveyed in those earlier posts.
I will put my faith the board's decisions and hope that the Shroomery will only become better because of this decision. As you have said many times, the decision is final. As such, perhaps instead of complaining we should all focus on how we may be able to help make this happen WITHOUT all the fears we've been expressing. "mmMMMMmmm, wise we must be." (sorry, just got back from star wars)
--------------------
"We must see that consciousness is neither an isolated soul nor the mere function of a single nervous system, but of that totality of interrelated stars and galaxies which makes a nervous system possible."
Quote: Thor said: ...Ythan created this place and he could run it like many other site admins, with no input, and doing things he wants with no regard for the community of users.
Agreed. Ythan responded to my inquiry as to why the thread was locked in a very professional manner. He did not have to re-open this thread.
--------------------
"We must see that consciousness is neither an isolated soul nor the mere function of a single nervous system, but of that totality of interrelated stars and galaxies which makes a nervous system possible."
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without the members, there would BE no shroomery. We all contribute in our own way. Maybe I'm not a programmer, what gives? but I can help ID actives for people, and I have and I do.
"We must see that consciousness is neither an isolated soul nor the mere function of a single nervous system, but of that totality of interrelated stars and galaxies which makes a nervous system possible."
