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OfflineFrappy
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Registered: 09/17/04
Posts: 1,280
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 8 years, 20 days
Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions
    #4189350 - 05/18/05 01:17 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Since there is not much information available online about how to care for this plant, I figured I'd do a write up offering what information I have been able to learn and gather. Please familiarize yourself with these instructions thoroughly; Kratom is not the easiest plant to accommodate.

If you are fortunate enough to acquire one of these wonderful, rare plants chances are you will be receiving a live rooted cutting. Kratom is viable by seed for only a few weeks, so cuttings are the most common way to propagate this plant. The plant can be purchased online if you know where to find it, but it is often out of stock, as it is rare and a moderately difficult plant to grow and care for. Do not be discouraged, your new plant will thrive, given the proper care and attention.

When your plant arrives, carefully remove the plant from the box, minding use of sharp instruments, cut the tape, not the box in a warmer area, free from drafts to avoid dehydration. Carefully remove all packaging disturbing the plant as little as possible. Your plant may or may not be noticeably wilted. This is to be expected from the shock of transport. Do not be alarmed if it looks a little 'sad'. Keep plant away from direct artificial or natural light for at least a day. A dimly lit room, such as the counter or table top in front of drawn shades or blinds is considered indirect lighting. It needs to adjust to the new environment.

Water the plant generously, but do not allow to stand in water for more than 2-3 hours per day. The plant should 'perk' up within a few hours. Give another drink if needed after being revived.

This plant will need acclimation to direct sunlight. You may acclimate it by gradually increasing the amount of daily exposure 30 minutes to 1 hour per day over the next week or two. Any greater exposure to direct sunlight may risk significant sunburn. Keep a close eye on the plant and adjust accordingly.

Kratom is a very interesting species that will require VERY well-drained soil. I highly recommend Miracle-Gro potting mix as an excellent source of nutrients for proper leaf production and plant stability. Kratom requires an ample amount of lighting that is very bright, however not harsh sun. If adequate lighting is not maintained consistently, leaf drop will occur quite severely until the plant can use what light is available. You may find the use of fluorescent lighting to be amicable and ultimately will be easier to control during the shorter winter months. Consider the plant's native habit, Thailand and Africa, where the tropical zones are moist and warm and days are long. Should artificial lighting be impractical for your needs, 4-5 hours of early morning sun should be sufficient.

The temperature that you may find comfortable will ultimately make your new plant comfortable. Much higher than 90 degrees F and leaf production is slowed slightly, although the plant loves plenty of humidity and higher temps. Much lower than 50 degrees F and the plant will stop growing pretty much altogether; remaining dormant until warmer temperatures are maintained all the while, dropping nearly every leaf. Please understand this plant is tropical in nature and will not survive freezing temperatures.

You should want to water when the very top of soil becomes slightly dry in appearance or to touch. Lack of sufficient water will result in smaller stunted leaves and much slower growth. Misting once or twice daily will help alleviate stress of a drier climate as well help prevent many opportunities for pests which often prefer the dry undersides and joints of plants in general. Kratom prefers fairly damp, VERY well-drained potting soil. I use ONLY miracle-gro potting mix for the Kratom. No moss, no vermiculite, nothing but the potting mix. Root growth, again, is rather slow, allowing you to keep the plant potted longer.

If you do not keep the soil moistened, the leaves will still continue to grow, however, they seem to have a slightly sticky resin that keeps them clasped together before they are actually released from the xylem meristem tissue. The higher the relative moisture the plant is exposed to, the less viscous the sticky resin is; which in turn, allows the mirrored leaves to easily separate from each other. If the moisture content drops even a little, the resin becomes more sticky and the leaflets hold together more tightly. The leaves still emerge, but the stickiness tends to tear the edges slightly like this:



If the moisture content is balanced the leaves will open freely and appear with no tears or serration's like so:



The hard part is just getting the balance between too much and too little, something that is difficult to make 100% perfect because of the ever-changing humidity indoors. A humidifier can be used in combination with misting to emulate a rain forest as best as possible, but don't worry if you have the problems of leaf tears and serrations. The leaves are still very practical, just not as 'pretty'.

The main concern I have found for good leaf production to remain, and the leaves not to fall, is adequate lighting. This plant is going to require more lighting than most plants. If lighting is not appropriate, leaves fall from here to kingdom come. Increasing light exposure to 15 hours timed artificial lighting has shown successful results. I recommend one 40-watt fluorescent GE Gro Tube and one 40-watt Solar spectrum aquarium light. It's buy far the cheapest fix (electricity-wise), however you may have more suitable lighting, or find other ways. Watch your plant closely and you will learn to accommodate it to the most suitable growing environment.

As I have mentioned before, insects are very attracted to Kratom plants. If you chose to put your plant outside, watch it closely. Within one day you may see significant damage to leaves. If this occurs, bring the plant inside immediately. The use of pesticides are strongly discouraged if you plan on using this plant for its medicinal qualities. You can put it in a windowsill and mist daily, but artificial lighting may be more suitable for faster growth. Indoor pests to be aware of are cats. If you share your home with a cat, consider putting the plant in a location that your frisky feline will not be tempted to disturb the plant. Cats have been known to eat the leaves of the plant. While this is not healthy for your plant, there are no known dangers to your cat. It is unlikely that a cat would eat enough of a this plant to experience noticeable side effects.

Kratom leaf with dammage caused by insects:




Kratom plant with dammage from being chewed on by a curious cat:




Watch your plant closely and you will learn to accommodate it to the most suitable growing environment. With lots of love and care your Kratom plant can eventually grow up to be a Kratom tree.



Edited by Frappy (06/13/05 05:05 PM)


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OfflineChemical_Bliss
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #4191016 - 05/18/05 03:07 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Excellent post. Before this I havent been able to find anything on growing kratom. You should consider submitting it to Erowid, I`m sure they would use it.


--------------------
'divine moments of truth, total and utter cosmic stuff...'
'be here now... i love everybody'


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OfflineFrappy
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Chemical_Bliss]
    #4191243 - 05/18/05 04:09 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Not a bad idea. They only have a few short sentences about making cuttings, but that don't have much of anything on Kratom plant care.


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OfflineToolTroll
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #4192271 - 05/18/05 07:56 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Great info! Thanks, this is very helpful. I don't have a kratom plant, but if I ever do...
:peace:


--------------------
"This whole idea that different is bad, that a change in consciousness is in itself harmful, is really one of the fundamental problems inherent in the drug war.” - Rick Doblin
my cactus collection
You vote with your dollars. Everyday. Vote responsibly.


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OfflineChemical_Bliss
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: ToolTroll]
    #4200374 - 05/20/05 05:45 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Frappy can you perhaps tell me how fast they grow outside of their natual climate? And also how long before one would have a large enough plant that could take a little defolinating? And do you know anything of the potentcy of indoor grown plants?

Do you know anything about the "Rifat" strain? How does it compare to others? Are all plants on the market today this strain?

Sorry for the questions but you seem to know what you are talking about :smile:


--------------------
'divine moments of truth, total and utter cosmic stuff...'
'be here now... i love everybody'


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OfflineFrappy
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Chemical_Bliss]
    #4201810 - 05/21/05 01:27 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

It is hard to say how fast the plants grow outside. Like all plants, this depends on growing conditions. Kratom thrives in Rainforest-like climates. Colder temperatures will stunt its growth and cause defoliation. Temperatures higher than 90 degrees Fahrenheit will also slow the growth of the plant. Speed of growth may vary from plant to plant. I would have to approximate that you would want your plant to be at the VERY LEAST several months old at least before harvesting leaves. The leaves are somewhat large, but not terribly abundant. Don't over pick your plant, but rather collect the few leaves it may drop during its younger stage and save them for later use when you have enough for a dose. Common sense will tell you when a plant can afford to lose a couple leaves, but the longer you wait to pick, the better.

The potency of kratom depends on a few different factors. Plants grown in cooler temperatures have been known to be less potent, so if you are planning on growing indoors and like your air conditioning ice cold, the mitragynine content may suffer. If you are growing outside, leaves are more potent from late summer through autumn and less potent in winter and spring. Plants grown in a greenhouse are also reportedly less potent. Older plants have been said to be more potent. This is another reason why it is best to wait as long as possible before harvesting your leaves. Leaves from older kratom plants or trees is the main difference between regular kratom and 'premium' kratom available from vendors online.

The Rifat strain is known for its high mitragynine content and red veins. The veins may not be obviously red in young plants. The high mitragynine content and the fact that it is easier to clone makes it much more popular with vendors than other strains. It is named after the Swiss biologist Claude Rifat. Another notable strain is 'Craig's Clone' was developed from Thai seed in 1999 which was never developed into a commercial strain because the plant was unstable. Tissues of the plant were collected and saved for long term preservation, but in 2001 the tissues became unrecoverable and this clone has been lost. There is also another strain called the 'Bumblebee' strain, which I have not been able to gather much information on. If you are planning on growing kratom the Rifat strain is going to be your best option, but most likely it will be your only option.


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OfflineChemical_Bliss
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #4209470 - 05/23/05 11:37 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for all the info frappy, you deffinately know your kratom.

One more thing, they like high humidity right? How high? Can they adapt to lower humidity? I cant imagine building a humidity tent for a tree.


--------------------
'divine moments of truth, total and utter cosmic stuff...'
'be here now... i love everybody'


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OfflineFrappy
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Chemical_Bliss]
    #4216817 - 05/25/05 01:39 AM (9 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Chemical_Bliss said:
Thanks for all the info frappy, you deffinately know your kratom.

One more thing, they like high humidity right? How high? Can they adapt to lower humidity? I cant imagine building a humidity tent for a tree.




Thanks for the kind words. :smile:

Kratom definitely likes high humidity.  Google tells me that Thailand's average humidity is between 66% and 82%.  The average high temperature is around 80 degrees F year round. 

Like I said, its difficult to emmulate a rain forest perfectly, but there are practical ways to accomplish this. An indoor plant can be sprayed with a fine mist a few times per day.  A humidifier set up on a timer could also be used to raise humidity.

I haven't yet worked with mature kratom trees, but I would imagine that once they are that well established they will be more hearty and could possibly tolerate less than optimal conditions better than a young plant.  If you live in an area with cold winter months or very low humidity your best option would probably be to grow it indoors, trimming as it outgrows the space provided for it.  This will also give you an opportunity to try your hand at making cuttings and getting them to root.


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OfflineChemical_Bliss
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #4218027 - 05/25/05 12:17 PM (9 years, 5 months ago)

I`m sure once they get well established they would be hard to kill....it is a treeafter all. We`ll see what happens, I have one on the way so you might be hearing from me about care when it doesnt look healthy :smile:.

Anyway thank for all your help and for giving me the confidence to go out and purchase one of these amazing plants.

5 shrooms to you!


--------------------
'divine moments of truth, total and utter cosmic stuff...'
'be here now... i love everybody'


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OfflineFrappy
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #4291803 - 06/13/05 05:10 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

Updated and added a few pics.


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OfflineGNIOM1498
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #4292117 - 06/13/05 06:03 PM (9 years, 4 months ago)

This info saved my plant now i got another one coming in the mail this week. Thanks


--------------------

----ALL MY POSTS ARE FICTIONAL-------


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Offlinewonderlandherbs
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #4607237 - 09/01/05 09:01 AM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I find it appalling that someone out there would consider it okay to blatantly plagiarize work that was not their own. I developed these care instructions, including the first pictures of the two serrated leaf edges. I don't really care who 'frappy' is, but I felt the need for the available community to be made know that this individual may not know how to answer many of your questions simply from complete inexperience with this species, and very likely others. I cannot believe that someone as 'frappy' would be so very bold as to use practically word-for-word quotes as well pictures and state that he couldn't find anything "out there" on the web for Kratom, so he "...figured [he'd] do a write up offering what information [he has] been able to learn and gather". Mind you on the word learn, and even better 'gather', which has apparently become synonymous with 'steal', as these words are not to be considered contrived from the mind of 'frappy' or anyone else for that matter save for the original writer, being I. While I may not be the biggest fish in the sea, I have always taken a great amount of pride in my personal honor and integrity. I find it quite sad that many of you out there have been sorely misled and deceived in your search for information, and unfortunate, too, that I was unable to discover this grave and blatant disregard for accreditation. I can provide willing proof of all the aforementioned should there be any such interest, as my goal has always been one based upon principle and good-faith. Shame should mar your countenance, frappy, and I pity you only for your cowardice.

Sincerely,
D. Locklear
wonderlandherbs Proprietor
www.wonderlandherbs.com
wonderlandherbs@yahoo.com


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OnlineStonehenge
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: wonderlandherbs]
    #4607968 - 09/01/05 01:52 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I don't think he meant any harm. But, it does show that it's good to give credit and tell where you got something.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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Offlinewonderlandherbs
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Stonehenge]
    #4608218 - 09/01/05 02:52 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

While I appreciate your comment, much 'harm' may be incurred simply for frappy is not the original commentator. I will post the following instructions simply so the community may view them. I have been an enthusiastic seller of a variety of ethnogenic flora for several years now on eBay?. Anyone who has ever dealt with me know I to be an above-average vendor who is dedicated to the plant, number one, and complete instruction. I have been sending the same instructions for Kratom care for over 4 years now. Perhaps frappy didn't mean harm, but I honestly find it very hard to believe seeing all the 'praise' he received for posting plagiarized work. I was never even asked, and frappy was a former client many months ago, so he knows well how I feel about such things. This is not even a mishap, for when "thanks" were being handed out, it would have been most honorable to do exactly what you said: Give credit where credit is due. I simply think it's disgraceful and the ethnogenic community, as small as it truly is, should be well aware that not everyone out there has the fortitude I aspire daily to promote. Compare my notes to those claimed as his, and you may ascertain for yourself questions such as:

Why is he referring how to cut the tape and not the box when these are supposed to be plant care?

Why would the plant need acclimation to sunlight if it has been exposed to solar radiation already?

And the big one that should really make you think:

If he has studied the growing characteristics to be so very knowledgeable of Kratom, why is frappy so vague in horticulture of this specific species OUTSIDE?

None of these questions are intended for true answer, save from frappy, who has yet to admit his intention or fault. I just find it ironic that someone who has had so very much to say beforehand is mute in waiting, stage left, when confronted with provable contradiction.

Save these instructions. You WILL need them for arrival.

Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom

Please familiarize yourself with these instructions thoroughly; Kratom
is not the easiest plant to accommodate.
Mist Plant Upon Arrival/Daily
Misting is an Excellent Deterrent against many parasites that may enter
your home via clothing and other articles.

Your new plant will thrive, given the proper care and attention. I have
personally found the following guidelines to be helpful when first
encountering this great specimen:

Carefully remove plant from box, minding use of sharp instruments,

CUT THE TAPE, NOT THE BOX...

...in a warmer area, free from drafts to avoid dehydration.
Carefully remove twist-ties or rubber bands.
Once ties are removed, plastic sleeve should be easily taken off.
Remove and discard newsprint.
Your plant may or may not be noticeably wilted. This is to be expected
from the shock of transport. Do not be alarmed if it looks a little 'sad'.
Keep plant away from direct artificial or natural light for at least a
day. A dimly lit room, such as the counter or table top in front of
drawn shades or blinds is considered indirect lighting. It needs to
adjust to the new environment.

Please note: This plant will need acclimation to direct sunlight. You
may acclimate by gradually increasing the amount of daily solar exposure
2 hours at a time for one week. Any greater exposure to direct sunlight
may risk significant sunburn.

Water generously, but do not allow to stand in water for more than 2-3
hours per day. The plant should 'perk' up within a few hours. Give
another drink if needed after being revived.

The Kratom tree is a very interesting species that will require VERY
well-drained soil. I highly recommend Miracle-Gro potting mix as an
excellent source of nutrients for proper leaf production and plant
stability. Kratom requires an ample amount of lighting that is very
bright, however not harsh sun. If adequate lighting is not maintained
consistently, leaf drop will occur quite severely until the plant can
use what light is available. You may find the use of fluorescent
lighting to be amicable and ultimately will be easier to control during
the shorter winter months. Consider the plant's native habit, Thailand
and Africa, where the tropical zones are moist and warm and days are
long. Should artificial lighting be impractical for your needs, 4-5
hours of early morning sun should be sufficient.
The temperature that you may find comfortable will ultimately make
your new plant comfortable, although the plant loves plenty of
humidity and higher temps. Much lower than 50 degrees F and the plant
will stop growing pretty much altogether; remaining dormant until warmer
temperatures are maintained all the while, dropping nearly every leaf.
Please understand this plant is tropical in nature and will not survive
freezing temperatures.
You should want to water when the very top of soil becomes slightly
dry in appearance or to touch. Lack of sufficient water will result in
smaller stunted leaves and much slower growth. Misting once or twice
daily will help alleviate stress of a drier climate as well help prevent
many opportunities for pests which often prefer the dry undersides and
joints of plants in general.
You may find the following websites helpful in troubleshooting and
general informative facts about this species. Above all else, please
remember to RESPECT your plant. It cannot be allowed to just sit in some
window and forget about it. Try to avoid immediate transplant for at
least a week or so. Provided you adhere to the instructions, you should
have excellent results.

SITES REMOVED FOR DISCRETION OF WEBMASTERS.

ASK FRAPPY, PERHAPS HE SAVED THEM AS WELL.


The following are more detailed notes and photos for tips:

You will note the Kratom is a tender-shooted plant when it first sends
forth. Caution not to be thrown casually as you may break it easily with
too many touches. The shoots harden off within 3-4 days time and become
less pliable. Unfortunately, there are not many websites that provide
care information on the Kratom. So very few people actually have the
specimens to practice with, so I will give you the knowledge I have
acquired.

Prefers fairly damp, VERY well-drained potting soil. I use ONLY
miracle-gro potting mix for the Kratom. No moss, no vermiculite, nothing
but the potting mix.

Root growth, again, is rather slow, allowing you to keep the plant
potted longer.

If you do not keep the soil moistened, the leaves will still continue to
grow, however, they seem to have a slightly sticky resin that keeps them
clasped together before they are actually released from the xylem
meristem tissue. The higher the relative moisture the plant is exposed
to, the less viscous the sticky resin is; which in turn, allows the
mirrored leaves to easily separate from each other. If the moisture
content drops even a little, the resin becomes more sticky and the
leaflets hold together more tightly. The leaves still emerge, but the
stickiness tends to tear the edges slightly like this:

http://wonderlandherbs.com/careinstructions/kratomphotos/kratomtear.JPG
http://wonderlandherbs.com/careinstructions/kratomphotos/kratomtear1.JPG

If the moisture content is balanced the leaves will open freely and
appear with no tears or serration's like so:

http://wonderlandherbs.com/careinstructions/kratomphotos/kratomokay.JPG

The hard part is just getting the balance between too much and too
little, something that even I cannot make 100% perfect because of the
ever-changing humidity in the house. I use a humidifier and mist, but I
just can't emulate a rain forest perfectly, so don't be down if you have
the same thing happen. The leaves are still very practical, just not as
'pretty'.

The main concern I have found for good leaf production to remain,
and the leaves not to fall, is adequate lighting. This plant is going to
require more lighting than perhaps anything you may grow. If lighting is
not appropriate, leaves fall from here to kingdom come. When I first
bought my provider plant, it lost every leaf, save 6. It had 17 upon
arrival, so you can imagine my horror. I figured it must be the light
and increased the amount of exposure to 15 hours timed artificial
lighting, 40-watt fluorescent Gro tube; GE, qty @1, and 40-watt Solar
spectrum aquarium light, qty @ 1. You may have more suitable lighting,
or find other ways. I just found what worked well for me, so I am not
going to try anything else. It's buy far the cheapest fix
(electricity-wise).

So here they are, as they have been for nearly 4 years. I guess I just have to come out and say, "The above work was written for the enthusuastic horticulturalists of species Mitragyna speciosa. It may not be copied, reproduced, photographed, or otherwise communicated in form verbatim without express and written permission from the original author, D. Locklear, wonderlandherbs Proprietor."

Now, why should that even need explaining. This was something we learned in gradeschool, folks.

If you want to know, how I grow,
then all of you can ask me.
But don't be alarmed, and think 'none harmed',
when someone wants to 'mask' me.

D. Locklear
wonderlandherbs Proprietor
www.wonderlandherbs.com
wonderlandherbs@yahoo.com


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Offlinebluelou
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: wonderlandherbs]
    #4608422 - 09/01/05 03:25 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

Thanks MUCH!!!

Do you have plants ready?an how much a kratom plant!


--------------------
Have you tried my(black kow) pile style tek outdoors!!!!!!!!


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Offlinewonderlandherbs
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Registered: 09/01/05
Posts: 9
Loc: NC, USA
Last seen: 8 years, 1 month
Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: bluelou]
    #4608466 - 09/01/05 03:34 PM (9 years, 2 months ago)

I have several plants ready for shipping. Do you have an offer? I negotiate very well instead of naming direct prices. As I have always said, it's not so very much about money, because it really can grow on trees. I know that there remain vendors out there who are gouging the market in ridiculous ways. Please email me personally with your expectations/ desires and perhaps we can work on an agreeable transaction. You will never encounter another so as myself. Examples of my work may be found here, which is a current listing on eBay?:

http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsofindtypeZ1...fsooZ1QQfrppZ50

I never send plants sight-unseen, and no 'grab-bagging'. They are guaranteed LIVE DELIVERY no matter where they are ultimately sent, regardless of temperature or climate. I've been doing this awhile, so I do know what I'm talking about. I look forward to your reply.

Sincerely,
D. Locklear
wonderlandherbs Proprietor
www.wonderlandherbs.com
wonderlandherbs@yahoo.com


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OfflineFrappy
Strange

Registered: 09/17/04
Posts: 1,280
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 8 years, 20 days
Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: wonderlandherbs]
    #4611347 - 09/02/05 03:34 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

You seem awfully upset that you didn't get the praise and admiration from a community that you didn't even belong to up until about 12 hours ago, but now that you're here, please allow me to offer you a big welcome and give you credit for the information I have presented in my post, but first please allow me to explain myself.

I fully admit that much of my post, was directly copied and pasted from your instructions, however, I made no profit from posting it. My intentions were to share this information with the shroomery community which I have grown to love. This is the Internet where information on any subject is, or rather should be, free. When I find information that I think may be useful to the shroomery community I feel that it is important to share it with them. Usually when I find useful information on the Internet I will post the website address of the location I found it, however you do not make this information available online unless someone has purchased something from you, therefore there is no web page with care instructions to link to.

Posting your vending website as a place to purchase kratom plants online would have been a way to give you some sort of credit. Unfortunately I can't do that because it would be against the forum rules. Since www.iamshaman.com is a paying shroomery sponsor who sells live kratom plants, it would have been wrong of me to post you or your website as a source. Some of the rules concerning posting sources of other vendors can be found here:

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/2297863/an/0/page/0

You have already blatantly violated them, but that's not of my concern. That's up to the moderators and the sponsors. You're new and probably didn't know the rules yet.

When I originally emailed you asking for information on kratom plant care so that I could know what to expect and how to prepare for the plants arrival, you refused to give me any useful information until you had my money in your hands. Its understandable that you want to protect your business, since withholding this information from the Internet puts more money in your pocket. When people cannot properly care for their own plants, and have to buy a new plant from a limited selection of vendors it becomes a favorable situation for you. With fewer people who know how to care for and propagate these plants, the better off you are, but plants are living things and deserve proper care. If withholding the information is an intended part of your business ethics, I would have to disagree with them wholeheartedly.

If the true center of your animosity towards me is actually because you're upset that I didn't mention your name in the post, then I apologize. At the time I felt that citations and bibliographies in a simple forum post would be unnecessary and make it more difficult to read. If citing D. Locklear in the post would make you feel better I can do that, but before you were a member of this forum it wouldn't have made much of a difference since they wouldn't have known the name anyway.


And to answer your questions,

Quote:

wonderlandherbs said:Why is he referring how to cut the tape and not the box when these are supposed to be plant care?




Because most members of shroomery do not live in areas where kratom grows naturally. I would say that its safe to assume that they are receiving a plant in the mail from a trade or a vendor. The post office doesn't mail plants that aren't in boxes.


Quote:

wonderlandherbs said:Why would the plant need acclimation to sunlight if it has been exposed to solar radiation already?




With the exception of mjshroomer I doubt the members are going to be getting live plants by walking around Thailand. They will be getting their plants in the mail. In a box.


Quote:

wonderlandherbs said:If he has studied the growing characteristics to be so very knowledgeable of Kratom, why is frappy so vague in horticulture of this specific species OUTSIDE?




I never claimed that I studied the specific growing characteristics of the plant. I only said that I am offering the information that I have. I never claimed to be a professional, but I am certainly more experienced than someone with no experience at all. If I can help another member of shroomery I will do whatever I can.


Edited by Frappy (09/02/05 04:27 AM)


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #4611561 - 09/02/05 05:30 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Frappy, your response to Locklear's protest is wholly inappropriate. Copyright does have a place in our society, overzealous intellectual property rights abuse by corporations nonwithstanding. For copyright violation, there are extenuating circumstances, and there are legally defined criteria for "fair use", which haven't been met here. But violating copyright and arrogating the credit to yourself is plain immoral. Not only have you shown disregard to the time, effort and legal and moral rights of others, you blatantly repudiate contrition, and even go so far as to asperse imputations of immorality upon your accuser. Sharing information is always welcome - you could have researched the subject yourself and epitomize the points of value. That would have been a much appreciated contribution.

Now, one other issue of written language abuse:

Quote:

wonderlandherbs: ethnogenic flora ... ethnogenic community




There's even a www.ethnogen.com. I assume it's a site for selling virile heterosexuals.


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Offlinewonderlandherbs
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: stvip]
    #4611721 - 09/02/05 09:51 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

I doubt it could have been said more eloquently. Undeniably well-written, and certainly, well-received. Most-gracious am I of your observation.


--------------------
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wonderlandherbs Proprietor
www.wonderlandherbs.com


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Offlinewonderlandherbs
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #4611862 - 09/02/05 11:58 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Don't make the mistake that I am upset about potential loss of profit. Don't confuse the situation and make it any more agreeable for yourself; you've already done plenty to place yourself higher than those who view you. The issue is quite clear. You've admitted your fault and that is at least a beginning.

Quote:

Frappy said:

When I originally emailed you asking for information on kratom plant care so that I could know what to expect and how to prepare for the plants arrival, you refused to give me any useful information until you had my money in your hands.




If you want to make this about money then you should have known what you were doing to be wrong upon your own reflection of the above. You speculated that I didn't say all because I haven't received your part of the arrangement, so how can you have the audacity to assume it's okay to plagiarize my work?

I never refused you anything. I informed you, as with all prospective patrons, that I will send you "prolific and detailed instructions with pictures to help prevent a particular growing characteristic of the species upon arrival of payment [for the species in question]." I do not, and should not, feel obligated to promise anyone the wealth of knowledge I have personally educated myself upon simply because they said, "...the check's in the mail." This is a balance of exchange. I give a little, and you give a little. I don't hand you the world on a platter simply because you are 'curious'. All curiosity is completely quenched once the contractual sale is solidified via full payment. You should know this. If you want to make this about money then you should have known what you were doing to be wrong upon your own reflection of the above. This was never about 'paying for care instructions'. Although the instructions I formulated are part of the package (I don't ever recall purchasing a plant at a nursery without some sort of care placard) I don't feel the need to spell out for every person who emails me such thorough and personal insight. I am not concerned about competition, which certainly makes things more interesting. I welcome those that can and will compete with me. If you can personally do better than me, then by all means...do it, become rich, successful, and prosperous and cure cancer for all I care, but you will never have to be concerned that I will steal your intellectual property and display it as my own.

Quote:

Frappy said: If citing D. Locklear in the post would make you feel better I can do that, but before you were a member of this forum it wouldn't have made much of a difference since they wouldn't have known the name anyway.




You only felt this would make no difference before I stumbled upon your act. Nobody said anything about mentioning my name. Nobody said anything about divulging my internet site, as small it may be. Of course no one may know who or what I am. My site was never intended to purchase from. It has been more of an 'about me' site than anything. You can't place orders, and you can't send me money, however, if you want to know more...then what do you do? You contact me, we pose questions, and perhaps we come to an agreement for you to have something that I offer. I have conducted business for trade of other species, for trade of information, or the truly grand reward of encountering those as myself that genuinely care for the continued horticulture of a particular species. There are 'true' vendors out there that blow me out of the water daily. I will never be able to compete in product availability due solely to the numbers I limit myself to. But what does that mean? That means the plant that you MAY receive from me, in whatever fashion, shall certainly be of the highest caliber and quality. I have the time to invest one-on-one care because I enjoy my passion. You have no right to believe in your all-encompassing limitation of free-enterprise by assuming that since you purchased a plant that came with detailed notes, you also had full latitude to freely claim yourself as the rightful owner of such notes.

Quote:

Frappy said:I never claimed that I studied the specific growing characteristics of the plant. I only said that I am offering the information that I have.




The problem is you never refuted the obvious and ongoing assumption that those who viewed...

Quote:

Frappy said:I figured I'd do a write up offering what information I have been able to learn and gather.




...would inherently assume you 'learned' from your personal experience. You further fed the assumption in later replies that directly refer to the original plagiarism...

Quote:

Frappy said:Like I said, its difficult to emmulate a rain forest perfectly, but there are practical ways to accomplish this.




..and when acknowledged,...

Quote:

Chemical_Bliss said Thanks for all the info frappy, you deffinately know your kratom.




...don't you think it would have been appropriate to simply say, "Well , I'm glad the information was practical to you, however, I shouldn't allow myself the entire credit. If you would like to know more about the person who has actually studied this species, and supplied me with the available information, email me, or maybe I can contact him to see if he minds."

When it's all said and done, my friend, you are simply dead wrong...

DEAD WRONG.

You have proven only that you have the true gift of ambiguity in it's most vile form. You are a chameleon that changes to suit its colorful environment to save only itself. You have proven that many of your words are unmistakeably incredible, having no foundation of true discovery, and that you are ultimately a liar, as well a thief who steals even when no financial reward remained apparent, which is truly quite sad, for what else have you said that we are to believe? Who is next on your itinerary of 'stolen works'?

You, and those like you, are the sole reason I choose to have discretion around what I chance to offer. Your lackadaisical prospective allows you to easily dismiss your moral self-degradation as an invisible 'flaw'; but to only yourself. I've said it before, and I will say it again: The endogenic/ entheogenic community is small. There may be hundreds, and there may be thousands of us, but we shall in no manner ever be able to compare to the numbers, say, of computer programmers out there. There are only select individuals that do what we do. As such, it would seem much more beneficial to, each and all, that some degree of integrity will keep us together, instead of hiding behind the investment of others. Nobody has to spend a dime to invest any amount of time, and I gravely pity you, for you do not even see this. I'm sorry your arrogance has blinded you so completely that you can only see yourself through those who have named your game. My name is all I have ever been given freely, my education is something pursued on a daily level, and my mission will never be undermined. You may slow my mission through veiled contradiction, and you may make me mute from acquiring desired information, but you will never have that, and only that, which was allowed to only me: a name. Through a name, I've developed reputation, reputation through word-of-mouth, but never before now, taken. I only wonder that if, in due time, should your name remain as sour in the mouths of others as so it does mine. If so, thank only yourself, 'cause karma...well, She's mightier than even the best of reps.


--------------------
D. Locklear
wonderlandherbs Proprietor
www.wonderlandherbs.com


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: wonderlandherbs]
    #4618730 - 09/04/05 07:13 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

Kratom is viable by seed for only a few weeks




I wonder whether this is accurate. I have seen this mentioned many times, but never with a reference. Several sources, seeming to originate from a German importer, are now offering Mitragyna speciosa seeds, and they seem knowledgeable enough to aver that they are not a different species from the genus, such as Mitragyna parviflora. Either it's a widespread intentional scam (not misidentification), or a legitimate offer. They claim germination rates aren't very high, but are acceptable.


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Offlinewonderlandherbs
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: stvip]
    #4621896 - 09/05/05 10:26 AM (9 years, 1 month ago)

I, too, have been wondering about the legitimacy of the newly-available seeds. I have been working fairly close with a reliable source who has since procured some of the same seeds in question. This individual was, too, informed that the seeds must be quite fresh to maintain the best viability. I was informed that I would be receiving seeds for Mitragyna speciosa from this same source, and that he has been successful at germinating a few of those planted already. I don't really like to speculate whether there remains truth of rumor at this point. I personally have never seen a Kratom seed; I do not force my personal collection to flower, timers are key at this point in the year, and nor have I ever seen a plant to be grown from seed, though many a claim I have seen posted, of course without pictures.

Just as there remains so very much controversy between what is better: White-veined, or red-veined, "strains". While all the plants I have ever produced through cloning have had white veins, I am receiving a great amount of mail in regards to potency differences. Many are saying "they have heard [this] & [that], [pros] & [cons]..." for both claimed "strains". I'm wondering if this is all just a bunch of hype, for I, too, have yet to see a specimen of Mitragyna speciosa that consistently produces leaves of the same structure that always have red veins. I say consistently for I have been experimenting with the clones I produce from time to time. I noticed awhile back that after some initial cuts have began to produce roots, the entire cut has a blushed shade of 'red'. Usually the red is more noticeable on the crown, with the very newest leaves having an almost pink appearance. As the cutting matures and develops the roots to support itself, this reddish hue fades, however, the leaves that were once 'blushed', though they 'green' up within a very short period, their veins continue to remain red.

Kratom, while a tropical evergreen, does defoliate itself. Leaves become older as the plant's height increases, so it would be more rare than not to have a significantly older specimen that has kept all it's original leaves. Usually within a week or so of being able to survive alone in soil, the new cutting produces its first set of leaves which are neither pink, red, or any color other than vivid glorious green, and all veins thereafter are white.

I know that many green plants may present reddish tones/ hues from a nitrogen deficiency. I'm wondering if this is what is happening to individuals who have Kratom specimens. The plant really enjoys a good level of nutrition, and this has to be supplied either organically (compost, manure, 'organic teas', fish emulsions) or chemically (Good ol' Miracle-Gro?, 10-10-10, Schultz?, etc.) If the same ones out there promoting the red-veined claimed "strain" are not regularly fertilizing their specimens, it seems only logical that they may indeed be growing Kratom that produces 'red veins' simply because of lower level of nitrogen, which thus expresses itself in the plant's physical presentation.

I just think it's difficult to determine the legitimacy of many claims associated with any entheogen until you actually can posses a specimen or its seed and test for yourself. I am anxious to receive these newly available seeds, but it many be several weeks before the plants are mature enough to test. I personally do not even offer a plant as having entheogenic qualities until it, or it's constituents, have at least passed through my capillaries and expressed their 'effects'. Even the most dangerous specimens, i.e. <i>Atropa belladonna</i> are not exempt to the personal test, all of course with adequate supervision/ emergency contact. And a gentle reminder to the reader:

Please never experiment casually with members of the Nightshade family. They are not an easy 'trip' or a quick 'high'. These plants can, and have, proved fatal. Time and self-education on as many resources you can find shall prove most beneficial, and likely keep the enthusiastically curious from an unfortunate mishap.


--------------------
D. Locklear
wonderlandherbs Proprietor
www.wonderlandherbs.com


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Offlinestvip
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: wonderlandherbs]
    #4659537 - 09/14/05 01:46 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

nor have I ever seen a plant to be grown from seed




Are M. speciosa plantations in Bali, Indonesia and Thailand propagated by seeds or cloning?

Unfortunately, due to my location, it seems I will have to rely on seeds for obtaining a live plant. I have recently ordered 10, planted a few days ago. Results are anxiously awaited - however:

Quote:

it many be several weeks before the plants are mature enough to test.




While a false positive is highly unlikely, a false negative may very well occur if only several weeks are allowed to pass. Many alkaloid bearing perennials require a year, sometimes more, for appreciable levels to be present. Plants are generally considered mature once they have flowered.

I am not at all familiar with the vein colour debate. However, I find the hypothesis of nitrogen deficiency as the causative factor for red veins unlikely, as such an acute state would severely stunt the entire plant (the red pigmentation of beta-carotenes becomes visible once chlorophyl is depleted, which is a state of crisis), and one would surmise - especially the production of alkaloids. However, a survey of usage practices in Thailand reveals no preference to either type.

As for the Solanaceae - our Bella Donna is a femme fatale. I would never expose myself to anticholinergics. Intuitively, I'd say reduction in cholinergic transmission is a reduction of our humanity. Scopolamine is used to create models of dementia syndromes in animals. In large doses it produces permanent brain lesions with the accompanying behavioural/cognitive deficits. Not fun, but neither useful. Though it is interesting that Datura sp were used by various Native Americans, often in combination with other psychoactive substances (perhaps the combination in Chimora is reminiscient of the contemporary use of Dramamine to combat nausea).


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Offlinepod3
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- [Re: stvip]
    #4674481 - 09/17/05 05:22 PM (9 years, 1 month ago)

-


Edited by pod3 (10/26/06 12:59 PM)


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Offlinesydeq
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: pod3]
    #5323442 - 02/21/06 12:11 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

is the kratum leaves bad for cats?


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OfflineFrappy
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: pod3]
    #5325426 - 02/21/06 09:08 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pod3 said:
I wonder if anyone knows if this will grow outside in southern California, where it usually doesn't freeze?

Thanks.




Kratom does not do well in low humidity, nor does it do well in temperatures at or below the 50's F. Without optimal conditions it will drop leaves until more favorable conditions return.


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OfflineFrappy
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: sydeq]
    #5325461 - 02/21/06 09:14 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

sydeq said:
is the kratum leaves bad for cats?




My cat munched on a few leaves and nothing happened. I'm not saying that you should start feeding kratom to cats tho.


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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #5328857 - 02/22/06 08:02 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

Frapppy how low of humidity will Kratom tolerate?

Do you think leaf misting could help in areas of low humidity?


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OfflineFrappy
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: rawtoxic]
    #5329174 - 02/22/06 09:56 PM (8 years, 8 months ago)

I haven't recorded exact humidity levels that lead to problems. I would have to estimate that humidity levels under 70% would cause defoliation, however higher humidity levels are optimal. Kratom thrives in its native rainforrest climate. 90% or higher would be great.

I would like to experiment with growing kratom inside a martha designed for mushroom production. The high humidity levels needed for mushrooms should compliment the conditions necessary for growing kratom, however additional light will most likely be needed.

Leaf misting will help in areas of low humidity, however it is advisable to mist multiple times throughout the day since misting is merely a temporary solution for low humidity levels.


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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #5738073 - 06/11/06 03:57 PM (8 years, 4 months ago)

i got a kratom plant in the mail about a week ago it looks perky but the tips of the leaves are browning do you know what might be causing it ?


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OfflineGrim7
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Frappy]
    #14765259 - 07/14/11 12:20 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

awesome info man. Ive been trying to find a decent source of info for growing kratom for ages and have found lots of contradicting information... you summed up everything i needed to know thanks for your help :grin:


--------------------
If it weren't for the threat of death, we wouldn't live at all..

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OfflinetheMallacht
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Grim7]
    #14766221 - 07/14/11 04:53 AM (3 years, 3 months ago)

:facepalm: Why has there been so much of this lately?

Dude, 5 year old thread... Fact is most of the members that participated in this thread haven't even been active members for a long time.

Look under 'Frappy' the Original Poster's name "Last seen: 4 years, 8 months"

Please don't ignore the warning when it says "Warning, you are about to bump a 4 year old thread, only proceed if you have relevant information to add" - or something like that.

Read the rules


--------------------
"If a law is unjust, a man is not only right to disobey it, he is obligated to do so." - Thomas Jefferson

---Mallacht Talks Insects and Insecticides in Indoor Grow Environments --- Mallacht Talks Cloning ---
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: theMallacht]
    #15375418 - 11/15/11 08:27 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Probably because it is a thread with great information and it deserves to be reviewed by new members


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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: KillerPicklez]
    #15376052 - 11/15/11 09:59 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Probably because it is a thread with great information and it deserves to be reviewed by new members




That's what the "Search our Forums" hyperlink is for.

Though you may not agree with them, the rules are there for a reason.

And why bump a four month old post if you, yourself, are not going to add any additional content? :shrug:


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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: Ieponumos]
    #15376201 - 11/15/11 10:17 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

I dont need a lecture on how to use the forums, I have been here for going on 7 years.

I bumped the thread in hopes that someone had information they could share with me, as this is a topic that I am interested in.


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OfflineWorld Seed SupplyV
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: KillerPicklez]
    #15377426 - 11/16/11 03:06 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Check my journal. There's a guide on growing kratom indoors that you might enjoy. 

And now that you bring this up, I actually do have something to add to the vein color debate.  I've seen vendors identifying types of kratom in terms of their vein color.  For example, the bumblebee is often said to have extremely red veins.  But the truth is that vein color changes, as wonderlandherbs originally noticed.  I have seen this thread many times, but I never noticed that part. I have discussed this quite a bit before with different people.  Where WH suspected it was about nutrient deficiency, I believe it is actually based on lighting.  I had cuttings given to me that were grown under HPS with red veins. They were being cared for very well and were in good soil, so nutrient deficiency is highly unlikely.  I made cuttings that I sent off to a friend.  We were both experimenting with two types of lighting, fluorescent lights and the reveal 100 full spectrum bulbs.  We both had a good number of different cuttings going of different strains.  In all cases, in two separate locations, we noticed that all the red veins eventually became white.  The only real common factor was that we were using less light. And it does seem to make sense that light would have an effect on pigmentation.

The only other factor that seems to be involved is that seed-grown-plants, in my experience, tend to have very red veins. So I think plant age may also have some correlation to pigmentation. It would also make sense that others such as the bumblebee might have originally been characterized as having very red veins. Bumblebee was originally a seed-grown strain that was probably very red when it was first grown. If the grower was not aware of the kratom's tendency for pigment change, he may very well have been struck by what seemed to be the strain's unusual characteristic.  And therefore, that might be how the bumblebee got a reputation for red veins.  (Even though they can turn white) Now don't jump to thinking it is right to say that red veins mean the plant is young, and older plants are white-veined.  It's just an observation I have noticed.  I'd really need to study seeds with a variety of different genetics to see how this plays out. 

I've been meaning to bring this discussion up for a while, so I guess it worked out that you bumped and old thread this time KP.  But I'm not advocating breaking the rules :wink:


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Offlinevelcroshaman
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #15378188 - 11/16/11 10:04 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

That's interesting about the lighting having an effect on the vein color. I've noticed this phenomenon with other plants as well. That's not the only thing that has an effect on the color though. While nutrient deficiency itself might or might not have an effect, the availability of certain pigments in the soil can affect the vein color.

Working with an unrelated plant, I've been able to change the leaf and calyx color. The uptake by the plant of carotenoids caused changes to both, from a golden color to a yellowish-orange color as the chlorophyll broke down near the end of the vegetative part of the plants' life cycle.

I don't currently have any Kratom, so I can't experiment with this, but maybe it's something for someone to look into.


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:mushroom2:Current Grows:mushroom2:
:1up: Mimosa hostilis

:mushroom2: Give me stuff I want for stuff you want :mushroom2:


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: velcroshaman]
    #15382162 - 11/17/11 02:22 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

I believe, and i may be wrong, that the red pigmentation is a little like roses, in new growth.  Most kratom have red veins, some totally red leaves in new growth.  IN fact other species of Mitragyna do as well.  I have noticed on my trees that with age they eventually loose the red.  but not always.  A single plant can easily produce super red veins and green veins and almost white veins, certainly not a varietal characteristic.

but for people selling the herb it may still be useful as there dos seem to be some difference in the effects.  Also it is known in thailand that the older leaves are better and the new growth is pretty weak.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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OfflineWorld Seed SupplyV
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: kadakuda]
    #15382463 - 11/17/11 05:08 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Yes, for leaf it makes sense. That's why you tend to find both colors for each location.  But I kinda thought more people should be aware that it's not a strain characteristic.


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Offlinekadakuda
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: World Seed Supply]
    #15382807 - 11/17/11 08:43 AM (2 years, 11 months ago)

ya for sure, good looking out.  I don't find many kratom vendors online really know much about the actual plant.  they just resell it.


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The seeds you won't sow are the plants you dont grow.


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InvisibleKillerPicklez
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: kadakuda]
    #15393021 - 11/19/11 01:52 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

[Mod Edit: Vendor/Source discussion good or bad is not allowed as per the EG forum rules. But please ask this question in the Sponsors' Forum and I'm sure you'll receive a response quickly.]


Edited by naum (11/19/11 09:28 PM)


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InvisibleIeponumos
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Re: Mitragyna speciosa; Kratom Plant Care Instructions [Re: KillerPicklez]
    #15393135 - 11/19/11 02:27 PM (2 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

KillerPicklez said:
Rthrth or two?




Trade talk is frowned upon. Don't be surprised if you get a warning. But look for a :pm:

EDIT: you don't accept private messages? I guess you are shit out of luck since I don't want to receive an infraction.

I will say they're hiding in plain sight (as in a certain shroomery sponsored vendor)


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]


Edited by Ieponumos (11/19/11 02:33 PM)


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