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faslimy said:
capitalism = an idea(l)

capitalism + humans = evil

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BrAiN said:
so why single out capitalism so much

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BrAiN said:

capitalism = darwinism.... survival of the fittest


capitalism = the course of nature as it has always been... the stronger lions of the pack surviving over the weaker.... the plants with stronger roots living because they can take in mor nutrients, etc etc etc etc...

that's the way science made the world... capitalist...

I'm not saying that's good or bad. I'm just saying capitalism is just kinda gowing with the way nature has always been... selective... it's just the way it's been done for billions of years

kinda makes sense eh?

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juende said:
capitalism is the building off of free labour. when someone can make profit without paying for labour [fully] then that is capitalism. making the most.

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its not that some people are stronger or more fit or whatever, it that they are being expoited for the work and labour that they do produce.

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freedom?? on what terms.

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i hate when i hear ppl going on about "oh capitalism isn't all that bad" because until you understand all the consequences and what it truly is you will remain ignorant of the true 'nature' of capitalism.

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faslimy said:
the rich get rich from the poor being poor, and as a result the rich have more power

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relativexistance said:
well in a sense it is. a stronger person can make a weaker one do the work.

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z@z.com said:

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relativexistance said:
well in a sense it is. a stronger person can make a weaker one do the work.

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In Capitalism no one can force another to do something against their will so how exactly does this work?

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juende said:
capitalism is the building off of free labour. when someone can make profit without paying for labour [fully] then that is capitalism. making the most.

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its not that some people are stronger or more fit or whatever, it that they are being expoited for the work and labour that they do produce. freedom?? on what terms.

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i hate when i hear ppl going on about "oh capitalism isn't all that bad" because until you understand all the consequences and what it truly is you will remain ignorant of the true 'nature' of capitalism.

-jue

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juende said:
whoa. really. so yer telling me that one person/group cannot force another to do something against their will. hmmmm. really. have you been outside you house..ever. or read anything. cuz maybe i'm reading this wrong.
think. think. think. and then think again before you write something.

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z@z.com said:

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juende said:
capitalism is the building off of free labour. when someone can make profit without paying for labour [fully] then that is capitalism. making the most.

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How do you feel we should determine what labor is worth? And how are people not "fully" paid for their labor?
uh. if you are not being paid or recognized for the work you do or your place [or role in this capitalistic society] as awhole class or race or gender and someone else is benefiting from it than that work that person has done is worth something.

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its not that some people are stronger or more fit or whatever, it that they are being expoited for the work and labour that they do produce.

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How is anyone exploited? Are they forced to take certain jobs?
its not taking certain jobs. as if it were as simple as if little bob and jane could just 'work harder and get a better job'

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freedom?? on what terms.

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How do you define freedom and how exactly does capitalism conflict with it? Really. I'm very curious.
all our rights have little fine print to it

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i hate when i hear ppl going on about "oh capitalism isn't all that bad" because until you understand all the consequences and what it truly is you will remain ignorant of the true 'nature' of capitalism.

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Capitalism sucks, but I challenge you to show me a better system.

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Paradigm said:

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juende said:
whoa. really. so yer telling me that one person/group cannot force another to do something against their will. hmmmm. really. have you been outside you house..ever. or read anything. cuz maybe i'm reading this wrong.
think. think. think. and then think again before you write something.

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You know, instead of just acting arrogant and condescending, you could try to explain to someone why they are wrong. Or can you?

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Paradigm said:

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juende said:
I'm afraid it is you who is ignorant of the true nature of capitalism.

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but i guess it depends on which view you take. the perosn who is able to start up their own business, and to have workers to pay. or the ppl who are effected by it. i think we are looking at it from two different perspectives. you seem to be focusing on individaul situations. i'm trying to expose the larger picture.

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juende said:
i'm not trying to be condescending. but to say that ppl cannot be forced to do something against their will...i mean c'mon, do i really need to explain it. do i have to go into things like rape,sweatshops, domestic voilence, slavery, poverty etc... think. yes i think that we should think before saying shit like "no one is forced against their will". sorry if that offends you.

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juende said:
uh. if you are not being paid or recognized for the work you do or your place [or role in this capitalistic society] as awhole class or race or gender and someone else is benefiting from it than that work that person has done is worth something.

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its not taking certain jobs. as if it were as simple as if little bob and jane could just 'work harder and get a better job'

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all our rights have little fine print to it

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oh that is such a common response. so many ppl i've talked to will after a while cop out and say well if this sucks show me something better. that is not how things work. sure lets just toss out what we have now and start over. i'll make sumthing up real quick,

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juende said:

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z@z.com said:

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relativexistance said:
well in a sense it is. a stronger person can make a weaker one do the work.

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In Capitalism no one can force another to do something against their will so how exactly does this work?

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whoa. really. so yer telling me that one person/group cannot force another to do something against their will. hmmmm. really. have you been outside you house..ever. or read anything. cuz maybe i'm reading this wrong.
think. think. think. and then think again before you write something.

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juende said:
oh that is such a common response. so many ppl i've talked to will after a while cop out and say well if this sucks show me something better. that is not how things work. sure lets just toss out what we have now and start over. i'll make sumthing up real quick,

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Paradigm said:

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juende said:
i'm not trying to be condescending. but to say that ppl cannot be forced to do something against their will...i mean c'mon, do i really need to explain it. do i have to go into things like rape,sweatshops, domestic voilence, slavery, poverty etc... think. yes i think that we should think before saying shit like "no one is forced against their will". sorry if that offends you.

---

Actually, let's go ahead and discuss those things you brought up. First of all, what does rape have to do with capitalism? Or slavery, for that matter? As for sweatshops, what is a sweatshop, anyway? The term gets thrown around all the time by people to describe working in conditions that they personally consider unacceptable. But it is not for you to decide what conditions are acceptable for those workers. That is for them to decide. They may not like working there, but they are better off for it, or else they would not have chosen to work there. As for poverty, since capitalism is the system under which economies tend to perform best, I would say it's a rather good antidote to poverty. Just because you have been conditioned to associate capitalism with all these evils you speak of does not mean it is self-apparent.

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juende said:
uh. if you are not being paid or recognized for the work you do or your place [or role in this capitalistic society] as awhole class or race or gender and someone else is benefiting from it than that work that person has done is worth something.

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juende said:
but i guess it depends on which view you take. the perosn who is able to start up their own business, and to have workers to pay. or the ppl who are effected by it. i think we are looking at it from two different perspectives. you seem to be focusing on individaul situations. i'm trying to expose the larger picture.

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Paradigm said:

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juende said:
uh. if you are not being paid or recognized for the work you do or your place [or role in this capitalistic society] as awhole class or race or gender and someone else is benefiting from it than that work that person has done is worth something.

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Who is not being paid? You keep bringing this up without backing it up. Workers are paid whatever their employer decides labor is worth to them, and they agree to it voluntarily.

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its not taking certain jobs. as if it were as simple as if little bob and jane could just 'work harder and get a better job'

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How are they prevented from doing so? This is what I mean when I mention your condescending tone. You assume your beliefs to be so obviously true that only a moron would doubt them, when in fact you have so far been unable to back them up.

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all our rights have little fine print to it

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WTF is that supposed to mean?

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oh that is such a common response. so many ppl i've talked to will after a while cop out and say well if this sucks show me something better. that is not how things work. sure lets just toss out what we have now and start over. i'll make sumthing up real quick,

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In other words, you don't have an answer. Let me tell you something: Utopia is not an option. No system is perfect, and none will give everyone what they need. However, unlike other systems, capitalism allows everyone the freedom to pursue their own goals peacefully without forceful interference.

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juende said:
oh. first [to whats in bold] ideally that would be true. but it also opens up the oportunity for ppl to expoit the system for their needs. the needs of percentage few rich, those who have the power and wealth to do so. our capitalistic society has a global effect.
i know that no system is perfect but capitalism is far from it. its not that they system is wrong its the way we conduct ourselves under it.

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z@z.com said:

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juende said:
oh. first [to whats in bold] ideally that would be true. but it also opens up the oportunity for ppl to expoit the system for their needs. the needs of percentage few rich, those who have the power and wealth to do so. our capitalistic society has a global effect.
i know that no system is perfect but capitalism is far from it. its not that they system is wrong its the way we conduct ourselves under it.

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You have yet to back up a single argument with anything besides rhetoric. Please feel free to do so at any time.

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juende said:
a aweatshop. i'm srry i throw around words and such. i am use to being around ppl who would know what that is [and i don't mean that in a bad way]
a sweatshop is a factory usually, but not always, overseas where the people working there are not getting the basic rights of their counrty. like getting paid 18 cents an hour. forced overtime, no benefits at all. blacklisting of ppl who try to start a union, womyn being fired for being pregenat [or losing their jobs because of it] unsafe machinery, and the list goes on. and i sgree it is for them to decided and this is not what they want. i work with a group called USAS [united student against sweatshops] and currently on getting my school to be on the list of over 150 other schools that have the WRC [thats the workers rights consortium] i'll post a bunch of links afterwards. and these conditions happen becasue these factories either are located in free trade zones or the corporations like nike, gap, new era etc have made agreement with the country.

as for capitalism and rape. its is all about power. and control.
i brought up slavery because that was one whole big forcing ppl to do something against there will.

and i guess it is my responsibilty to make sure the ppl i talk to know my backround and foundation for my thining. like if i was to pput things like NFTAA, WTF anarcho-feminism, seatshops, etc would everyone know what i'm talking about.
and i am not trying to be condescending i am just talking for granted what ppl do and do not know.

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juende said:
a aweatshop. i'm srry i throw around words and such. i am use to being around ppl who would know what that is [and i don't mean that in a bad way]

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a sweatshop is a factory usually, but not always, overseas where the people working there are not getting the basic rights of their counrty. like getting paid 18 cents an hour. forced overtime, no benefits at all. blacklisting of ppl who try to start a union, womyn being fired for being pregenat [or losing their jobs because of it] unsafe machinery, and the list goes on.

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and i sgree it is for them to decided and this is not what they want.

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i work with a group called USAS [united student against sweatshops] and currently on getting my school to be on the list of over 150 other schools that have the WRC [thats the workers rights consortium] i'll post a bunch of links afterwards. and these conditions happen becasue these factories either are located in free trade zones or the corporations like nike, gap, new era etc have made agreement with the country.

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as for capitalism and rape. its is all about power. and control.

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i brought up slavery because that was one whole big forcing ppl to do something against there will.

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and i guess it is my responsibilty to make sure the ppl i talk to know my backround and foundation for my thining. like if i was to pput things like NFTAA, WTF anarcho-feminism, seatshops, etc would everyone know what i'm talking about.
and i am not trying to be condescending i am just talking for granted what ppl do and do not know.

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capitalism = darwinism.... survival of the fittest

problem is... fredom means freedom to be an asshole and freedom to be greedy

capitalism = the course of nature as it has always been... the stronger lions of the pack surviving over the weaker.... the plants with stronger roots living because they can take in mor nutrients, etc etc etc etc...

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Nature isn't all tooth and claw though - there is this wonderful thing that is often undertaken by nature. It's called symbiosis.

Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against capitalism, like you I think it is the greed inherent in mankind that is the problem, and that that is what will destropy any political ideal. I certainly feel that capitalism offers a great model, but that its rapacious side needs to be tempered. That requires humanity to reach a more conscious level, for politics to hybridise and capitalism take on wider values, for people to find strength in themselves to listen to their souls and not just their desires.

I don't think most people 'single out' capitalism for criticism, it is just that capitalism is the prevailing paradigm, and it seems to be failing us as a species and a planet. Therefore many become bitter, and yes become 'anti'. Most though look at the paradigm and perhaps find reasons to criticise. This is really an attempt to see beyond into a future possibility.

If only humanity could look into its soul and then nothing will change, yet everything will change. Something so subtle, yet all enveloping.

I suppose we are well on track, and at least some of us and a few other lifeforms will get off this rock if it all goes wrong - if it goes right, well then there is already basic form there, now it just needs injection of spirit to make it whole.

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CJay said:
Nature isn't all tooth and claw though - there is this wonderful thing that is often undertaken by nature. It's called symbiosis.

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Don't get me wrong, I have nothing against capitalism, like you I think it is the greed inherent in mankind that is the problem, and that that is what will destropy any political ideal. I certainly feel that capitalism offers a great model, but that its rapacious side needs to be tempered. That requires humanity to reach a more conscious level, for politics to hybridise and capitalism take on wider values, for people to find strength in themselves to listen to their souls and not just their desires.

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I don't think most people 'single out' capitalism for criticism, it is just that capitalism is the prevailing paradigm, and it seems to be failing us as a species and a planet. Therefore many become bitter, and yes become 'anti'. Most though look at the paradigm and perhaps find reasons to criticise. This is really an attempt to see beyond into a future possibility.

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Paradigm said:

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juende said:
a aweatshop. i'm srry i throw around words and such. i am use to being around ppl who would know what that is [and i don't mean that in a bad way]

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Everyone who uses that word seems to think they know what it means, but often it's simply used as a derogatory word for a Third World factory.

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a sweatshop is a factory usually, but not always, overseas where the people working there are not getting the basic rights of their counrty. like getting paid 18 cents an hour. forced overtime, no benefits at all. blacklisting of ppl who try to start a union, womyn being fired for being pregenat [or losing their jobs because of it] unsafe machinery, and the list goes on.

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Again, if a company decides that their labor is worth 18 cents an hour, and the people decide they are willing to work for that much, who is being forced? Sure, they could theoretically be paid 20 cents or $2 or $100 an hour, but the company has decided that 18 cents an hour is what it is willing to invest in labor, and the workers have decided that they are willing to work for that much. It may not be an ideal arrangement, but since when are we guaranteed an ideal choice? Like anyone else, these workers have limited choices, and 18 cents and hour the best option they have. If they didn't have that choice available to them, they would be worse off.

As for blacklisting unions and firing pregnant women, since when do people have a right to be employed against the employer's will? I would think that those who use their money to pay people's wages should have a say in who they employ. Now, there are some factories that engage in more violent means of coercion, such as raping women and getting police to beat protestors and union organizers, and I am in no way condoning these actions, but you must understand that such practices are in no way inherent nor unique to capitalism.

As for unsafe machinery, the fact is that some jobs are more dangerous than others, and some people are willing to take that extra risk. You don't see people complaining about how unsafe police work of firefighting is, because we all know that those people choose to take those risks. As for forced overtime, it may suck, but is in no way unique to sweatshops. My friend got forced overtime frequently when he worked at Walmart, which is part of the reason why he quit and found work elsewhere. And as for benefits, the most employee benefits I've ever gotten was half price on all food in the snack shop.

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and i sgree it is for them to decided and this is not what they want.

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I didn't want to be losing sleep trying to finish my schoolwork and pass all my classes, but I've decided I want a college degree, and thus have decided that it is the best option available for me. Getting what you want is a utopian fantasy that will never come to fruition under any system. Taking what limited options you have and choosing the best one available, however, is easily attainable under capitalism.

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i work with a group called USAS [united student against sweatshops] and currently on getting my school to be on the list of over 150 other schools that have the WRC [thats the workers rights consortium] i'll post a bunch of links afterwards. and these conditions happen becasue these factories either are located in free trade zones or the corporations like nike, gap, new era etc have made agreement with the country.

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These agreements are examples of government intervening on behalf of these companies. This goes directly against free market capitalism. This is one of this biggest misunderstandings people have about capitalism. Sweetheart deals made between governments and businesses are not what capitalism is about. In a free market, the government is neutral to all economic agents.

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as for capitalism and rape. its is all about power. and control.

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Yes, rape is all about power and control, but what does that have to do with capitalism? How is non-intervention in voluntary market transactions about power and control?

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i brought up slavery because that was one whole big forcing ppl to do something against there will.

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Again, what does this have to do with capitalism?

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and i guess it is my responsibilty to make sure the ppl i talk to know my backround and foundation for my thining. like if i was to pput things like NFTAA, WTF anarcho-feminism, seatshops, etc would everyone know what i'm talking about.
and i am not trying to be condescending i am just talking for granted what ppl do and do not know.

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You are not just taking for granted what people do and do not know, but you are also taking for granted the fact that some people might know more about the subject than you do, and that things you consider to be obvious are, in fact, dead wrong.

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CJay said:
Eventually we can hopefully hit the intelligent anarchy we could be capable of if we become conscious enough as a species.

Might take a few hundred thousand years though.

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Phred said:
What type of government operates in the countries where companies (foreign-based or indigenous) get away with paying less than the minimum wage as set out by the government of that country?

I'm guessing it's not a Capitalist government.


Phred

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juende said:
http://www.escapeartist.com/ftz/ftz_index.html

this site lists all the free trade zones.. i have a better one somewhere cuz this one is marketed to companies and doesn't give much informarion.. i'm just posting this to show a list

and here is one definition of it.

http://www.answers.com/free+trade+zones&r=67

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juende said:
here are some anti sweatshop links. i'll post [or start a new post] for anti globalism, etc links...
Anti sweatshop activists and info



United students against sweatshops national site.
http://www.studentsagainstsweatshops.org/

sweatshop watch
http://www.sweatshopwatch.org/

Global exchange.
http://www.globalexchange.org/
Global Exchange is an international human rights organization dedicated to
promoting environmental, political and social justice. Since our founding
in 1988, we have increased the US public's global awareness while building
partnerships worldwide.

National Mobilization Against Sweatshops
<http://www.nmass.org/nmass/fight.html>

Coop Americas campaign to end sweatshops, some good info.
http://www.sweatshops.org/

United States Labor Education In the Americas project
<http://www.usleap.org/>

National Labor Committee
http://www.nlcnet.org/
Kathy Lee Gifford look out!

International Labor Organization
http://www.ilo.org/
a department of the united nations which deals with international labor
standards and works to make globalization fair for the 3rd world.

Slap (student labor action project)
http://www.jwj.org/SLAP/slap.htm

jobs with justice
http://www.jwj.org/

Western new York sweatshop awareness project
http://www.wnysap.org/
good bunch of folks.

Labor Religion Coalition./ Coalition for economic justice.
http://www.labor-religion.org/local_cej_bar.htm
Runs a sweat free schools campaign.

No Sweat
http://www.nosweat.org.uk/
the UK's version of usas. (really just a bunch of drunken soccer fans)

http://www.campusactivism.org/
a nation wide network of about 635 groups which allows them to network on a
wide range of issues.

National colation for occupational safty and health
http://www.coshnetwork.org

Amnesty International
http://www.amnesty.org/
considers the right to organize as a fundamental human right, also works to
free jailed labor leaders around the world.

Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/
Has a program focusing on the plight of migrant workers.

Coalition for Justice in the Maquiladoras
<http://www.coalitionforjustice.net/>
fighting nafta and helping to improve the living conditions for people in
the maquilidora region of northern Mexico.It is led by both workers in
mexico, and a tri national coalition of labor, environmental, Latino,
women's rights and religious organizations.

The United States Stuednt Association
http://www.usstudents.org/main.asp
one of the largest student voices in washington, runs the grass roots
organizing weekend (grow) training's.

Stop Nike Sweatshops
<http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/nike/>
from the company that everyone loves to hate.

a quick fact sheet on wal-mart
<http://www.ufcw.org/press_room/fact_sheets_and_backgrounder/walmart/sweat_
shops.cfm>
many think that they are the worst company in the world when it comes to
this issue. their "always lower prices, always" come off the backs of a lot
of people all around the world.
"In October 10, 2002, the National Organization for Women (NOW) reported
that the Maine Department of Labor ordered Wal-Mart to pay the largest fine
in state history for violating child labor laws. The Department of Labor
discovered 1,436 child labor law infractions at 20 Wal-Mart chains in the
state."

The Harvard Living Wage Campaign
<http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~pslm/livingwage/portal.html>
Info on an awesome successful campaign at Harvard which ended with the
occupation of the presidents office for 2 weeks.

Unions,

The Unite Union (formerly the Union of Needle Trades, Textiles and
Industrial Employees)
http://www.unitehere.org/

Afl-Cio
http://www.aflcio.org/
the nations largest grouping of unions.

Communication workers of America
http://www.cwa-union.org/
(these guys represented the new era workers)

CSEA
http://www.csealocal1000.org/

SEIU
http://www.seiu.org
run the justice for janitors campaign

The united food and commercial workers
http://www.ufcw.org

The United Farm Workers
http://www.ufw.org/
Cezar Chaves's union.

The Coalition of Black Trade Unionists.
<http://www.cbtu.org>

The National Labor Relations Board
<http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/home/default.asp>

Monitoring boards.

The Worker Rights Consortium (WRC)
http://www.workersrights.org/
The Worker Rights Consortium (WRC) is a non-profit organization created by
college and university administrations, students and labor rights experts.
The WRC's purpose is to assist in the enforcement of manufacturing Codes of
Conduct adopted by colleges and universities; these Codes are designed to
ensure that factories producing clothing and other goods bearing college
and university names respect the basic rights of workers. There are more
than 100 colleges and universities affiliated with the WRC.

Fair Labor Association  (run by industry leaders, non independent)
http://www.fairlabor.org/
"our mission: The Fair Labor Association (FLA) is a non-profit organization
combining the efforts of industry, non-governmental organizations (NGOs),
colleges and universities to promote adherence to international labor
standards and improve working conditions worldwide."

The Collegiate Licensing Company
www.clc.com
I'm not sure what they do, but I think it pertains to us.

News.

The nation
www.thenation.com
good read, one of the leading left magazines in America, have mentioned
usas many times.

www.indymedia.org
good anti corporate event coverage.

international labor news, not sure how good it is.
http://www.labourstart.org/

the British broadcasting service.
www.bbc.co.uk/news
one of the best global sources of news and information, free from corporate
or political bias.

The United States Government's bureau of labor statistics.
<http://stats.bls.gov/>

Globalization stuff.(if your into this sort of thing, but its all
connected.)

world trade organization
www.wto.org
(we don't like em)

International monetary fund.
www.imf.org
(we dont like em either)

The International Forum on Globalization  (smart folks)
http://www.ifg.org/
Representing over 60 organizations in 25 countries, the International Forum
on Globalization associates come together out of a shared concern that the
world's corporate and political leadership is undertaking a restructuring
of global politics and economics that may prove as historically significant
as any event since the Industrial Revolution. This restructuring is
happening at tremendous speed, with little public disclosure of the
profound consequences affecting democracy, human welfare, local economies,
and the natural world.

Economic Policy Institute. (more smart folks)
<http://www.epinet.org/>

World Social Forum.
http://www.wsfindia.org/
The World Social Forum is not an organization, not a united front
platform, but "?an open meeting place for reflective thinking, democratic
debate of ideas, formulation of proposals, free exchange of experiences and
inter-linking for effective action, by groups and movements of civil
society that are opposed to neo- liberalism and to domination of the world
by capital and any form of imperialism, and are committed to building a
society centred on the human person". (From the WSF Charter of Principles).
     

CorpWatch
<http://corpwatch.org/>
Holding corporations accountable when they mess up.

The Center For Economic and Policy Research. (even more smart folks)
<http://www.cepr.net/>

Fair Trade Stuff.

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/
Oxfam works with others to overcome poverty and suffering. They are famous
for their "make trade fair" campaign.

http://www.transfairusa.org/
works to certify consumer goods as fairly traded.

equal exchange
www.equalexchange.com
one of the nations largest providers of fairly traded coffee

coop America
http://www.coopamerica.org/

Music, tatical media, and other fun stuff.

The Billboard Liberation Front
<http://www.billboardliberation.com/>
liberating billboards from crass commercial lies since 1973

The Yes Men.
http://www.theyesmen.org/
pretending to be people they are not, to keep those people honest. have a
feature film coming to a theater near you.

The Corporation
<http://www.thecorporation.com/>
a documentary on corporate crime and influence in our daily lives, chilling
stuff.

Sweatshop Union
http://www.sweatshopunion.com/
Canadian political hiphop. I kid you not.


adbusters.
www.adbusters.org
a magazine which is highly critical of commercial culture.

The reverend Billy and the church of stop shopping.
http://www.revbilly.com/
um....hard to describe....but interesting, check it out.

Big Noise Films,
http://www.bignoisefilms.com/home.htm
awesome film makers.

The Tactical Media Network.
<http://www.waag.org/tmn/>
Methods and theory on how activists with out a lot of resources can get
their messages to a wider audience by utilizing advanced technology.

Anti sweatshop clothing

American Apparel
http://www.americanapparel.net/
the worlds largest label selling only sweatshop free clothing, (caution,
staunchly anti union)

No Sweat!
http://nosweatapparel.com/
good stuff

Ethical Threads,
http://www.ethicalthreads.co.uk/
all their clothing is made by worker owned coops in Latin America, its cool
stuff.

Polartec
http://www.polartec.com/
High tech outterwhere made by Malden Mills? in eastern Massachusetts. They
make some awesome stuff, and these are the clothes they take to mount
Everest.

Patagonia
http://www.patagonia.com/
these guys have the reputation of being a rather ethical manufacturer, im
not sure about their labor record though, buyer beware. they are part of
the FLA.

Sweat X
<http://www.sweatx.net/>
i think they may have gone out of business.

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Quote:

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Phred said:
I do know both sides of what I'm talking about. I live in a third world country which has free zones -- the Dominican Republic. I've lived here over seventeen years. I know people who work in the free zones.


Phred

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Quote:

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juende said:
but that is part of the defintion of free trade....

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