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 Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 4 days, 7 hours
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 Re: capitalism  [Re: juende]
#3784726 - 02/15/05 07:26 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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So you're saying the government of these countries interferes with the economy of the countries in question? I am aware of no country in which the free trade zones run with no government interference whatsoever -- for example without minimum wage laws. Perhaps you could provide a source naming such a country.
Phred
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 4 days, 7 hours
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784746 - 02/15/05 07:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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This thread isn't about how the mixed economies of the various governments in the world operate, it's about Capitalism. Foreign aid is not a part of Capitalism. Under Capitalism, the separation of economy and state is absolute.
When you start bringing up the track record of the current president of the United States, you are dodging the issue. The US is not currently Capitalist, hasn't been for a very long time (many argue it never was), and is becoming less Capitalist with each passing year.
If you want to address perceived shortcomings of Capitalism, do so. Stop bringing up straw man arguments.
Phred
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juende
feministpresence
Registered: 02/20/04
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Re: capitalism [Re: Phred]
#3784754 - 02/15/05 07:30 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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but that is part of the defintion of free trade....
hold on i'm looking up some sites,
i'm not gonna do all your research for you. it is up to you to educate yourself. do not take anything at face value and challenge everything.. even the ideas that you believe in.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 4 days, 7 hours
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784773 - 02/15/05 07:33 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Sorry, but that's the way it works. If you make an assertion that there are countries out there which allow companies to pay less than the government mandated minimum wage in some parts of the country but not in others, it's up to you to back up that assertion, not up to me to disprove it.
Phred
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juende
feministpresence
Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 729
Last seen: 10 months, 4 days
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784790 - 02/15/05 07:36 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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http://www.escapeartist.com/ftz/ftz_index.html
this site lists all the free trade zones.. i have a better one somewhere cuz this one is marketed to companies and doesn't give much informarion.. i'm just posting this to show a list
and here is one definition of it.
http://www.answers.com/free+trade+zones&r=67
Edited by juende (02/15/05 07:37 PM)
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juende
feministpresence
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Re: capitalism [Re: Phred]
#3784809 - 02/15/05 07:39 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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i'm not saying that its up to you to prove my facts, but is up to you to know both sides of what you are talking about.
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 4 days, 7 hours
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784814 - 02/15/05 07:40 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Neither link provides a statement that any of the zones listed allow companies to pay less than the government-mandated minimum wage for the country in question. Perhaps you may find a different link which does. Take your time.
Phred
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juende
feministpresence
Registered: 02/20/04
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Last seen: 10 months, 4 days
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784825 - 02/15/05 07:43 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
juende said:
http://www.escapeartist.com/ftz/ftz_index.html
this site lists all the free trade zones.. i have a better one somewhere cuz this one is marketed to companies and doesn't give much informarion.. i'm just posting this to show a list
and here is one definition of it.
http://www.answers.com/free+trade+zones&r=67
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 4 days, 7 hours
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784836 - 02/15/05 07:44 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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I do know both sides of what I'm talking about. I live in a third world country which has free zones -- the Dominican Republic. I've lived here over seventeen years. I know people who work in the free zones.
Phred
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juende
feministpresence
Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 729
Last seen: 10 months, 4 days
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784854 - 02/15/05 07:48 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
juende said:
here are some anti sweatshop links. i'll post [or start a new post] for anti globalism, etc links...
Anti sweatshop activists and info
United students against sweatshops national site.
http://www.studentsagainstsweatshops.org/
sweatshop watch
http://www.sweatshopwatch.org/
Global exchange.
http://www.globalexchange.org/
Global Exchange is an international human rights organization dedicated to
promoting environmental, political and social justice. Since our founding
in 1988, we have increased the US public's global awareness while building
partnerships worldwide.
National Mobilization Against Sweatshops
<http://www.nmass.org/nmass/fight.html>
Coop Americas campaign to end sweatshops, some good info.
http://www.sweatshops.org/
United States Labor Education In the Americas project
<http://www.usleap.org/>
National Labor Committee
http://www.nlcnet.org/
Kathy Lee Gifford look out!
International Labor Organization
http://www.ilo.org/
a department of the united nations which deals with international labor
standards and works to make globalization fair for the 3rd world.
Slap (student labor action project)
http://www.jwj.org/SLAP/slap.htm
jobs with justice
http://www.jwj.org/
Western new York sweatshop awareness project
http://www.wnysap.org/
good bunch of folks.
Labor Religion Coalition./ Coalition for economic justice.
http://www.labor-religion.org/local_cej_bar.htm
Runs a sweat free schools campaign.
No Sweat
http://www.nosweat.org.uk/
the UK's version of usas. (really just a bunch of drunken soccer fans)
http://www.campusactivism.org/
a nation wide network of about 635 groups which allows them to network on a
wide range of issues.
National colation for occupational safty and health
http://www.coshnetwork.org
Amnesty International
http://www.amnesty.org/
considers the right to organize as a fundamental human right, also works to
free jailed labor leaders around the world.
Human Rights Watch
http://www.hrw.org/
Has a program focusing on the plight of migrant workers.
Coalition for Justice in the Maquiladoras
<http://www.coalitionforjustice.net/>
fighting nafta and helping to improve the living conditions for people in
the maquilidora region of northern Mexico.It is led by both workers in
mexico, and a tri national coalition of labor, environmental, Latino,
women's rights and religious organizations.
The United States Stuednt Association
http://www.usstudents.org/main.asp
one of the largest student voices in washington, runs the grass roots
organizing weekend (grow) training's.
Stop Nike Sweatshops
<http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/sweatshops/nike/>
from the company that everyone loves to hate.
a quick fact sheet on wal-mart
<http://www.ufcw.org/press_room/fact_sheets_and_backgrounder/walmart/sweat_
shops.cfm>
many think that they are the worst company in the world when it comes to
this issue. their "always lower prices, always" come off the backs of a lot
of people all around the world.
"In October 10, 2002, the National Organization for Women (NOW) reported
that the Maine Department of Labor ordered Wal-Mart to pay the largest fine
in state history for violating child labor laws. The Department of Labor
discovered 1,436 child labor law infractions at 20 Wal-Mart chains in the
state."
The Harvard Living Wage Campaign
<http://www.hcs.harvard.edu/~pslm/livingwage/portal.html>
Info on an awesome successful campaign at Harvard which ended with the
occupation of the presidents office for 2 weeks.
Unions,
The Unite Union (formerly the Union of Needle Trades, Textiles and
Industrial Employees)
http://www.unitehere.org/
Afl-Cio
http://www.aflcio.org/
the nations largest grouping of unions.
Communication workers of America
http://www.cwa-union.org/
(these guys represented the new era workers)
CSEA
http://www.csealocal1000.org/
SEIU
http://www.seiu.org
run the justice for janitors campaign
The united food and commercial workers
http://www.ufcw.org
The United Farm Workers
http://www.ufw.org/
Cezar Chaves's union.
The Coalition of Black Trade Unionists.
<http://www.cbtu.org>
The National Labor Relations Board
<http://www.nlrb.gov/nlrb/home/default.asp>
Monitoring boards.
The Worker Rights Consortium (WRC)
http://www.workersrights.org/
The Worker Rights Consortium (WRC) is a non-profit organization created by
college and university administrations, students and labor rights experts.
The WRC's purpose is to assist in the enforcement of manufacturing Codes of
Conduct adopted by colleges and universities; these Codes are designed to
ensure that factories producing clothing and other goods bearing college
and university names respect the basic rights of workers. There are more
than 100 colleges and universities affiliated with the WRC.
Fair Labor Association (run by industry leaders, non independent)
http://www.fairlabor.org/
"our mission: The Fair Labor Association (FLA) is a non-profit organization
combining the efforts of industry, non-governmental organizations (NGOs),
colleges and universities to promote adherence to international labor
standards and improve working conditions worldwide."
The Collegiate Licensing Company
www.clc.com
I'm not sure what they do, but I think it pertains to us.
News.
The nation
www.thenation.com
good read, one of the leading left magazines in America, have mentioned
usas many times.
www.indymedia.org
good anti corporate event coverage.
international labor news, not sure how good it is.
http://www.labourstart.org/
the British broadcasting service.
www.bbc.co.uk/news
one of the best global sources of news and information, free from corporate
or political bias.
The United States Government's bureau of labor statistics.
<http://stats.bls.gov/>
Globalization stuff.(if your into this sort of thing, but its all
connected.)
world trade organization
www.wto.org
(we don't like em)
International monetary fund.
www.imf.org
(we dont like em either)
The International Forum on Globalization (smart folks)
http://www.ifg.org/
Representing over 60 organizations in 25 countries, the International Forum
on Globalization associates come together out of a shared concern that the
world's corporate and political leadership is undertaking a restructuring
of global politics and economics that may prove as historically significant
as any event since the Industrial Revolution. This restructuring is
happening at tremendous speed, with little public disclosure of the
profound consequences affecting democracy, human welfare, local economies,
and the natural world.
Economic Policy Institute. (more smart folks)
<http://www.epinet.org/>
World Social Forum.
http://www.wsfindia.org/
The World Social Forum is not an organization, not a united front
platform, but "?an open meeting place for reflective thinking, democratic
debate of ideas, formulation of proposals, free exchange of experiences and
inter-linking for effective action, by groups and movements of civil
society that are opposed to neo- liberalism and to domination of the world
by capital and any form of imperialism, and are committed to building a
society centred on the human person". (From the WSF Charter of Principles).
CorpWatch
<http://corpwatch.org/>
Holding corporations accountable when they mess up.
The Center For Economic and Policy Research. (even more smart folks)
<http://www.cepr.net/>
Fair Trade Stuff.
http://www.oxfam.org.uk/
Oxfam works with others to overcome poverty and suffering. They are famous
for their "make trade fair" campaign.
http://www.transfairusa.org/
works to certify consumer goods as fairly traded.
equal exchange
www.equalexchange.com
one of the nations largest providers of fairly traded coffee
coop America
http://www.coopamerica.org/
Music, tatical media, and other fun stuff.
The Billboard Liberation Front
<http://www.billboardliberation.com/>
liberating billboards from crass commercial lies since 1973
The Yes Men.
http://www.theyesmen.org/
pretending to be people they are not, to keep those people honest. have a
feature film coming to a theater near you.
The Corporation
<http://www.thecorporation.com/>
a documentary on corporate crime and influence in our daily lives, chilling
stuff.
Sweatshop Union
http://www.sweatshopunion.com/
Canadian political hiphop. I kid you not.
adbusters.
www.adbusters.org
a magazine which is highly critical of commercial culture.
The reverend Billy and the church of stop shopping.
http://www.revbilly.com/
um....hard to describe....but interesting, check it out.
Big Noise Films,
http://www.bignoisefilms.com/home.htm
awesome film makers.
The Tactical Media Network.
<http://www.waag.org/tmn/>
Methods and theory on how activists with out a lot of resources can get
their messages to a wider audience by utilizing advanced technology.
Anti sweatshop clothing
American Apparel
http://www.americanapparel.net/
the worlds largest label selling only sweatshop free clothing, (caution,
staunchly anti union)
No Sweat!
http://nosweatapparel.com/
good stuff
Ethical Threads,
http://www.ethicalthreads.co.uk/
all their clothing is made by worker owned coops in Latin America, its cool
stuff.
Polartec
http://www.polartec.com/
High tech outterwhere made by Malden Mills? in eastern Massachusetts. They
make some awesome stuff, and these are the clothes they take to mount
Everest.
Patagonia
http://www.patagonia.com/
these guys have the reputation of being a rather ethical manufacturer, im
not sure about their labor record though, buyer beware. they are part of
the FLA.
Sweat X
<http://www.sweatx.net/>
i think they may have gone out of business. 
here in case you've missed this.
and i have a ton more. i think you should take some time to better formulate your argument. because right not you are talking about the idea of capitalism and not how it actual works. if you want to talk theory, ok. but here, in real time. capitalism doesn't work that way. it is not idependant of governments or personal intersts and it has major global influences and consequences.. both good and bad.
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juende
feministpresence
Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 729
Last seen: 10 months, 4 days
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Re: capitalism [Re: Phred]
#3784866 - 02/15/05 07:51 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Phred said:
I do know both sides of what I'm talking about. I live in a third world country which has free zones -- the Dominican Republic. I've lived here over seventeen years. I know people who work in the free zones.
Phred
if so, do you see any connections to capitlism, sweatshops and globalization?
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784882 - 02/15/05 07:55 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
juende said:
but that is part of the defintion of free trade....
Foreign aid is not part of free trade. It's foreign aid.
Government subsidies are not part of free trade. They're favoritism.
Unequal or punitive tariffs are not part of free trade. They're favoritism.
Government promotions (or advertisement) of favored businesses is not part of free trade. They're favoritism.
In short, government involvement other than what is necessary against theft, fraud, force, adjudicating disputes (such as seeing that parties honor contracts) is not free trade.
To point to government interferences and then declare that their effects are the result of free trade is dishonest.
--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.
You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite
Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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cb9fl
Senior ChildMolestationExpert
Registered: 06/12/03
Posts: 3,104
Loc: florida
Last seen: 3 years, 9 months
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Is Phred pinky?
--------------------
It is better to be hated for what you are than to be loved for what you are not. -Andre Gide
"Generosity is nothing else than a craze to possess. All which I abandon, all which I give, I enjoy in a higher manner through the fact that I give it away. To give is to enjoy possessively the object which one gives."
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 4 days, 7 hours
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784921 - 02/15/05 08:02 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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juende writes:
"here in case you've missed this.
and i have a ton more."
And since you've taken the time to formulate your argument, and presumably thoroughly read the information at those links, you should have no difficulty linking one with a cut and paste of the section where it names a country where companies in the free zones of that country are allowed to pay less than the government-mandated minimum wage.
"i think you should take some time to better formulate your argument. because right not you are talking about the idea of capitalism and not how it actual works."
I suggest you re-read the opening post by the initiator of the thread. He isn't talking about the US, he's talking about Capitalism.
If you want to complain about how the governments of mixed-economy nations interfere in free trade, be my guest. I'll even join in with you. But don't call that interference Capitalism, because it isn't.
"capitalism doesn't work that way. it is not idependant of governments or personal intersts and it has major global influences and consequences.. both good and bad."
By definition, Capitalism is independent of government -- but not of personal interests, obviously.
I suggest you re-read this thread from the beginning. You're attacking the wrong thing. We're on the same side here -- we both abhor government interference in transactions between consenting traders. People should be left free to conduct their business transactions as they see fit. Capitalism is the only socio-economic political framework under which this can occur.
Phred
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 4 days, 7 hours
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784942 - 02/15/05 08:07 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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juende asks:
"f so, do you see any connections to capitlism, sweatshops and globalization?"
Please be specific.
The transactions which occur in the Zona Francas here are interfered with to a smaller degree than those which take place elsewhere on the island, so in that sense the Zona Francas are closer to Capitalist than the rest of the island.
As for "globalization", most (but by no means all) of what is produced in the zones is exported, so in that sense it effects other parts of the globe.
As for "sweatshops", I will tell you truly that whenever a new factory opens here there is jubilation and long lineups of people hoping to score a job. Whenever one closes there is lamentation. In a country where the average daytime temperature is 90 degrees or higher for over half the year, pretty much every job involves sweat.
Phred
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juende
feministpresence
Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 729
Last seen: 10 months, 4 days
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To point to government interferences and then declare that their effects are the result of free trade is dishonest.
uh, thats not what i said. not sure what you're getting at.
but all that happens under free trade.. not the other way around.
i can agree with alot of what ppl are saying here about "the government shouldn't have any involvement... etc" but that is not how it really is. and then to ask me to prove it. i'm not going to find it in one article or one book. or give you a link to one site that will justify everything i'm saying here. no one came up to me saying "hey this this and that" and i said.. ok. i had my own doubts and researched and learned as much as i could [and can]
i wish it were easy as look at this graph or chart.
i mean do you not have any doubts that things are not all on the by and by when it comes down to capitlism? for a select few to be so rich and so powerful and so many to be in poverty.. something has to be off... its not just life and well might as well take it. its things that we can change becasue we have the power to.
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
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Re: capitalism [Re: cb9fl]
#3784956 - 02/15/05 08:10 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
cb9fl said:
Is Phred pinky?
No, I think he's closer to being The Brain. NARF!!
--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.
You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite
Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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Prosgeopax
Jaded, yethopeful?
Registered: 01/28/05
Posts: 1,258
Loc: Appearing at a mall near ...
Last seen: 7 years, 4 months
|
Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784970 - 02/15/05 08:13 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
juende said:
but all that happens under free trade.. not the other way around.
No, all that happens as GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE, impinging upon free trade.
--------------------
Money doesn't grow on trees, but deficits do grow under Bushes.
You can accept, reject, or examine and test any new idea that comes to you. The wise man chooses the third way.
- Tom Willhite
Disclaimer: I reserve the right to change my opinions should I become aware of additional facts, the falsification of information or different perspectives. Articles written by others which I post may not necessarily reflect my opinions in part or in whole, my opinions may be in direct opposition, the topic may be one on which I have yet to formulate an opinion or have doubts about, an article may be posted solely with the intent to stimulate discussion or contemplation.
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juende
feministpresence
Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 729
Last seen: 10 months, 4 days
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Re: capitalism [Re: juende]
#3784987 - 02/15/05 08:18 PM (8 years, 3 months ago) |
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In a country where the average daytime temperature is 90 degrees or higher for over half the year, pretty much every job involves sweat.
ha ha ha.. yeah i got "Sweat"shop.
i think you are in a very unique position. you are experienceing this first hand. and i am not trying to be funny but do you know what a sweatshop is or the effects of globalization??
how is the econmy where you live? do you think that these factoies are improving life? how much of the laws do you know?
i couldn't tell you everything about the US gov'tment or the laws but i would like to say that i know more than the general public that only reads the local/nationsl newspaers or watch the news on tv.
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juende
feministpresence
Registered: 02/20/04
Posts: 729
Last seen: 10 months, 4 days
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Quote:
Prosgeopax said:
Quote:
juende said:
but all that happens under free trade.. not the other way around.
No, all that happens as GOVERNMENT INTERFERENCE, impinging upon free trade.
i can say that they are interchangable.. on does not happen without the other on some level
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