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 Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
 
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,826
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill 
Last seen: 4 hours, 42 minutes
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 Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This  [Re: MOTH]
#3514752 - 12/17/04 08:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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That last post was brought to you by the National Dept of Redundancy Dept.
Oops... I'm done with this thread... I forgot. 
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
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 MOTH
Wild Woman
Registered: 06/06/03
Posts: 22,982
Loc: In the jungle
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Cervantes]
#3514779 - 12/17/04 08:16 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I just had a thought...
Why don't we keep S&P as is, except place a notice in the forum rules that if you do not want your views challenged then to post in OTD or the Pub...
I see philosophical/spiritual posts in the Pub all the time as a general sharing of ideas, and they never erupt into debate. (well, hardly ever)
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looner2
ABBA fan
Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 3,849
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: MOTH]
#3515069 - 12/17/04 10:15 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Cervantes I wish you could cut the shit and just look at this objectively.
Swami was banned by people who never got along with him.
After swami was banned an overwhelming majority spoke out against the banning.
Now you sit here trying to defend it as some righteous act. As much as you wish you had some kind of secret privy info that can justify this, "secret PMs", "untold of warnings!!"... the facts are that everyone sees what swami writes, and everyone knows what the hell is going on, and we are pissed that he got banned. Just see it for what it is... an injustice.
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I am in love with Acidic_Sloth
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Psilygirl]
#3515074 - 12/17/04 10:20 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Psilygirl writes:
"I however gave up posting in PA&L because no matter what scientific arguments I gave for environmental issues, I got told I was wrong and there wasnt enough evidence and basically got the boot."
I've read this whole thread and refrained from saying anything at all about prior references to myself because this thread isn't about me or PA&L, it's about Swami and S&P.
However, since my name has now been mentioned several times in this thread I think I am justified in pointing out that a look at Psilygirl's perceptions of how she was treated in the global warming thread may shed some light on the reason why this action re Swami is being so fiercely debated.
"...no matter what scientific arguments I gave for environmental issues..."
Psilygirl didn't always give exclusively scientific arguments that human activity is contributing to global warming. Some of her posts were "appeal to authority" type comments -- "the consensus of the scientific community is..." kind of thing.
"...I got told I was wrong..."
I didn't just tell her "she was wrong", I pointed out the fact (and yes it is a fact) that many scientists remain unconvinced that human activity is causing global warming. I further mentioned data -- not opinion, or speculation or models or projections or estimates mind you, but data -- from weather balloons and satellites showing there has been no temperature increase since these measurements have been started. I also mentioned that some of the peer-reviewed articles have been shown to be erroneous in that they use bad methodology, faulty mathematical analysis (i.e the broken "hockey stick" example), inbuilt bias in some of the computer models, etc. I also mentioned it has been confirmed that the sun is currently going through one of its more active phases in terms of output. More heat from the sun = more heat on earth.
I should also mention I am not the only one who has brought these and other easily-checked facts to the table of discussion on global warming. There have been numerous threads in PA&L on this topic. Psilygirl probably hasn't seen them all. She may not have seen any of them.
"...and there wasnt enough evidence..."
Here's the thing. There is apparently enough evidence that humans are causing global warming to satisfy her. The point is, there is not enough evidence to satisfy me or several other frequent posters in PA&L or for that matter many, MANY scientists either. She feels browbeaten because she feels the evidence in favor of her position isn't given enough weight by myself and others, yet she has no qualms about giving no weight at all to the evidence (and yes, it is evidence -- evidence as good as and often more scientifically rigorous than some of the speculations from her sources) I and others bring to the table. She is convinced of her position and sees any opposing views as instantly dismissable. She came right out and said the balloon and satellite data was meaningless. Although apparently I must accept her "evidence" at face value with no questioning, she feels no such compunction to do the same with mine, because global warming is REAL, dammit!
"...and basically got the boot."
That's just wrong. I've debated the same issue with others, they weren't given the boot. Neither was Psilygirl. She got frustrated the evidence she presented didn't instantly convert us skeptics and bailed. No one -- least of all me -- "gave her the boot".
"Some people are just really full of themselves and think they know everything and should chill the fuck out and let others discover their own ideas without the fear of their ideas being derailed because one random dude "knows all."
Indeed, Psilygirl. You are convinced that you know global warming due to human action is actually occurring. You know everything about global warming -- I know nothing. You can't possibly be in error, it must be me who's too stupid to buy your assertions. I know nothing about satellite data or solar cycles or faulty statistical analysis -- because damn it, global warming is real!. Therefore, the only reason I am debating you must be because either
a: I am a dickhead
b: I am too stupid to see you are right
Maybe Psilygirl started the thread just assuming we would all accept as a given that global warming is real, in the same way we all agree the War on Drugs is wrong. The thing is, we don't all agree with her premise, and that surprise may have affected her perception on the nature of the responses she received.
So how is this relevant to the Swami situation? Because it's all about perceptions. Psilygirl's perception of what occurred in that thread differs from that of mine and the others who don't see her arguments as convincing. The same thing occurs in threads in which Swami participates. People often have a lot invested in their particular belief system, especially their personal spiritual belief system, and when it is questioned they are not always able to separate themselves from their beliefs. "That guy is treating me mean!" Well... maybe he is. But maybe he isn't. Maybe someone looking in on the discussion doesn't see any meanness, because he has nothing invested in the topic under discussion and can instead dispassionately examine the relative values of the arguments being presented and come to his own conclusions.
Don't take any of this to mean I am on Swami's side or that I am against Swami. I've read too few of his posts in S&P to have a valid opinion on this one way or the other. I merely used posts in which my name appeared to make a point about how the two sides in this standoff perceive things differently.
pinky
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Psilygirl
cyan goddess
Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 4,418
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 month, 30 days
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phred]
#3515094 - 12/17/04 10:28 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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I certainly didnt mean to hijack this thread towards you and I don't think what *really* went down in that thread really matters in regards to this....
I was simply stating how I understand how others might feel in regards to being trivialized by Swami, since alot of liberals and environmentalists might feel trivialized by you in PA&L.
I didn't mean to get this thread off topic, I was just stating a personal example and I don't think this is the place for an argument on global warming! 
sorry to have riled you up pinky, I was just using a personal experience to compare the situations at hand.
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"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."
Puget Sound Mycological Society
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Psilygirl]
#3515100 - 12/17/04 10:30 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I was just using a personal experience to compare the situations at hand.
As was I.
pinky
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Phred
Fred's son
Registered: 10/19/00
Posts: 12,646
Loc: Dominican Republic
Last seen: 1 day, 15 hours
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Psilygirl]
#3515126 - 12/17/04 10:45 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
I was simply stating how I understand how others might feel in regards to being trivialized by Swami, since alot of liberals and environmentalists might feel trivialized by you in PA&L.
And that is exactly why this situation is such a tricky one -- this has little to do with objectivity and everything to do with feelings. "Trivialized", huh? There's a loaded term!
Those who believe Swami was unjustly disciplined are asking for objective proof he broke rules. How can one objectively show that Swami's posts hurt someone's feelings? One cannot -- one can only take the word of the person claiming to have been hurt. Some examples have been brought up in this thread (and in others) only to be pooh-poohed by the Swami supporters --
"Well, hell... how can you say that is a personal slam. I certainly wouldn't call it one!"
Well... that may be true. He might not see it that way. But obviously the person affected did see it that way or he wouldn't have taken the trouble to PM a mod or an admin about it.
Ped's points here are correct. At least part of the problem is that some people are choosing to take offense at Swami's remarks. Someone else who had been handed the same remark might have taken no offense. On the other hand, it is possible that Swami is deliberately attempting to provoke that kind of reaction. I repeat that I haven't read enough of Swami's posts myself to form a valid opinion on the matter, but I've seen enough posts from people who have read a ton of his work to conclude they aren't just making stuff up. Some people honestly believe Swami is denigrating them. The relevant question is -- what action (if any) should the moderators take to address this honestly perceived denigration?
Again I will note that this is mainly a question of perception. I find that apropos considering this is a site dedicated to spreading information on a substance whose major effect is on perception. Is that ironic or not?
pinky
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Ped
Circumspect
Registered: 08/31/99
Posts: 2,322
Loc: Canada
Last seen: 20 hours, 8 minutes
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phred]
#3515166 - 12/17/04 11:05 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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>> On what basis do you compare an unjust ban to those demanding a ban for someone who has broken no rules?
It's not necessary to blame anybody by making any such comparison. The whole situation is very unfortunate for everyone involved.
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Psilygirl
cyan goddess
Registered: 08/28/03
Posts: 4,418
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 1 month, 30 days
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Phred]
#3515184 - 12/17/04 11:12 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
pinksharkmark said:Ped's points here are correct. At least part of the problem is that some people are choosing to take offense at Swami's remarks. Someone else who had been handed the same remark might have taken no offense. On the other hand, it is possible that Swami is deliberately attempting to provoke that kind of reaction. I repeat that I haven't read enough of Swami's posts myself to form a valid opinion on the matter, but I've seen enough posts from people who have read a ton of his work to conclude they aren't just making stuff up. Some people honestly believe Swami is denigrating them. The relevant question is -- what action (if any) should the moderators take to address this honestly perceived denigration?
Again I will note that this is mainly a question of perception. I find that apropos considering this is a site dedicated to spreading information on a substance whose major effect is on perception. Is that ironic or not?
pinky
so true 
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"Love says 'I am everything.' Wisdom says 'I am nothing.' Between the two, my life flows."
Puget Sound Mycological Society
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Cervantes
Devil's Advocate
Registered: 09/24/03
Posts: 15,826
Loc: Dark Side of the Windmill
Last seen: 4 hours, 42 minutes
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: looner2]
#3515825 - 12/18/04 02:16 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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My dog likes to keep barking at the mailman... for 10 minutes after the guy leaves. It serves no purpose... I guess the dog just likes to bark.
Funny thing is... excepting Sundays, the mailman always returns, and the process begins again.
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I know you think you understand the words I have just said to you but, what you fail to realize is, what you thought I said is not what I actually meant by saying what I said, when I said it.
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SkorpivoMusterion
Livin in theTwilight Zone...
Registered: 01/30/03
Posts: 9,909
Loc: You can't spell fungus wi...
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Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: Ped]
#3515847 - 12/18/04 02:23 AM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ped said:
That's right, it's all a big contest. Swami vs. The Admins, SMACKDOWN, only on Pay Per View, order now, etc etc.
Or, get it on DVD, starring Skorpi G, Master Ped, Deffman, Swami G, FireworksMasta and more!
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Coffee should be black as hell, strong as death, and sweet as love.
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trendal
point of inflection
Registered: 04/17/01
Posts: 19,182
Loc: Ontario, Canada
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You're here because you know something.
What you know you can't explain,
But you feel it;
You've felt it your entire life.
That there's something wrong with the world.
You don't know what it is, but it's there....
Like a splinter in your mind...
Driving you mad.
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FreakQlibrium
Son of Uncle Meat
Registered: 06/06/02
Posts: 19,058
Loc: Toronto Canada 
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 Re: My Concentrated View On All Of This [Re: fireworks_god]
#3517241 - 12/18/04 03:35 PM (8 years, 5 months ago) |
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As usual a well thought out and articulate view it is. I myself have never taken offense at Swami nor at anytime felt he was attacking ME, just my position. I can however see where his (sometimes) somewhat abrasive approach could concievably get under someone's skin with a slightly more sensitive constitution to that sort of thing than i possess. In any case, I myself don't think he should have been banned, just my .02
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"Being crazier than a shithouse rat is not sufficient grounds for banishment"
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