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Anonymous
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 Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans.  [Re: silversoul7]
#2018007 - 10/17/03 03:23 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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so to an extent, human events are not predetermined?
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 silversoul7
Chill the FuckOut!
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2018011 - 10/17/03 03:25 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Yes, to an extent, tho a very trivial extent. In the long-term, our fate is out of our hands.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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DoctorJ
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2018012 - 10/17/03 03:25 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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yes.
the extent depends upon the human
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peace, pot, and microdot!
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: DoctorJ]
#2018018 - 10/17/03 03:29 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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ok. now... if free will does exist to an extent, and human events are not completely pre-determined...
we'll accept clause 3 as 'true' for the moment.
now... the universe: is it orderly? is there chaos in it? are all events and conditions in the universe pre-determined by existing conditions?
and... what is it made of? is there more to it than the physical aspects? does it contain more than the familiar matter\energy?
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silversoul7
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2018030 - 10/17/03 03:32 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
now... the universe: is it orderly? is there chaos in it? are all events and conditions in the universe pre-determined by existing conditions?
Orderly? Compared to what?
Quote:
and... what is it made of? is there more to it than the physical aspects? does it contain more than the familiar matter\energy?
The universe if far more complex than any mortal mind can contemplate.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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DoctorJ
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2018035 - 10/17/03 03:34 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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order in the universe?
I suppose its all about frame of reference.
maybe the universe looks orderly to us because we choose to see it that way. (read some stuff on the anthropological principle, too)
our perspective is very limited. I wouldn't make a decision either way without more data.
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peace, pot, and microdot!
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: silversoul7]
#2018036 - 10/17/03 03:35 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Orderly? Compared to what?
are there random or chaotic events and conditions?
The universe if far more complex than any mortal mind can contemplate.
fair enough. we'll leave this one blank for now...
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silversoul7
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 Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2018039 - 10/17/03 03:35 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
mushmaster said:
Orderly? Compared to what?
are there random or chaotic events and conditions?
Both
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: DoctorJ]
#2018041 - 10/17/03 03:36 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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the question about order is asking whether or not the universe contains randomness.
are all conditions the result of preceding conditions?
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: silversoul7]
#2018045 - 10/17/03 03:37 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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ah... what are they?
what conditions occur independently of any previous conditions?
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silversoul7
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2018066 - 10/17/03 03:45 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, when you put it that way, I guess there aren't any. Everything has a cause, and everything has an effect.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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DoctorJ
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2018067 - 10/17/03 03:46 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
are all conditions the result of preceding conditions?
Until they figure out exactly what caused the big bang, and what (if anything) happened or existed before the big bang, this is a toughie to answer.
Heisenberg, Relativity, Godel's Incompleteness theorem, and the second law of thermodynamics all seem to suggest chaos is a possibility.
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peace, pot, and microdot!
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silversoul7
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: DoctorJ]
#2018070 - 10/17/03 03:48 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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I have heard speculation that the big bang was the result of a previous universe collapsing upon itself.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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DoctorJ
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: silversoul7]
#2018077 - 10/17/03 03:51 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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thats just what it is: speculation.
we have no way of knowing what happened before the big bang. how do you build a chronology of events when there is no time?
time is an intrinsic property of the universe. before the universe, there was no time.
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peace, pot, and microdot!
Edited by DoctorJ (10/17/03 03:52 PM)
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: silversoul7]
#2018080 - 10/17/03 03:52 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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so... if all present conditions are determined by previous conditions (a discussion about the nature of Time, focused on this idea, could be interesting...) all future events are determined by existing ones. basically... the future is already determined. it is contained in the present...
but wait... what of free will? if it exists to any extent at all, and is anything more than just an illusion, wouldn't that contradict with the idea that all conditions result from and are determined by previous conditions?
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: DoctorJ]
#2018082 - 10/17/03 03:53 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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on the big bang:
what is nothing?
nothing is something.
before there was something, was there nothing?
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DoctorJ
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2018085 - 10/17/03 03:53 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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If the furure was pre determined, we would all make millions on the stock market
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peace, pot, and microdot!
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silversoul7
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: ]
#2018090 - 10/17/03 03:56 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Well, here's the most simple answer I can give you: I don't know, and neither does anyone else.
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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire
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DoctorJ
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: DoctorJ]
#2018091 - 10/17/03 03:56 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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Quote:
what is nothing?
nothing is something.
before there was something, was there nothing?
In order to see the universe objectively, you would have to be outside of it. Is there an outside of all that is and ever shall be? Is there an "edge" of the universe? Lik, if I go far enough in my spaceship, will I eventully reach a sign that says "The End: Here there be dragons"?
you're giving me a headache again, mm 
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peace, pot, and microdot!
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Anonymous
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Re: science, chaos, predictability, humans. [Re: DoctorJ]
#2018094 - 10/17/03 03:57 PM (9 years, 7 months ago) |
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yes. if it is true that all conditions are determined by previous conditions, and if we had total awareness of all present conditions, and total understanding of the mechanisms by which these conditions result in future conditions, we could indeed predict the future.
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