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 Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,404
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 10 hours, 54 minutes
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 Re: monopolies...  [Re: Phred]
#1799494 - 08/10/03 10:18 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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What monopolies exist today because govenrment intervention?
And by intervention do you include Patent and trademark laws?
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 iglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
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Re: monopolies... [Re: Phred]
#1799514 - 08/10/03 10:27 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said:
What monopolies exist today because govenrment intervention?
The post office. Cable companies. Garbage collection companies. Water companies. Electric companies (depending on the state). Natural gas companies.
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Autonomous said:
The post office. Cable companies. Garbage collection companies. Water companies. Electric companies (depending on the state). Natural gas companies.
In other words, "natural monopolies". Those industries where it's tremendously wasteful to have duplication. I mean, it would be silly to run 5 cables into your home because there's 5 cable companies. Most people agree that natural monopolies are ok, provided the Government does step in to ensure they don't overprice.
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Baby_Hitler
Anarcho-Technologist
Registered: 03/06/02
Posts: 21,404
Loc: To the limit!
Last seen: 10 hours, 54 minutes
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What is the word for when a huge company puts pressure on other companies to help them kill another company?
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: monopolies... [Re: Cornholio]
#1799851 - 08/11/03 12:23 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cornholio said:
In other words, "natural monopolies". Those industries where it's tremendously wasteful to have duplication.
Phone companies used to be considered 'natural monopolies' in the U.S. However, since deregulation we have seen rates drop to 10ths or even 100ths of what they were before (adjusted for monetary inflation). Usually, it is established companies that have pushed for such protection of their economic turf as 'natural monopolies' to prevent new and innovative competitors from offering better service at a lower price.
Quote:
I mean, it would be silly to run 5 cables into your home because there's 5 cable companies.
What is silly is assuming that you would have 5 cables running into your house if there were competition.
Quote:
Most people agree that natural monopolies are ok, provided the Government does step in to ensure they don't overprice.
Ah, argumentum ad populum or, as my mother used to say, "If everyone jumped off a cliff would that make it the smart thing to do."
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
Baby_Hitler said:
What is the word for when a huge company puts pressure on other companies to help them kill another company?
Hmm, I don't know. But there are words to describe what huge or established companies get governments to do to help them kill competition... such as 'regulation,' 'occupation licensing,' 'recognition of a natural monopoly,' 'fees,' or 'permits.' These are usually accompanied by such things as 'permitting of grandfatherd facilities,' 'grandfathered status,' 'grandfatherd sources,' 'grandfather clauses,' or 'prohibition of ex-post facto laws.'
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
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It's not my definition of monopoly that you do not understand
Yes it is. I've given you the dictionary definition of a monopoly which you appear to reject in favour of your own definition.
A true MONOpoly that has lasted more than the length of time a patent is in effect that was NOT aided or abetted by the government in some way.
Who says? The dictionary certainly doesn't.
Microsoft is NOT a monopoly
Incidentally by the standard definition of monopoly - A monopoly is by definition a situation in which a single company owns all or nearly all of the market for a given type of product or service... microsoft would clearly appear to be a monopoly.
Could you give us just one example of an important area of human life - food, water, power that you consider isn't a monopoly or cartel? Perhaps this will help us understand what you mean by your own personal and unique definition of the word monopoly.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Quote:
Autonomous said:
Phone companies used to be considered 'natural monopolies' in the U.S. However, since deregulation we have seen rates drop to 10ths or even 100ths of what they were before (adjusted for monetary inflation). Usually, it is established companies that have pushed for such protection of their economic turf as 'natural monopolies' to prevent new and innovative competitors from offering better service at a lower price.
Prices have plummeted allright, but not because of "new and innovative competitors". They plummeted because too many telecom companies were in the market and supply greatly exceeded demand. Dozens of telecom companies have recently declared bankruptcy, over 1/2 million jobs were lost, and over $2 TRILLION (not a typo) dollars in market value were lost. While I'm not saying this is because of deregulation, I'm saying that deregulation wasn't necessarily a good thing for a natural monopoly.
Quote:
What is silly is assuming that you would have 5 cables running into your house if there were competition.
So if you owned the cable running through a neighborhood, you would share it with your competitors and let them profit off of it??? I wouldn't!
Quote:
"Most people agree that natural monopolies are ok, provided the Government does step in to ensure they don't overprice."
Ah, argumentum ad populum or, as my mother used to say, "If everyone jumped off a cliff would that make it the smart thing to do."
I love it when people understand logical arguments. Fair enough, ignore the "Most people agree that" in my statement above. I already explained why they are ok (because duplication of resources would be tremendously wasteful).
Edit: Natural monopolies are the only type of monopolies I think should exist, and only with Government monitoring/intervention.
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Edited by Cornholio (08/11/03 05:33 AM)
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 24,881
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: monopolies... [Re: Cornholio]
#1800656 - 08/11/03 05:38 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
What is silly is assuming that you would have 5 cables running into your house if there were competition.
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So if you owned the cable running through a neighborhood, you would share it with your competitors and let them profit off of it??? I wouldn't!
He's got you on this one (and others)....
That would be 5 cables running down the street, not into your house.
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
That would be 5 cables running down the street, not into your house.
Ok, still wasteful.
Quote:
He's got you on this one (and others)....
Cheap shot. Back it up, BITCH! 
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luvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?
Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 24,881
Loc: Lost In Space
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Re: monopolies... [Re: Cornholio]
#1800686 - 08/11/03 05:55 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ok, still wasteful.
True, but still not 5 cables into your house.
Quote:
Cheap shot. Back it up, BITCH!
I guess I could copy his posts and paste them here, but instead I'll just say to re-read them. 
And if you can't find them, remember.... absence of a post isn't proof it doesn't exist. 
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“In politics, few talents are as richly rewarded as the ability to convince parasites that they are victims. Welfare states on both sides of the Atlantic have discovered that largesse to losers does not reduce their hostility to society, but only increases it. Far from producing gratitude, generosity is seen as an admission of guilt, and the reparations as inadequate compensation for injustices – leading to worsening behavior by the recipients.
Thomas Sowell
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Cornholio
A liberal guy(on hiatus)
Registered: 01/13/03
Posts: 845
Loc: Austin, TX
Last seen: 9 years, 6 months
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Quote:
luvdemshrooms said:
And if you can't find them, remember.... absence of a post isn't proof it doesn't exist.
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: monopolies... [Re: Xlea321]
#1800888 - 08/11/03 09:16 AM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Alex123, I am requesting an example of a monopoly that came into being and has existed under the criteria which I listed and explained. Your inability to understand this request has NOTHING to do with the definition of the term monopoly - I am not disputing the standard dictionary definition in my request, just (again) asking for an example of one that has come into existence and been maintained without government or criminal intervention in the market.
I at first thought your inability to understand this was feigned, now I am not so sure. I will not engage in any further attempts at what appears to be a futile effort - getting you to understand this simple request.
One verifiable example please. If you are unable to come up with one, you could just do what DoctorJ did (admit it).
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
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I am not disputing the standard dictionary definition in my request, just (again) asking for an example of one that has come into existence..
So why use the word monopoly when you are talking about something completely different? Seeing as everything important to human existence is likely to have had some government involvement at some time or other what exactly is your point? Are you denying corporate monopoly of the water supply is a monopoly because the government had a hand in the water supply at some time?
I at first thought your inability to understand this was feigned, now I am not so sure.
No, it isn't feigned. You are using the word monopoly to mean something entirely different to what it actually means. I am sure you would agree that is very difficult to understand.
One verifiable example please
Did you read Gerns posts on the first page?
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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iglou
enthusiast
Registered: 03/08/02
Posts: 295
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Re: monopolies... [Re: Xlea321]
#1801308 - 08/11/03 12:52 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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from merriam-webster dictionary (www.m-w.com)
Main Entry: mo?nop?o?ly
Pronunciation: m&-'n?-p(&-)lE
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -lies
Etymology: Latin monopolium, from Greek monopOlion, from mon- + pOlein to sell
Date: 1534
1 : exclusive ownership through legal privilege, command of supply, or concerted action
2 : exclusive possession or control
3 : a commodity controlled by one party
4 : one that has a monopoly
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Re: monopolies... [Re: Xlea321]
#1801404 - 08/11/03 01:32 PM (9 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Alex123 said:
I at first thought your inability to understand this was feigned, now I am not so sure.
No, it isn't feigned.
This is now obvious. Since you are incapable of understanding I will now terminate my dialogue with you within this thread. Good day.
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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Xlea321
Stranger
Registered: 02/26/01
Posts: 9,134
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Yes,I am unable to understand your personal and unique definition of the word monopoly. A definition that doesn't exist anywhere but your head.
Sorry.
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Don't worry, B. Caapi
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GernBlanston
unintended sideeffect
Registered: 05/28/03
Posts: 841
Loc: In my pants
Last seen: 1 year, 1 month
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Quote:
Autonomous said:
This is now obvious. Since you are incapable of understanding I will now terminate my dialogue with you within this thread. Good day.
There are few people who are incapable of understanding a given point, outside of those with actual brain deficiencies.
I find that the case is actually that most people are incapable of efficiently making their point. If you are unable to eloqute the point you are trying to make in such a way that others understand you, if not necessarily agree, then I find that fault almost invariably lies with the point maker, not the point getter.
You have, however, been eloquent enough to be added to my "pompous, self-important ass" list... so there's at least something you have going for you, eh?
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There is no flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people.
-- Howard Zinn
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Autonomous
MysteriousStranger
Registered: 05/10/02
Posts: 901
Loc: U.S.S.A.
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Quote:
GernBlanston said:
You have, however, been eloquent enough to be added to my "pompous, self-important ass" list... so there's at least something you have going for you, eh?
Well, how about you? Can you come up with a verifiable example or will you only resort to name calling?
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"In religion and politics people's beliefs and convictions are in almost every case gotten at second-hand, and without examination."
-- Mark Twain
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