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 Rev. Morton
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 6,711
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 Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate 
#16164040 - 05/01/12 05:45 AM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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This is new... check out Alpert's face when Leary says, "you use the word God." 
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c0sm0nautt
 
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,027
Loc: NY
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Rev. Morton]
#16165969 - 05/01/12 04:07 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Seems to me Leary projected his own negative connotations he has attached to God. Pretty quirky interview though.
Agreed with what Alpert says about social change coming from the bottom up. Reminded me of a project I want to check started on the Shroomery connected with Change.org.
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
    
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#16165986 - 05/01/12 04:09 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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I saw two egos battling for supremacy. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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 g00ru
the kava crow
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Rev. Morton]
#16166336 - 05/01/12 05:18 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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your knew avatar is maximum ridiculousness, i love it 
great find 
Ram Das tore him a new one imo
Edited by g00ru (05/01/12 05:42 PM)
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 Kickle
A Dying Hope
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Rev. Morton]
#16166917 - 05/01/12 07:18 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Mr. Middle said:
This is new... check out Alpert's face when Leary says, "you use the word God."
How much energy does Leary have here? My goodness! He just starts talking about anything and he gets the crowd rolling right along with him. The right man for change indeed. Could have been a real bad dude and instead he more or less wasted his life fighting the good fight.
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usulpsychonaut
Hungry Ghost
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Kickle]
#16167043 - 05/01/12 07:44 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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I'll side with Leary here. Everyone is welcome to recreate their own version of Christianity, but the christians continue to torment and damage their kids with their institutions and the missionaries still force their evil hand in non-western countries, all in the name of christ. Paganism is freedom, christianity is oppression. Those of us who know of the pot smoking, mushroom munching Jesus would all be rounded up and burnt on a large fire by these christians if they could. Everything is war.
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In every winter there's a different cold
in every winter I feel so old
so very old as the night
so very old as the dreadful cold
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g00ru
the kava crow
Registered: 08/09/07
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 everything isn't war
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16167075 - 05/01/12 07:48 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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On some level it is. A war for life.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,027
Loc: NY
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And what does any of that have to do with Alpert's use of Jesus, the mushroom-munching Jesus?
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Kickle]
#16168151 - 05/01/12 11:17 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
On some level it is. A war for life.
a struggle for life maybe, the game of life maybe. There's no need for murder which is what war implies to me 
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Kickle
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16168220 - 05/01/12 11:30 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Everything I eat has to be killed first but we justify this. Justifying killing is big component of war.
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Icelander
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Kickle]
#16168395 - 05/02/12 12:00 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Your eyes are open lad.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Kickle
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Icelander]
#16168459 - 05/02/12 12:12 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Ut oh.
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Kickle]
#16168536 - 05/02/12 12:24 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Everything I eat has to be killed first but we justify this. Justifying killing is big component of war.
well, you could be a vegetarian. and there's a difference between killing and war...even in a peaceful society, killings might still occur, but the total mechanized warfare that we see today (and the attitudes that come with it) would be beautifully absent.
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Kickle
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16168640 - 05/02/12 12:41 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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I see mechanized war on animal and plant life alike. Stopping killing in one regard could be seen as a step in the right direction I suppose, but if that's really what is valued then it ultimately leads to the Jains path of eating only the fruit which has died naturally.
Yum, half-rotted fruit on a good day.
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Kickle]
#16168650 - 05/02/12 12:43 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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yeah well Jains are pretty legit and awesome. Don't get me wrong, I'm not above a little warfare, I just thought it was a little dramatic to say that everything is war.
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Kickle
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16168663 - 05/02/12 12:45 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Even the Jains are at war IMO.
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g00ru
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Kickle]
#16168779 - 05/02/12 01:11 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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How so? They live a nonviolent lifestyle.
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Kickle
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16168801 - 05/02/12 01:15 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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They're at war with their human nature, sometimes going so far as to starve their body and killing themselves and at the least causing suffering for their body.
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g00ru
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Kickle]
#16168886 - 05/02/12 01:34 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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I hear ya, they live a radically ascetic lifestyle that I assume puts their bodies in a lot of pain and danger. Some might say it's overkill.
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Kupo
Kupop!
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Kickle]
#16168910 - 05/02/12 01:40 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Killing happens regardless of whether we like it or not.
Vegetarians are still taking life. Even those beegan folks are murderers of my lovely greens.
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Symbols
§✪λⓡɕＨⒶŠƎƦ
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Kupo]
#16169020 - 05/02/12 02:09 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Please tell me someone else sees this in the 2nd video.
2:03 is Leary's comment about the government doing dirty tricks,
2:08 is Alpert's bizarre reaction.
What the hell was that?
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Symbols
§✪λⓡɕＨⒶŠƎƦ
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Symbols]
#16169030 - 05/02/12 02:12 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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He breathes differently, looks away from Leary and then down, swallows hard, and just suddenly changes his demeanor entirely. This suggests his mind was processing something uncomfortable - possibly a memory - and I'm curious what it was.
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Rev. Morton
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 6,711
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Symbols]
#16169070 - 05/02/12 02:22 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Symbols said:
Please tell me someone else sees this in the 2nd video.
2:03 is Leary's comment about the government doing dirty tricks,
2:08 is Alpert's bizarre reaction.
What the hell was that?
I noticed that too. They are both obviously very high.
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g00ru
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Rev. Morton]
#16169190 - 05/02/12 03:00 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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I think he was insinuating that Tim was getting the raw end of the deal, and he was getting the good end
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Rev. Morton
Registered: 07/12/99
Posts: 6,711
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16169220 - 05/02/12 03:11 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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I though it was more 'Woah, watch what you say, Tim."
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Raven Gnosis
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16169222 - 05/02/12 03:12 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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... How the hell was this a debate?
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It took a moment to sink in, but there it was on the damp gravestone, my name. I wiped the mud and rain from these etchings in stone and stood in the dimming late autumn light, wondering what this meant for myself.
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g00ru
the kava crow
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cause there was an audience i guess. Ram Das said something about "it's the 80s" I think he was referring to what you're saying, if that makes any sense
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usulpsychonaut
Hungry Ghost
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16169505 - 05/02/12 05:13 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
oojijimoo said:
everything isn't war
oojijimoo be more informed.
Wikipedia;
Quote:
War as allegory
There are many who regard the story of the Gita as an allegory; Swami Nikhilananda, for example, takes Arjuna as an allegory of Ātman, Krishna as an allegory of Brahman, Arjuna's chariot as the body, etc.[12]
Mohandas Karamchand Gandhi, in his commentary on the Gita,[13] interpreted the battle as "an allegory in which the battlefield is the soul and Arjuna, man's higher impulses struggling against evil."[14] Swami Vivekananda also said that the first discourse in the Gita related to war can be taken allegorically.[15] Vivekananda further remarked, "this Kurukshetra War is only an allegory. When we sum up its esoteric significance, it means the war which is constantly going on within man between the tendencies of good and evil."[8]
In Sri Aurobindo's view, Krishna was a historical figure, but his significance in the Gita is as a "symbol of the divine dealings with humanity",[16] while Arjuna typifies a "struggling human soul."[17] However, Aurobindo rejects the interpretation that the Gita, and the Mahabharata by extension, is "an allegory of the inner life, and has nothing to do with our outward human life and actions":[17]
“ ...That is a view which the general character and the actual language of the epic does not justify and, if pressed, would turn the straightforward philosophical language of the Gita into a constant, laborious and somewhat puerile mystification....the Gita is written in plain terms and professes to solve the great ethical and spiritual difficulties which the life of man raises, and it will not do to go behind this plain language and thought and wrest them to the service of our fancy. But there is this much of truth in the view, that the setting of the doctrine though not symbolical, is certainly typical...
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In every winter there's a different cold
in every winter I feel so old
so very old as the night
so very old as the dreadful cold
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usulpsychonaut
Hungry Ghost
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#16169536 - 05/02/12 05:37 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautti said:
And what does any of that have to do with Alpert's use of Jesus, the mushroom-munching Jesus?
Leary was pushing paganism and is suspiscious of monotheistic sounding words. Dass is not making enough effort to put monotheistic language into a clearly pagan context. Why does this matter? because paganism is freedom and monotheism is genocide.
Its all very well for the psychedelic community to re-imagine christianity into a pantheist, polytheist and liberating spirituality but why use the language of the ego religion? What does that achieve other than confuse people?
I partly get Dass, as I am currently creating a peaceful, liberating, psychedelic nationalist dream and it pretty much subverts the language of the ego hooligan, politic types. But there needs to be a real effort to present the language/symbols in a way that people will get that its something different. I would expect a fair amount of aggressive resistance from ego hooligans.
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In every winter there's a different cold
in every winter I feel so old
so very old as the night
so very old as the dreadful cold
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,027
Loc: NY
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Jesus said some pretty cool things, especially if you get into the Gnostic teachings like the Gospel of Thomas. My point is people who get upset with the use of Jesus are projecting their own baggage onto the words. That's your own problem. Are the Christian mystics throughout the ages, Jesus included, genocidal maniacs? I mean come on, the world is not that black and white.
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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Symbols
§✪λⓡɕＨⒶŠƎƦ
Registered: 03/13/12
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#16170105 - 05/02/12 10:47 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Any sage, mystic, or religious guru who claims to have any one version of truth will be divisive by their very nature.
And spending the mental resources to convince others of Oneness is ironic, if not infinitely laborious.
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psychotropicwhale
Cetacean
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Rev. Morton]
#16170111 - 05/02/12 10:49 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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I like the 911, 2012, and other unrelated tags. Cool debate anyhow.
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,027
Loc: NY
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Symbols]
#16170118 - 05/02/12 10:52 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Symbols said:
Any sage, mystic, or religious guru who claims to have any one version of truth will be divisive by their very nature.
And they wouldn't make that claim.
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
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Symbols
§✪λⓡɕＨⒶŠƎƦ
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: c0sm0nautt]
#16170190 - 05/02/12 11:18 AM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
c0sm0nautt said:
Quote:
Symbols said:
Any sage, mystic, or religious guru who claims to have any one version of truth will be divisive by their very nature.
And they wouldn't make that claim.
True sages wouldn't, no. Rumi, for instance, laughed and loved the whole game. Though I've heard more than once in lectures and books about "right paths and wrong paths." And shaking the no-no stick is in general at the heart of Buddhist precepts.
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Hmmm well the gita is one story, and that's just one interpretation of it 
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Icelander
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16170518 - 05/02/12 12:55 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
oojijimoo said:
yeah well Jains are pretty legit and awesome.
.
Especially when they starve themselves to death in their attempt to do no harm. True story for many of them.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Icelander]
#16170692 - 05/02/12 01:24 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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well that does suck but there are some successful ones also
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Icelander
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16170770 - 05/02/12 01:42 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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but which are which?
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Raven Gnosis
Born Dying
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Posts: 902
Loc: The forest floor
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Icelander]
#16171284 - 05/02/12 03:21 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
but which are which?
My thoughts exactly.
Isn't it a goal in Jainism to generate as little 'negative' karma as humanly possible by not eating any life forms, which is the reasoning behind starving oneself to death?
Wouldn't that make them successful in their goal(s) according to their system of thought and understanding? 
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It took a moment to sink in, but there it was on the damp gravestone, my name. I wiped the mud and rain from these etchings in stone and stood in the dimming late autumn light, wondering what this meant for myself.
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deff
just relax
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i think they also see starving to death as a means to burn off negative karma prior to dying
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Icelander
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: deff]
#16171474 - 05/02/12 04:11 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Sound perfectly reasonable to me. 
Except maybe for the fact that they are KILLING themselves. 
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deff
just relax
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Icelander]
#16171483 - 05/02/12 04:13 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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well not really, they're simply not eating. the body kills itself through metabolizing etc - killing implies some action i think, whereas this is a lack of action 
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Icelander
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: deff]
#16171496 - 05/02/12 04:16 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Then they shouldn't walk or drink water or talk or breath cause all those things likely kill micro organisms.
Man that spirituality stuff is serious business.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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deff
just relax
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: Icelander]
#16171518 - 05/02/12 04:21 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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well they often wear masks so they don't breath in insects and they sweep the ground in front of them while the walk so they don't step on any. and during the three month rainy season, when insects are all over, they traditionally go into retreat - but you're right about the microorganisms! you can't blame them for trying tho...
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Icelander
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: deff]
#16171715 - 05/02/12 04:59 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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I can't? You don't know me very well then.
Personally I consider it mental. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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g00ru
the kava crow
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remember this guy? he's a jain
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deff
just relax
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: g00ru]
#16172355 - 05/02/12 07:29 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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according to his wiki page he's actually a devotee of a hindu goddess 
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usulpsychonaut
Hungry Ghost
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: deff]
#16172429 - 05/02/12 07:40 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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So the language we use is just preference and taste. I did start using Joshua's name for a little while, it just felt wrong so I switched beck to Freya. The church and its language was never enough for me.
--------------------
In every winter there's a different cold
in every winter I feel so old
so very old as the night
so very old as the dreadful cold
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Posts: 17,419
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Last seen: 15 seconds
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Re: Ram Dass / Tim Leary Debate [Re: deff]
#16173814 - 05/02/12 11:19 PM (1 year, 20 days ago) |
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Quote:
deff said:
according to his wiki page he's actually a devotee of a hindu goddess
ah cool. Well, hopefully there are some Jains out there who are thriving,
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