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 EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,763
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 Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... 
#16155054 - 04/29/12 01:37 PM (1 year, 22 days ago) |
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...it would be damning to the claims of righteousness by government & associated business interests (e.g. private contractors) to acknowledge the extent of what occurred? In an interview with The Telegraph in 2009, retired Major Gen. Antonio Taguba said the following about Abu Ghraib...
Quote:
"These pictures show torture, abuse, rape and every indecency.
I am not sure what purpose their release would serve other than a legal one and the consequence would be to imperil our troops, the only protectors of our foreign policy, when we most need them, and British troops who are trying to build security in Afghanistan.
The mere description of these pictures is horrendous enough, take my word for it.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/5395830/Abu-Ghraib-abuse-photos-show-rape.html
In addition to sodomizing of men, women were forced to strip & in some cases were raped and/or sodomized, & even supposedly a male child was raped by a contractor while U.S. military watched, took pictures, and/or filmed. This implicates up to dozens of people who either participated in some way or at least knew about it: U.S. military, U.S. intelligence, & private contractors. Multiple sources had already supported these accounts, and they (at least some of them) were then more or less confirmed by none other than Gen. Taguba in the above.
Yet, no one was prosecuted (let alone convicted) for these crimes. I think the whole thing was a joke, for the crimes which were officially admitted... all low-levels people I think, several discharged dishonorably & 2 or 3 given token sentences of not more than several years incarceration. I find it appalling that rape & sexual assault of the foreigners supposedly being "liberated" go completely unpunished, and I think people all the way up to the top should be severely punished.
No one who claims to believe in democracy, freedom, government accountability, transparency, the rule of law, human rights, etc. can defend this abomination.
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"I did not know then how much was ended. When I look back now from this high hill of my old age, I can still see the butchered women and children lying heaped and scattered all along the crooked gulch as plain as when I saw them with eyes still young. And I can see that something else died there in the bloody mud, and was buried in the blizzard. A people's dream died there. It was a beautiful dream.
And I, to whom so great a vision was given in my youth; you see me now a pitiful old man who has done nothing, for the nation's hoop is broken and scattered. There is no center any longer, and the sacred tree is dead."
- Oglala Lakota medicine man Black Elk, reflecting on the 1890 Wounded Knee massacre
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 Rail_Gun
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 Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#16155078 - 04/29/12 01:45 PM (1 year, 22 days ago) |
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Terrible things happen in war. We're a good people for condemning it at all. In centuries past we would have encouraged it rather than discouraging it.
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 zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,275
Last seen: 43 seconds
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#16155090 - 04/29/12 01:49 PM (1 year, 22 days ago) |
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http://www.uruknet.de/?p=54672
Quote:
Staged photos lifted from porn websites purporting to be images of U.S. troops raping female detainees at Abu Ghraib are again circulating at the height of the torture scandal, discrediting the very real and admitted accounts of rape described in Major General Antonio Taguba’s military report into the Abu Ghraib prison.
Despite the fact that these photos were vehemently discredited and proven to be taken from porn websites when they first emerged in 2004, they are again being erroneously cited as examples of photos showing rape that the Obama administration is blocking from public release - providing debunkers with ammunition to dismiss the validity of the torture scandal altogether.
If they have a case they will get rich. If they don't they won't. I believe there have already been people sent to prison over this.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,763
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: zappaisgod]
#16155122 - 04/29/12 01:58 PM (1 year, 22 days ago) |
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Fiction that may have been presented as fact is irrelevant. No such photos have yet to be released (along with no such prosecutions for these crimes that I am aware of), but according to Gen. Taguba they exist, which would corroborate prior claims from multiple persons. If someone from government and/or contracted by government committed or was otherwise an accomplice to rape and/or sodomy overseas, they should be punished just like they would be domestically in civilian courts. For this not to occur is a grievous miscarriage of justice & makes a mockery of U.S. claims about what it stands for in the global theater.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#16155378 - 04/29/12 03:19 PM (1 year, 22 days ago) |
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The Taguba report was slammed as fiction several years ago. Either there are new pictures or there are not new pictures. Every time someone presents obviously phony evidence it serves to discredit the entire claim. If you got something, post it. If not, piss off.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,853
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#16155386 - 04/29/12 03:20 PM (1 year, 22 days ago) |
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I don't think anything should be swept under the rug ever but I'm pretty much alone in that belief. If all this is true I'm not surprised.
People seem to have the strange impression that in the pressures of war and the people who are often attracted to warfare are going to be perfect gentlemen like in the movies.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,763
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: zappaisgod]
#16155676 - 04/29/12 04:40 PM (1 year, 22 days ago) |
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Ok, so you are saying that the man (and several other sources) is lying. Glad that's cleared up Moreover, you taunting someone to post them is just stupid; such photos and/or videos (if they exist, which according to the former Major Gen & several other sources, such crimes occurred & there is some documentation of them, if it has not already been destroyed) are in secure, government hands. Thus, no "dissident" is currently capable of releasing them.
Your taunt is further absurd because civil liberties groups have been in legal battles for years with the Obush administrations, but not surprisingly, big government spends DoJ (i.e. taxpayer) resources to block transparency & accountability.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,763
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: Icelander]
#16155689 - 04/29/12 04:45 PM (1 year, 22 days ago) |
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Yeah, I think it's naive not to think that female detainees were sexually abused. Both inherently due to the situation (younger males gives absolute power over detainees in an environment w/dismal oversight), and the fact of what they were doing to male detainees. You think straight men who force male detainees to get naked & masturbate for amusement aren't going to rape female detainees? Pathetic that this shit has been more or less hid, and quite frankly, a lot of Americans (and not just the rabid warmongering right-wing) care more about sports & pop culture than issues of fundamental justice such as this.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,275
Last seen: 43 seconds
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#16155867 - 04/29/12 05:29 PM (1 year, 22 days ago) |
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Are you gonna back up your shit or not?
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,853
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#16156143 - 04/29/12 06:27 PM (1 year, 22 days ago) |
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Quote:
EntheogenicPeace said:
Yeah, I think it's naive not to think that female detainees were sexually abused. Both inherently due to the situation (younger males gives absolute power over detainees in an environment w/dismal oversight), and the fact of what they were doing to male detainees. You think straight men who force male detainees to get naked & masturbate for amusement aren't going to rape female detainees? Pathetic that this shit has been more or less hid, and quite frankly, a lot of Americans (and not just the rabid warmongering right-wing) care more about sports & pop culture than issues of fundamental justice such as this.
War is hell, that's why I stayed home. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Not Quite Social
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 1,336
Loc: Midwest
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: Icelander]
#16156695 - 04/29/12 08:36 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Here's the beginning of the article Entheo linked:
Quote:
Photographs of alleged prisoner abuse which Barack Obama is attempting to censor include images of apparent rape and sexual abuse, it has emerged.
At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.
Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.
Photographs of alleged prisoner abuse which Barack Obama is attempting to censor include images of apparent rape and sexual abuse, it has emerged.
At least one picture shows an American soldier apparently raping a female prisoner while another is said to show a male translator raping a male detainee.
Further photographs are said to depict sexual assaults on prisoners with objects including a truncheon, wire and a phosphorescent tube.
Another apparently shows a female prisoner having her clothing forcibly removed to expose her breasts.
Detail of the content emerged from Major General Antonio Taguba, the former army officer who conducted an inquiry into the Abu Ghraib jail in Iraq.
Allegations of rape and abuse were included in his 2004 report but the fact there were photographs was never revealed. He has now confirmed their existence in an interview with the Daily Telegraph.
Zappa asked Entheo to "back up his shit" ...?
Follow the link! Read the words! The Major General who investigated this matter attested to the existance of photos of US soldiers raping prisoners. And, NO ... No trial has been publicly acknowledged regarding any soldier raping a prisoner at Abu Graib. We had Lindy England giving the thumbs up and walking a naked guy on a leash. She's in prison, but where are these rapists now? This stuff is not excusable, should not be forgotten as old news (especially since it was not fully disclosed and dealt with), and should not be swept under the rug.
Really, Zappa, I think you just don't like to hear bad news about disgraceful vile behavior attributed to American soldiers. Burying your head in the sand doesn't mean it didn't happen. It gets uncomfortably weird when you try to take the spotlight off the guilt of rapists just because of your political opinions/nationalism.
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The People's History
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: zappaisgod]
#16156796 - 04/29/12 09:02 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Are you gonna back up your shit or not?
What a dumbass comment. In the first post I cited the man's own words. When later asked about them (in a Salon.com article with Mark Benjamin), he stated that he was not misquoted.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
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Posts: 42,275
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: zappaisgod]
#16157215 - 04/29/12 10:32 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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We have been well aware of what Taguba said for several years
Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The Taguba report was slammed as fiction several years ago. Either there are new pictures or there are not new pictures. Every time someone presents obviously phony evidence it serves to discredit the entire claim. If you got something, post it. If not, piss off.
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imachavel
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: Rail_Gun]
#16157869 - 04/30/12 12:51 AM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
Rail_Gun said:
Terrible things happen in war. We're a good people for condemning it at all. In centuries past we would have encouraged it rather than discouraging it.
I agree, and also if people don't come forward with what happened to them no one can be fairly prosecuted. It's completely unfair. For people to be prosecuted = facts need to be given. Otherwise it's unfair to expect punishment, it's just not possible
sorry, I got carried away. These people were detainees and were horribly tortured. There was nothing anyone could do for them. I was getting carried away on a previous discussion. Fucking horrible shit man. Horrible. Probably no punishment will done to people who have committed these horrible crimes.
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Edited by imachavel (04/30/12 12:57 AM)
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imachavel
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: zappaisgod]
#16157932 - 04/30/12 01:06 AM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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Quote:
zappaisgod said:
The Taguba report was slammed as fiction several years ago. Either there are new pictures or there are not new pictures. Every time someone presents obviously phony evidence it serves to discredit the entire claim. If you got something, post it. If not, piss off.
this look fake to you?:
http://i.telegraph.co.uk/multimedia/archive/00611/news-graphics-2006-_611733a.jpg
http://merryabla64.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/us-torture-iraq.jpg
http://williambowles.info/ini/gifs/ghraib_4.jpg
http://www.sfbayview.com/wp-content/uploads/abu-ghraib-guards-naked-prisoners.jpg
http://www.uruknet.info/pic.php?f=abu-ghraib-series-3-06-30.jpg
well zappa, maybe they stopped doing this to people. I mean in all fairness they said they would stop, who could not trust the marines words that they would stop torturing, beating, raping people for no reason? Would guys like that lie? That is horrible abuse, I guess no hospital could really help huh?
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,275
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: imachavel]
#16160558 - 04/30/12 04:07 PM (1 year, 21 days ago) |
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People went to jail for those acts, as far as I know, since there is no attribution. I didn't see any sodomy. So what we have is a mixture of nonsense from EP that there were pictures of sodomy and that it got swept under the rug.
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,763
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: zappaisgod]
#16177657 - 05/03/12 07:21 PM (1 year, 17 days ago) |
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Let's see, the acknowledgement of a career military man/conservative made in the course of arguing that the photos not be released, or the incoherent posts of someone who is unable to grasp straightforward information when they don't want to believe it. That's an easy one. For the last time, if you aren't going to read/respond to the man's own words (and call him a liar if you are so inclined, & explain why a career U.S. military man would make slanderous allegations of the most serious degree against those in uniform), then my description of you is spot on.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#16180803 - 05/04/12 10:44 AM (1 year, 17 days ago) |
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Lots of military people said Taguba was full of shit. This is also old. Do you have anything current? I know he got snowed by fake pictures and I know the ones you presented didn't show any rape or sodomy. So, again, you got anything?
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EntheogenicPeace
Scholar
Registered: 10/04/05
Posts: 3,763
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: zappaisgod]
#16181852 - 05/04/12 03:48 PM (1 year, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Lots of military people said Taguba was full of shit... I know he got snowed by fake pictures...
You know the latter item to be true? Let's see the evidence. Also let's see some examples to support the former claim.
You seem to either be willfully blind due to strong ideological bias, or you simply lack the comprehension to understand that when a career military man, a retired general, makes a statement which if it was false is outrageous slander against the military, that the burden of proof is on you to support your claim the he is either a liar of he was conned. If the latter, then that makes even less sense since it would mean that multiple other people in the military gave him photos that they knew to be false just to make the military look terrible, or they were so incompetent at their jobs that they cannot discern fact from fiction.
Also, since they seized the photos and/or the were voluntarily turned in from U.S. people working at the prison in Iraq, you would also be claiming that these U.S. people randomly happened to have in their possession fictional pornography of actors playing U.S. military & interrogation people raping & perpetrating other forms of sexual abuse against actors playing Iraqi captives. What elaborate conspiracies you will weave to avoid having to take a retired general at his word, when it is entirely sensible given what they were already doing.
Again, you are claiming that people who flagrantly abuse their authority & betray their ethical responsibilities, by deriving enjoyment form forcing men to get naked & doing weird sexual-type things with them, are going to be gentlemen in the presence of a lady. Talk about conservatives not understanding how "the real world" works.
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zappaisgod
horrid asshole
Registered: 02/11/04
Posts: 42,275
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Re: Should rape & sexual assualt be swept under the rug when... [Re: EntheogenicPeace]
#16182008 - 05/04/12 04:27 PM (1 year, 17 days ago) |
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You made specific allegations. Like I said at the beginning, back them up. Do eet.
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