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 White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
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 Seeking and Impermanence 
#15583773 - 12/28/11 06:29 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Everything is constantly changing, and we find this is very difficult to cope with. We want something to call our own. But this is impossible in the constant flux of reality. Then a solution presents itself. If I am a seeker going through the flux, I create some imaginary permanence. I'm on a journey so to speak. This quest becomes the immortality project to use Brecker's terminology. The idea of the quest can be extrapolated over life times. I was an ant last lifetime, I'm White Beard now, and I'll be a Buddha in some future lifetime. But this quest is just my imagination, a vain attempt to make it seem like I actually exist. But when I go to sleep, the quest disappears. How could it have ever existed outside of my imagination then? And sleep is wonderful. Every time I wake up I wish I was still sleeping. So why am I so obsessed in creating permanence, where it cannot be achieved?
The seeking causes the misery, yet the seeking becomes my identity. Strange.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 11 hours, 19 minutes
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Yeah fuck this suffering business. I can unfortunately see how I bring it on myself @ every turn. That type of constant presense was a decision I made but damn sometimes I wonder what and the hell I was thinking. This moment can be almost unbearable at times even when there is nothing at all happening. Go figure.
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r72rock
Learning to Grow
Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Chicago 
Last seen: 22 hours, 9 minutes
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Quote:
White Beard said:
But when I go to sleep, the quest disappears. How could it have ever existed outside of my imagination then? And sleep is wonderful. Every time I wake up I wish I was still sleeping. So why am I so obsessed in creating permanence, where it cannot be achieved?
The seeking causes the misery, yet the seeking becomes my identity. Strange.
I'm the same way with sleep.  It's the most peaceful thing because there's no subject, yet there's still something that perceives nothing.
Pretty weird. If I could stay in a state of permanent existence, it'd for sure be deep sleep. It's so blissful. 
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Refraining from all evil, not clinging to birth and death, working in deep compassion for all sentient beings, respecting those over you and pitying those below you, without any detesting or desiring, worrying or lamentation - this is what is called Buddha. Do not search beyond it. - Dōgen
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
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Re: Seeking and Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#15585372 - 12/29/11 01:54 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Yeah fuck this suffering business. I can unfortunately see how I bring it on myself @ every turn. That type of constant presense was a decision I made but damn sometimes I wonder what and the hell I was thinking. This moment can be almost unbearable at times even when there is nothing at all happening. Go figure.
Yeah, I see I go up chasing some imaginary goose time and time again, and I have no way of stopping it, because if I seek away to stop seeking something, then that no works for obvious reasons.
What do you mean this moment can be unbearable? I find when I'm actually present, there is no one that's finding it unbearable. Perhaps that's what it's pointing to. Presence is unbearable by anyone, and any attempt to bear it and claim it as my own only creates suffering.
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 quinn
medicine woman
Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 4,770
Loc: (usually) above sea level
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do you ever wonder what it would be like just to let yourself seek rather than worrying whether it is a bad thing?
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if only i
had learnt to count
i might know more
about a larger amount
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc:
Last seen: 10 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: Seeking and Impermanence [Re: quinn]
#15585432 - 12/29/11 02:26 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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I've done that a lot. I feel like most of my life I've been seeking one thing or another. I'm only now realizing that it causes me suffering as I always want something different rather then what's going on right now. I'm tired of chasing shit around and would much rather chill out.
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
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Last seen: 10 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: Seeking and Impermanence [Re: quinn]
#15585436 - 12/29/11 02:27 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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How was your trip btw?
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quinn
medicine woman
Registered: 01/02/10
Posts: 4,770
Loc: (usually) above sea level
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i know what you mean.
idk man. i guess i am in the same boat. i see a very serious option as moving away and picking apples or something for an indefinite amount of time until i am like free of all my neuroses... another option is just trying to enjoy my life while i have it 
Quote:
How was your trip btw?
thanks for asking. its good to be back... the trip was pretty awesome. 'excessive' was the word that kept popping into my mind in america. london was more my scene, people there are (slightly) less insane, more relaxed and miserable and the old feel is nice too. anyway i hafta run for dinner but i will probably post more about it later
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if only i
had learnt to count
i might know more
about a larger amount
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 2,664
Loc:
Last seen: 1 month, 23 days
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Re: Seeking and Impermanence [Re: quinn]
#15585800 - 12/29/11 05:37 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Everything is constantly changing, and we find this is very difficult to cope with. We want something to call our own. But this is impossible in the constant flux of reality. Then a solution presents itself. If I am a seeker going through the flux, I create some imaginary permanence. I'm on a journey so to speak. This quest becomes the immortality project to use Brecker's terminology. The idea of the quest can be extrapolated over life times. I was an ant last lifetime, I'm White Beard now, and I'll be a Buddha in some future lifetime. But this quest is just my imagination, a vain attempt to make it seem like I actually exist. But when I go to sleep, the quest disappears. How could it have ever existed outside of my imagination then? And sleep is wonderful. Every time I wake up I wish I was still sleeping. So why am I so obsessed in creating permanence, where it cannot be achieved?
The seeking causes the misery, yet the seeking becomes my identity. Strange.
This is a mystical explanation based on the teachings of Meher Baba
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When we sleep and lose consciousness we temporarily return to our original state which is also the original state of God, in the "beyond-beyond state of God". It is an unlimited state of existence and can be likened to an infinite shore-less ocean, the ocean is still. It is the sole existence, it is what us men call God, and in this "beyond-beyond state" God exists but he is unconscious of himself, because there is nothing but himself.
Sleep is a state of complete tranquility because the original state of God is complete tranquility. Sleep is necessary to replenish primarily our minds and not our bodies. In order to feel truly refreshed from sleep it is necessary to go unconscious, and hence enter this state.
However what is also necessary is consciousness. The reason being is that God in the beyond-beyond state has a whim to know himself, this whim for God to know himself can be considered the first cause of the creation of the universe.
The whim caused the first consciousness. The first consciousness is finite, it is the opposite of the unlimited, infinite unconscious ocean of which God actually is.
Like us, God needs a mirror to know himself. Since God is the sole existence he needs to project something that is not himself, in order to gain consciousness of himself. So the first form is created, and is incredibly finite.
Consciousness (automatically) went on expanding, and the forms followed. All the way from atoms to man. All because God, or you, wanted to know himself. You seek to know yourself, either consciously or un-consciously.
With evolved consciousness you have experience of the good and bad that come with it. You experience a limited form of bliss as temporary happiness which keep you going. Yet while conscious there is always some friction, as you experience yourself as being limited and finite, which is completely contrary to your reality while asleep, abiding in the unlimited ocean.
The goal of enlightenment is to become one with the unlimited ocean YET retain consciousness.
To do this requires identification not with the world of forms, but the cause of the world of forms, the true self and sole existence, the unlimited ocean of existence.
That ocean has everything within it as it is unlimited, it has infinite knowledge, power and bliss but it is unconscious of them. You cannot gain consciousness of the ocean while immersed in it's shadow. To gain infinite consciousness you have to turn your back and withdraw from the world of forms..
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,003
Loc: 
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Quote:
White Beard said:
The seeking causes the misery, yet the seeking becomes my identity.
Seek your identity
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lolwut
Gone Troppo
Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 2,072
Loc: The Lost Woods
Last seen: 2 hours, 7 minutes
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"Searching for the answer is a lonely quest but the act is liable to bring out your best".
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In old age Diogenes stopped a veteran and asked, “What were you in the last war?”
“Oh, I was only a private,” replied the veteran.
Diogenes rocked as if about to fall. “Ye gods!” he gasped. “At last!” Then after catching his breath he blew out his lantern and went home.
-Osho
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 11 hours, 19 minutes
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Quote:
White Beard said:
What do you mean this moment can be unbearable?
I mean like direct clit stimulation sometimes it can be too much and wiggling and squirming ensues.
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc:
Last seen: 10 hours, 28 minutes
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Re: Seeking and Impermanence [Re: lolwut]
#15586231 - 12/29/11 10:55 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
quinn said:
i know what you mean.
idk man. i guess i am in the same boat. i see a very serious option as moving away and picking apples or something for an indefinite amount of time until i am like free of all my neuroses... another option is just trying to enjoy my life while i have it
Yeah, that's sort of how I feel. Am I suppose to waste the limited time I have here just trying to get into a better emotional state? And picking apples may not even give you that. Such a gamble.
Quote:
soldatheero said:
The goal of enlightenment is to become one with the unlimited ocean YET retain consciousness.
Yeah, that's been my goal for a while. The good feeling of being asleep... but while awake. When I first wake up the feeling that everything is alright lingers for a minute or two, but then always seems to fade.  What can I do.
Quote:
The Chronic said:
Quote:
White Beard said:
The seeking causes the misery, yet the seeking becomes my identity.
Seek your identity
Oh I've been trying. Not sure if it's working. Sometimes it feels like I have a more intimate feeling of just being myself, but I'm unsure if I'm tricking myself with thought or not.
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lolwut said:
"Searching for the answer is a lonely quest but the act is liable to bring out your best".
It's also liable to bring out other things. 
Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
White Beard said:
What do you mean this moment can be unbearable?
I mean like direct clit stimulation sometimes it can be too much and wiggling and squirming ensues.
I never knew you were a girl.
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 10,675
Loc: The Hand
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A girl named Kickle
Couldn't deal with a tickle
In spite of a growing hope
Still, it's a slipper slope
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Don't submit to dogma.
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc:
Last seen: 10 hours, 28 minutes
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deff
just relax
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 7,058
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 1 day, 16 hours
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Re: Seeking and Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#15586549 - 12/29/11 12:44 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
White Beard said:
What do you mean this moment can be unbearable?
I mean like direct clit stimulation sometimes it can be too much and wiggling and squirming ensues.
i've never heard of anything quite like this before... what do you think is causing this unbearableness moment by moment?
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LunarEclipse
Mr. Dogma Free
Registered: 10/31/04
Posts: 10,675
Loc: The Hand
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Don't submit to dogma.
Edited by LunarEclipse (12/29/11 01:14 PM)
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 11 hours, 19 minutes
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Re: Seeking and Impermanence [Re: deff]
#15587788 - 12/29/11 05:37 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
White Beard said:
What do you mean this moment can be unbearable?
I mean like direct clit stimulation sometimes it can be too much and wiggling and squirming ensues.
I never knew you were a girl.
I'm not. But on a related note I still have never figured out how many licks to the center of a tootsie pop.
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deff said:
Quote:
Kickle said:
Quote:
White Beard said:
What do you mean this moment can be unbearable?
I mean like direct clit stimulation sometimes it can be too much and wiggling and squirming ensues.
i've never heard of anything quite like this before... what do you think is causing this unbearableness moment by moment?
what do you get when you mix an elephant and a rhino?
the elliphino
Best guess is being alive.
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deff
just relax
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 7,058
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 1 day, 16 hours
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Re: Seeking and Impermanence [Re: Kickle]
#15587828 - 12/29/11 05:46 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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while you're the only one who understands your experience of course, and usually when people offer advice it's not applicable and is based on their lack of understanding due to their difference in experiences and limited view, etc...
but i find the sensation of unbearableness arises when there's resistance to something. do you think that maybe there's some subtle/subconscious resistance in your being to something? like another layer of letting go that's meeting with some resistance?
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,081
Last seen: 11 hours, 19 minutes
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Re: Seeking and Impermanence [Re: deff]
#15587908 - 12/29/11 06:01 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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there is always resistance
the body is tense against its decay
wanting to be fed and nourished
to feed the flame of life
Here's an example:
I was done with working for the day, came home, did some chores around the house, sat down. At this point I am well fed, warm, and have no tasks to attend to. This is the optimal time to be at ease. But that is not what is present. Instead there is extreme discontent, the kind of discontent that is unbearable. There is no source for this, no thoughts accompanying it. At least not at first. Over time it spurs memories, visions. Sometimes I ground myself back in the physical just to check, other times I just watch this as a movie. All the same the feeling remains. It eventually subsides as all things do and is nothing but yet another memory along the way.
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