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 circastes
Being too serious
 
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 5,668
Loc: 
Last seen: 6 hours, 46 minutes
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 Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings   6
#15560155 - 12/23/11 06:31 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
What say you?
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"Your salvation may lie in a rational apprehension of the present moment."
-Terence McKenna
she said there's good men
that there's God in everyone
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 moonrockmushy
certifiedpoopface
Registered: 07/01/05
Posts: 5,521
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15560205 - 12/23/11 07:00 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
what's wrong with NOT being enlightened?
Consciousness
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crkhd
☾☼☽
Registered: 12/29/08
Posts: 1,911
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 7 hours, 41 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: moonrockmushy] 2
#15560257 - 12/23/11 07:29 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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You can be enlightened AND do all of those things. And with enlightenment there isn't any room for elitism, superiority or weird consciousness.
Game, set, match 
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"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."
"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker
<i AM breath rippling through water|light reflecting to self with thought AM i>
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Buster_Brown
atlatl
Registered: 09/17/11
Posts: 1,673
Last seen: 2 hours, 3 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes] 1
#15560263 - 12/23/11 07:30 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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weird consciousness must be a state of mind that the unhappy or dissatisfied encounter. One way or another I expect the unhappy eventually resume happy, satisfied existences. Until then we are at the mercy of Enlightenment.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,883
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15560268 - 12/23/11 07:32 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
What say you?
I say this is what everyone is doing already. All this "enlightenment" is a smokescreen for what few want to admit are their real motives. Youthful folly.
You're very wrong imo about regular folk having no dread of death however.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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GoreTuzk
Stranger
Registered: 11/19/11
Posts: 129
Last seen: 7 months, 27 days
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Icelander]
#15560375 - 12/23/11 08:15 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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In my opinion, being enlightened simply means that you know two different but interconnected facts: that the you in you is the same as the you in me (meaning: everything and everyone you sense is equally an expression of pure consciousness, but shining through a different filter) and that life isn't something to be taken seriously, but rather it's, like Alan Watts said, "fundamentally playful".
After you've been possessed by a genuine thirst for knowledge that led you to those two conclusions, you can then look at life in a new light because you know that, whether you like it or not, your relationship with the environment is always one that is harmonious, because you are not separated from it.
Some wisdom regarding the upsides of understanding that everything is an illusion and all that exists is the Self:
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 14 hours, 5 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes] 7
#15560405 - 12/23/11 08:30 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
What say you?
I agree with Icelander that death anxiety is ubiquitous among people, perhaps with more intense death anxiety among "first worlders" who have it all. If I only had a begging bowl, death, and the hope of a better birth next time might be a respite. The poorest people in the USA have it way better than multitudes in Africa, or India, for example. Less psychologically sophisticated people have not had the opportunity to sharpen their egoic mind like we have. Education, nutrition, medical care, decent housing, clean water, private ownership, etc., all create self-esteem to the point of hyper-inflated egos with self-importance. So infantile a dynamic is set up that in our grandiosity, we lose our moorings with the commonplace reality of death. We deny our own mortality on an emotional level like 'it can't happen to me.' I think you are witnessing this denial, and believing that death is simply accepted, though not dwelt upon. "Happy, yappy ordinary folk," are usually automatons, unawakened robots, as Georg Gurdjieff pointed out. Though people may disagree with me, I use the word happy to refer to external situations, whereas I use the word joy to refer to a deeper, self-sustaining 'flame' which abides throughout all situations, howsoever sad or shocking. I have felt joy through grief, as a sense of inner sustenance in my worst grief, and it was qualitatively different from happiness. It was the 'inner smile' that Knows that 'this too shall pass,' even my own life, and it's OK.
As for enlightenment, all I can say is that I am more enlightened now than I used to be when I was much younger. When I was just an impersonality of psychosexual and psychosocial needs, and I had not begun to realize myself as an awareness that 'saw' all these needs from a higher vantage point, I was painfully unenlightened. I still need to love - plants, animals, people. I got joy out of feeding a group of Ibises that were in my yard the other day, or feeding grapes to squirrels. I have that from early childhood. But I have never desired to become wealthy at the cost of my soul, or famous, or a womanizer, and these are the sort of desires that characterize the mundane person. This is what Paul called "the natural man," and for me, it has never been enough. I have always philosophized and sought to 'see' the motives that lie at the root of my beliefs and behaviors, not just unconsciously "Do It" as Nike suggests. This is what enlightenment is in part, and it can be lonely, when seemingly everyone around you is excited about the 'big game' in TV last night, and you neither know or care about it, and they mistakenly interpret your distance as aloofness or feigned superiority, when in truth, you just are not interested and can't fathom such an expenditure of emotional energy on so banal a thing.
Whether football fan or religious fanatic, this level of emotionality serves only to distract people from their death anxiety, and/or fill the emptiness of their inner lives (fear of silence - listen to people cough and fidget during a quiet portion of a church service). 'My team,' or 'my religion' is all about the maintenance of one's social self - a level of ego. It is about the Void or absence of ego that people fear. What the unenlightened fail to Know is that the Void, the Emptiness, is simultaneously the Fullness, the Pleroma, but It is non-ego - Wholly Other. Call it what you will - God, or the Clear Light of the Void. Enlightenment is about identifying with this non-egoic consciousness, with Being. Unenlightenment is the failure to do so.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,310
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#15560436 - 12/23/11 08:53 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Cool post.  
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,883
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#15560573 - 12/23/11 10:12 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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I agree with Icelander
Christmas comes early for Icelander this year. 
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 79,883
Loc: underbelly
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#15560581 - 12/23/11 10:15 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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As for enlightenment, all I can say is that I am more enlightened now than I used to be when I was much younger.
This is how I see it also. However it leaves me wondering how much of this enlightenment is due to gathered wisdom and how much is due to chemical changes due to aging. Some of both for sure.
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"Hang on tightly, let go lightly" -anonymous
“under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. we have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. we have never seen a totally sane human being.”
― Robert Anton Wilson
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc: 
Last seen: 13 hours, 4 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15560750 - 12/23/11 11:09 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
What say you?
I've thought of this before, but really, there is no such thing as normal. Being alive is just to mind boggling weird and strange, and to try and normalize it just seems to lead to disaster. IMO I actually find stuff like family and social interaction especially weird. Things are always going to be weird, then we get around in groups and pretend that existence isn't weird, but it's just a facade that I can see right through.
I think you've looked outside of the cave so to speak using Plato's analogy, and now you want to go back in the cave and be like everyone else in the cave. But once you get that one peak, you can never be content with the shadows dancing on the wall no more. Unless you get brain damage or something.
I feel like I'm in the same spot as you. On the fence between a 'normal' life, and being totally exposed to the absurdity. I really don't have an answer either, I'm just hoping at the moment were I'm going ends up some place good.
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc:
Last seen: 13 hours, 4 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15560772 - 12/23/11 11:16 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
What say you?
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 14 hours, 5 minutes
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 Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Icelander]
#15560787 - 12/23/11 11:21 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
As for enlightenment, all I can say is that I am more enlightened now than I used to be when I was much younger.
This is how I see it also. However it leaves me wondering how much of this enlightenment is due to gathered wisdom and how much is due to chemical changes due to aging. Some of both for sure.
It's not either/or, it's both. I'm reminded of Ken Wilber's All Quadrants All Levels chart (AQAL). Reality manifests along these different axes, so along with the 'objective' physical-chemical (Upper Right), wisdom is the 'subjective' conscious (Upper Left) aspect of the self-same phenomenon.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 14 hours, 5 minutes
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 Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: dustinthewind13]
#15560800 - 12/23/11 11:26 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Cool post.
Thankyuoverymuch. 
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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g00ru
the kava crow
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 17,455
Loc: atlantis
Last seen: 4 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15561177 - 12/23/11 01:11 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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if that's the life you wanna lead then go for it, certainly not a barrier to enlightenment to do those things. and if you really want to construct your life in such a way then self-realization is very helpful. Why impose a duality between a normal life and enlightenment? Maybe your enlightenment is to realize you don't want to fuck with all that far out weird shit any more....although personally I  far out weird shit
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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 Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15561610 - 12/23/11 01:55 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:36 PM)
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Grapefruit
Oblivious Fool
Registered: 05/09/08
Posts: 4,685
Last seen: 15 hours, 13 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#15562554 - 12/23/11 04:36 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
As for enlightenment, all I can say is that I am more enlightened now than I used to be when I was much younger.
This is how I see it also. However it leaves me wondering how much of this enlightenment is due to gathered wisdom and how much is due to chemical changes due to aging. Some of both for sure.
It's not either/or, it's both. I'm reminded of Ken Wilber's All Quadrants All Levels chart (AQAL). Reality manifests along these different axes, so along with the 'objective' physical-chemical (Upper Right), wisdom is the 'subjective' conscious (Upper Left) aspect of the self-same phenomenon.
I don't know about this chart and can't fathom what it means but you can tell from the way a selection of sensory queues from a piece of media can dramatically alter brain chemistry (even if only for a short while) that the way we deal with input plays a big part in the end product.
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I remember when I believed in meaning
Those days aside the hilltop where the sunlight sky and meadows below spoke promises of eternal future
And I remember the day the world turned on me, how frightened I was and the idiotic surprise I was met with
I should've known!
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r72rock
Learning to Grow
Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 862
Loc: Chicago 
Last seen: 12 hours, 14 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#15562613 - 12/23/11 04:55 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Great post Markos!
I used to be very occupied with the idea of becoming enlightened when I was ~17. I obsessed over it and it totally tore me apart. It might be one of the times that I was most unhappy.
These days, I see it more as me playing the game of being human. I have desires, and that's nothing to be ashamed of, because I'm human. I'm afraid of death, and there's nothing wrong with that, because I'm human. I flop between happiness and sadness, and there's nothing wrong with that either, because I'm human. It's natural to have all these things.
I'm playing the human game and enjoying myself while doing so. I'm not trying to be enlightened, I'm just trying to be a human being. As Markos said, this too shall pass. 
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Refraining from all evil, not clinging to birth and death, working in deep compassion for all sentient beings, respecting those over you and pitying those below you, without any detesting or desiring, worrying or lamentation - this is what is called Buddha. Do not search beyond it. - Dōgen
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deff
just relax
Registered: 05/01/04
Posts: 7,058
Loc: nowhere
Last seen: 3 days, 11 hours
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15562863 - 12/23/11 06:19 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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i would say enlightenment is the epitome of normal humanness, it's our natural state free from mental afflictions and delusions
there's nothing wrong with the activities you describe in the OP and i see no reason why they'd interfere with spiritual development. like others have said, it's not an either-or situation. also spirituality can be many things, i think living a life where you share love and happiness with friends and try to help others is a very spiritual life itself.
also, i don't see enlightenment as an all or nothing thing. i don't see it as a case where one toils their whole life with this dream of perfect enlightenment, hoping that one day they'll magically become perfect. instead, spiritual practice has many benefits throughout the path. even if you don't reach full enlightenment, i think you can create a much happier and peaceful life through spiritual practice. hopefully it isn't a case where you keep doing practices and analysing and stuff and never see any relative benefits.
also, i think finding a balance between one's spiritual development and other interests in life is a good idea, to prevent getting burnt out from spirituality. this is especially the case when one first gets into spiritual practice - there's a tendency to decide to go all out and shape your whole life around it right from the beginning, but i think this might lead to discouragement and disillusionment. i think spiritual practice is something that evolves over time, gradually. don't beat yourself up for not living up to some imagined ideal, just be gentle and patient imo.
you mention that there's a lot of people without any spiritual interest who lead happy lives - and there probably are some. however we really cannot see into other people's minds, no matter how happy they seem on the outside and how much they smile. depression is a huge issue, as is anxiety, racing thoughts, etc. a spiritual practice can really help with these common things i think. i have the feeling that people who don't meditate, certainly not everyone, but a lot, are probably very controlled by their thoughts/mind/desires. there's nothing wrong with this, but i much prefer inner peace myself than chasing external happiness.
of course you're free to do whatever you want with your life, but i have a feeling that since you've already immersed yourself as much as you have in spiritual thought that you'll very likely return to it later in life if you decide to give it up now. you may find initially that the thought of living what you deem a normal life is the way to go, but later on you may become disillusioned with this once again. but of course everyone is different that way, and i hope that whatever you choose you're very happy.
also - if spirituality to you is about elitism and weird consciousness, maybe you're doing something wrong? to me - spirituality really highlights our equality, leads to compassion and selflessness, etc. elitism is definitely an obstacle to spiritual growth. and i'm not entirely sure what you mean by weird consciousness, but the goal of buddhism any ways is to wake up altogether from 'weird states of consciousness'. what we deem normal life, from a buddhist perspective, is a very weird state of consciousness
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Edited by deff (12/23/11 06:24 PM)
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
Last seen: 3 months, 1 day
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: White Beard]
#15562972 - 12/23/11 06:44 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Quote:
circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
What say you?
I have a poster of this quote on my room and I was staring at it today right before I dosed some ayahausca that didn't do anything but make me violently throw up. I'm with cirastes and I'm with your post above this one about the allegory of the cave...
This whole trip, life, existence, is madness but its playful non-serious madness..I'm emerging from this fanatical mindfuck of psychedelic induced self-rigetousness where EVERYTHING IS FUCKING SERIOUS and its just not. And I'm slowly coming to terms with that and with it a degree of inner acceptance that wasn't there before is slowly emerging.
I fasted for nearly three full days and spent a hell of a lot of time bored and brewing my ayahuasca and I got nothing for it but a fuck load of puke and disappointment but thats sort of part of it too--this enlightenment thing that is--its just like coming to terms with how shit is and not trying to change anything.
I'm confused but its like this defeatist confused from my physical exhaustion from vomiting, sleeping poorly, and fasting...and its like...fuck it...this whole thing is retarded anyway...and thats my satori moment. I don't know where I'm going anymore. I'm totally lost as to whats going on and right now I don't give a shit. Joseph Campbell said if you're falling then dive....
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  If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
Edited by JackofSpades (12/23/11 06:51 PM)
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: JackofSpades]
#15564087 - 12/23/11 10:20 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:38 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 14 hours, 5 minutes
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 Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: r72rock]
#15564868 - 12/24/11 01:01 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks!
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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crkhd
☾☼☽
Registered: 12/29/08
Posts: 1,911
Loc: A human sphere enfolding ...
Last seen: 7 hours, 41 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: JackofSpades]
#15565958 - 12/24/11 10:10 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
JackofSpades said:
I have a poster of this quote on my room and I was staring at it today right before I dosed some ayahausca that didn't do anything but make me violently throw up. I'm with cirastes and I'm with your post above this one about the allegory of the cave...
This whole trip, life, existence, is madness but its playful non-serious madness..I'm emerging from this fanatical mindfuck of psychedelic induced self-rigetousness where EVERYTHING IS FUCKING SERIOUS and its just not. And I'm slowly coming to terms with that and with it a degree of inner acceptance that wasn't there before is slowly emerging.
I fasted for nearly three full days and spent a hell of a lot of time bored and brewing my ayahuasca and I got nothing for it but a fuck load of puke and disappointment but thats sort of part of it too--this enlightenment thing that is--its just like coming to terms with how shit is and not trying to change anything.
I'm confused but its like this defeatist confused from my physical exhaustion from vomiting, sleeping poorly, and fasting...and its like...fuck it...this whole thing is retarded anyway...and thats my satori moment. I don't know where I'm going anymore. I'm totally lost as to whats going on and right now I don't give a shit. Joseph Campbell said if you're falling then dive....
Careful, psychotropics give you a much better experience when you show them gratitude...
--------------------
"Everything there is, and all that there is, is a Pattern of unspeakable proportion. The Pattern contains everything that is, completely fixed in succession, all the minimal particles interconnected in every way that is. Every way that is is not every conceivable way, because not everything that can be conceived is manifest in the pattern."
"THE Human, you, is a miniscule but essential part of that pattern. In it lies complete fulfillment. It will never become something it is not, but it will never need to be anything else." - Wiccan_Seeker
<i AM breath rippling through water|light reflecting to self with thought AM i>
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JackofSpades
Peace
Registered: 03/01/09
Posts: 2,897
Last seen: 3 months, 1 day
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: crkhd]
#15567402 - 12/24/11 04:36 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
crkhd said:
Quote:
JackofSpades said:
I have a poster of this quote on my room and I was staring at it today right before I dosed some ayahausca that didn't do anything but make me violently throw up. I'm with cirastes and I'm with your post above this one about the allegory of the cave...
This whole trip, life, existence, is madness but its playful non-serious madness..I'm emerging from this fanatical mindfuck of psychedelic induced self-rigetousness where EVERYTHING IS FUCKING SERIOUS and its just not. And I'm slowly coming to terms with that and with it a degree of inner acceptance that wasn't there before is slowly emerging.
I fasted for nearly three full days and spent a hell of a lot of time bored and brewing my ayahuasca and I got nothing for it but a fuck load of puke and disappointment but thats sort of part of it too--this enlightenment thing that is--its just like coming to terms with how shit is and not trying to change anything.
I'm confused but its like this defeatist confused from my physical exhaustion from vomiting, sleeping poorly, and fasting...and its like...fuck it...this whole thing is retarded anyway...and thats my satori moment. I don't know where I'm going anymore. I'm totally lost as to whats going on and right now I don't give a shit. Joseph Campbell said if you're falling then dive....
Careful, psychotropics give you a much better experience when you show them gratitude...
I'm not disrespecting anything other than my own romanticized ideals of how things ought to be...Its really about letting go and letting go of letting go, meaning just follow the stream.
"Being" or god or spirit doesn't care what happens or even how you live. Maharashi pointed out that it doesn't matter if you are a evil person or a saint, all that matters is that you wake up to your true nature, which is not dependent on ethical behavior...
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If you're frightened of dying and you're holding on, you'll see devils tearing your life away. But if you've made your peace, then the devils are really angels, freeing you from the earth.
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desert father
Stranger
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15568360 - 12/24/11 09:57 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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who/what is normal and with what conditions and in comparison to what do you judge someone to be abnormal?
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vi veri veniversum vivus vici
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Buster_Brown
atlatl
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: desert father]
#15569411 - 12/25/11 03:56 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Fear of schizophrenia is normal. Back in the day I was warned to beware of the Gnomes, but it isn't the Gnomes to be wary of, It's Dali's Heirophants.
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Buster_Brown]
#15570392 - 12/25/11 01:45 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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I know right
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Buster_Brown]
#15571094 - 12/25/11 06:41 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:39 PM)
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Buster_Brown
atlatl
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15572845 - 12/26/11 05:36 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Paranoia goes hand in hand with the schizophrenic episodes of enlightenment.
Delving into the nature of reality proposes interaction with Elementals, imo, which includes the Heirophants of the Elusian mysteries.
A common misconception, I believe, is that the mysteries are necessarily a product of Dionysian revelry commonly associated with alcohol that may lead me to the conclusion that most Heirophants are alcoholics.
For my own part, I believe "the stone upon which we trip" is more to do with Morpheus and the Oneiroi from the land of Nod; Opiates mutually exclusive of alcohol, and yet addictive nontheless.
Because misery loves company, I would say that there is a good possibility for the uninitiated to become enamored and actually sell one's soul to gain the earth that sustains addictions.
(perhaps I've misspelled the reference to Salvidore Dali's paintings of "Heirophants" in a row of which the uninitiated can expect to encounter)
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Buster_Brown
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15573195 - 12/26/11 08:37 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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On Paranoia:
You may recall a line from popular fiction where Dumbledor says "He will try to collect you".
Given that collectives exist, I think caution bordering on paranoia is the order of the day.
Do you feel like you have been 'collected'?
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Buster_Brown]
#15573656 - 12/26/11 12:15 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:40 PM)
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Buster_Brown]
#15573688 - 12/26/11 12:28 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:41 PM)
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Buster_Brown]
#15573965 - 12/26/11 01:45 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
Buster_Brown said:
On Paranoia:
You may recall a line from popular fiction where Dumbledor says "He will try to collect you".
Given that collectives exist, I think caution bordering on paranoia is the order of the day.
Do you feel like you have been 'collected'?
could you give an example of a "collective"?
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: g00ru]
#15574224 - 12/26/11 02:55 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:42 PM)
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15574337 - 12/26/11 03:25 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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okay, that's what I thought.
so, the fact that human consciousness can interface with itself is reason for paranoia? that's crazy. we are social beings, and your ego is gonna be influenced by others. maybe buster is talking about some occult scary collectives? I haven't been contacted by any of those, at least I don't think.
Although one time a few years ago when i was whackin it i felt like evil businessmen were trying to invade my brain and turn me into a soldier of corporate malice 
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: g00ru]
#15574415 - 12/26/11 03:47 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:43 PM)
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15574833 - 12/26/11 05:50 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
cateyes said:
Quote:
guruu said:
okay, that's what I thought.
so, the fact that human consciousness can interface with itself is reason for paranoia? that's crazy. we are social beings, and your ego is gonna be influenced by others. maybe buster is talking about some occult scary collectives? I haven't been contacted by any of those, at least I don't think.
i agree with you, but consider this... what if an individual felt pressure to conform to an idea, everyone else was buying into... look at what's happening now with the issue regarding the patriot act and other tied in legislation. MANY people support it while others in the know oppose it out of fear of the power it gives the government to imprison anyone deemed a home based terrorist... they argue that the way the law is written anyone who opposes the line under specific situations can be considered a terrorist... they're worried that nationalism gone wild could place them in prison camps... i'm not saying this is going to happen, i'm just pointing out the real problems that can turn up under the right conditions... maybe that wasn't a good analogy...
no i feel ya group think is very dangerous. i mean, you can use an even more widespread example. this one is weird.
i notice, especially towards the end of semester at my school, people are thinking really hard and they get these furrowed brows with wrinkles, and it's not only a sign of their concern and effort but also an important social gesture.
but the mind isn't physical, you don't have to furrow your brow to think or be excited or anything like that, and personally i am usually pretty still from the eyebrows up even if i have intense thought going on.
seriously, it's just a different approach to mind/body than many people have...and when i'm in social interactions it's like I don't use a commonly accepted way of saying "it's all good, i'm on your level." I can let that mental energy do what it does without displaying it in that way. There are other subtle ways of stimulating your mind, you don't have to freak out on your forehead every time lol.
so anyways that's a common thought/body pattern that people hold collectively and I don't and it makes me come off like an alien sometimes but hey that's fine by me
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Ped
Circumspect
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15575132 - 12/26/11 07:30 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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The only thing that can really obstruct us from being normal human beings is the attempt to be normal human beings.
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: g00ru]
#15575245 - 12/26/11 08:03 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:44 PM)
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Buster_Brown
atlatl
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: g00ru]
#15575893 - 12/27/11 12:01 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
could you give an example of a "collective"?
This came to me as I mused on it today: Dumbledor's words are a perspective on 'He will try to save you'. As a collective may have asked you: "Have you been saved?"
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Buster_Brown
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15575932 - 12/27/11 12:10 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Thanks for the nice long read.. "all hell broke loose... the interesting thing is once i stood my ground and things eventually blew over in their own way."
Holding one's ground is a tough road when raising the vibrations tends to have the road disappear from under one's feet.
I often have to re-read my articles of faith and let it sink in, again, that, no..I don't have to be the authority. And yes, you're right, things will eventually blow over in their own (predetermined) way.
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Buster_Brown]
#15576096 - 12/27/11 12:58 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:45 PM)
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15576202 - 12/27/11 01:30 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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look at a psychological conditions called depersonalization/derealization which are both very high anxiety states of mind.
Not necessarily! The yogic correlate is vairagya - dispassion. The Greek theological-psychological correlate is apatheia. I find both depersonalization and derealization to be respites from a lifetime of inordinate emotional attachment. I HAVE experienced Clinical Depression, with Psychotic Features, immediately after leaving a marriage of 13 years. I recognized the condition as a 'this is not happening' experience, and that probably WAS a defense mechanism against freaking out as I came to realize that I'd be married to a profoundly mentally ill woman for a full 1/3 of my life. BUT, under psychedelics, I welcome both of these aspects. Leary et al. wrote about this in The Psychedelic Experience as the 'plastic doll phase.' These aspects can be highly instructive in that one becomes detached from one's ordinary identification with the emotional tincturing of our intellectual awareness. It comes across as alien at first, and the medical model obviously considers them to be pathological (socially non-conformist to emotional cultural norms). Nevertheless, my familiarity with these forms of detachment have actually given me greater clinical objectivity and self-control in otherwise profoundly upsetting situations. So, as William james said in 1901, as a result of a Nitrous Oxide experience, which doubtlessly resulted in such a derealization/depersonalization. I bold the relevant statement about practical application of such states, after their mastery:
"Some years ago I myself made some observations on this aspect of nitrous oxide intoxication, and reported them in print. One conclusion was forced upon my mind at that time, and my impression of its truth has ever since remained unshaken. It is our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different. We may go through life without suspecting their existence; but apply the requisite stimulus, and at a touch they are there in all their completeness, definite types of mentality which probably somewhere have their field of application and adaptation. No account of the universe in its totality can be final which leaves these other forms of consciousness quite discarded. How to regard them is the question,-for they are so discontinuous with ordinary consciousness." - The Varieties of Religious Experience
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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g00ru
the kava crow
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15576737 - 12/27/11 05:22 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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ya, being able to send positive vibes to people comes more naturally when you are on top of your game, very true. And the only way to do that is to be mindful! It's wild how the mind is simultaneously our greatest obstacle and greatest tool. It's like, it's not who I really am, but it's the most sacred aspect of me as an individual...I don't wan't to run off on an ego trip, but I don't want to get confused and short circuit my own thinking either.
Middle paaaaath 
peace2u kensho
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Buster_Brown
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15576812 - 12/27/11 06:34 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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As recipe's are predetermined by there ingredients; that's my understanding of predeterminism; Add another ingredient, and the results change, according to a predetermined guesstimate.
The witches of Hamlet throw all kinds of things in to boil & bubble, what's added or left out changes the brew to something only an adept could fathom. As an initiate myself, I am unaware of the specific actions or agendas of the separate ingredients.
Because the voices appear to be disembodied we might say that they lack attributes common to the human condition. Sometimes I'll compose something in my diary that at first seems self-evident, only to cross it out later because there seems to be something wrong with it. I guess sometimes we see the world thru different eyes.
I'll add an example to my online journal.
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#15580247 - 12/27/11 10:35 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:47 PM)
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: g00ru]
#15580253 - 12/27/11 10:36 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:47 PM)
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: Buster_Brown]
#15580278 - 12/27/11 10:42 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:48 PM)
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15580322 - 12/27/11 10:51 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:48 PM)
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,310
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15580324 - 12/27/11 10:51 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
cateyes said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
look at a psychological conditions called depersonalization/derealization which are both very high anxiety states of mind.
Not necessarily! The yogic correlate is vairagya - dispassion. The Greek theological-psychological correlate is apatheia. I find both depersonalization and derealization to be respites from a lifetime of inordinate emotional attachment. I HAVE experienced Clinical Depression, with Psychotic Features, immediately after leaving a marriage of 13 years. I recognized the condition as a 'this is not happening' experience, and that probably WAS a defense mechanism against freaking out as I came to realize that I'd be married to a profoundly mentally ill woman for a full 1/3 of my life. BUT, under psychedelics, I welcome both of these aspects. Leary et al. wrote about this in The Psychedelic Experience as the 'plastic doll phase.' These aspects can be highly instructive in that one becomes detached from one's ordinary identification with the emotional tincturing of our intellectual awareness. It comes across as alien at first, and the medical model obviously considers them to be pathological (socially non-conformist to emotional cultural norms). Nevertheless, my familiarity with these forms of detachment have actually given me greater clinical objectivity and self-control in otherwise profoundly upsetting situations. So, as William james said in 1901, as a result of a Nitrous Oxide experience, which doubtlessly resulted in such a derealization/depersonalization. I bold the relevant statement about practical application of such states, after their mastery:
"Some years ago I myself made some observations on this aspect of nitrous oxide intoxication, and reported them in print. One conclusion was forced upon my mind at that time, and my impression of its truth has ever since remained unshaken. It is our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different. We may go through life without suspecting their existence; but apply the requisite stimulus, and at a touch they are there in all their completeness, definite types of mentality which probably somewhere have their field of application and adaptation. No account of the universe in its totality can be final which leaves these other forms of consciousness quite discarded. How to regard them is the question,-for they are so discontinuous with ordinary consciousness." - The Varieties of Religious Experience
Quote:
look at a psychological conditions called depersonalization/derealization which are both very high anxiety states of mind. both mind states can be brought on by even the mildest forms of anxiety, but the individual developed it because they were living under tremendous anxiety for an extended period of time... either one of these two conditions seem to be a defense mechanism of the brain. i experienced both and let me tell you they could either be a cool, let's see how i can ride this out to total terror, and it was all a response to the mind sensing anxiety beginning to start building up...
i included this full quote in order to help me try and help me understand things better and try to put something out there at the same time... i understood the concept of vairagya through reading sanskrit during my time in advanced school but i no clue about regarding apatheia so i had to look that up. i see the connection between the two but i never considered DP/DR to be the result of excessive emotional attachment. i know that these experiences are quite common "symptoms" of different forms of mental illness or in those who are either sensitive to or have abused dissociative's. it makes perfect sense to me that this had to occur to others outside these other two subgroups. it's interesting that you've been able to link it to excessive attachment. i can really see how experiencing DP/DR in the anxiety of dissociative abuse or as a symptom of mental illness, because it seems to be a disconnect protection but it never dawned on me that this could be brought on by emotional attachment itself. is that the point you were trying to make, that it's the anxiety caused by excessive emotional dependance that causes emotional detachment? or is it just the passion itself? if it's the passion that causes this that blows my mind, but if it's the anxiety from dependence that causes detachment(DP), then i see no difference between our points.
respectful use of psychedelics played a huge role in my recovery, at least i believe it did. it's interesting that psilocybin itself is being re-explored, it's about time this happened. can i ask you a question? i read your profile and see you're qualified... through your own personal experience and/or your patients, do all of you experience the full scope of the DP/DR crisis, for lack of a better word? as i pointed out in my full quote, there were times the experience was enjoyable while other times it could be a nuisance and on many occasions a complete mess, a crisis so to speak.
i don't know anything about william james and his voyage into nitrous. there is little doubt in my mind that DP/DR are altered states. my first and only recreational experience was when i was 15, some kid invited some friends and i to nitrous party in his garage. turned out he had stolen a large tank of nitrous from a dental office's basement. he rigged up some tubing and we all took turns... my personal experience in audio were tunneling, a slight ringing and a sound like cicadas make. visual was simple really, just a loss of peripheral. body perceptions were a sense of lightness, tingling and a body warmth, there was a rush about my head, as if it were vibrating a little. from a sense of reality stand point, i experienced a little disconnect, not much though. after discussing it, all of my friends experiences were the exact same as mine with only one exception in that they felt heavy while i felt light. i didn't experience many other symptoms that i did later in life with DP/DR... some examples are a distorted perception of body parts, additional visual disturbances like seeing waves in things or visual tunneling at times. a sense of existing outside of myself and a total disconnect from real, these are just naming a few. it's funny, the few times i needed dental work i'd experience some of what occurred from my first trip in only now i feel heavy. my dentist see's things in me at times and instructs his assistant to cut back. i don't feel i breathe any different or give him other ques, but something trips him over. did james really master nitrous? did he really experience the full scope of DP/DR? did he actually reach the very edge? what was the quality of his nitrous? i know what i used was medical approved... did he use as much as i did? i can't tell you exactly what i used but let's just say, i had no inhabitions and drew on that tube as if it were my last breathe. i don't know, i didn't read what he reported in print, i'm assuming you did. i asked if he really reached the edge because the kid who threw the party was found dead alone in his garage during the following week. i know he reached the edge, god the poor kid fell over it... he was very cool too, it was really a shame he lost his life like that. i hope that final state was one step closer to where he headed...
i checked out amazon for the james book you referenced on amazon but found many of his books under the same title. which one should i read? is there one in particular that describes his experience fully? if you can help me out i'd really appreciate it.
have a good new year if we don't exchange again by then...
Kensho 
I love nitrous. What does that say about me? I'm having a hard time decrypting this.
Oh and how is being vegan? And I like the rest of your sig. Peace. 
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: dustinthewind13]
#15580798 - 12/28/11 12:19 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:49 PM)
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,310
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15581709 - 12/28/11 08:05 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
cateyes said:
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
I love nitrous. What does that say about me? I'm having a hard time decrypting this.
Oh and how is being vegan? And I like the rest of your sig. Peace.
it probably would be hard to put it together because i addressed different issues in one post... i ended with nitrous, maybe if you had skipped over everything else everything would be cool... the use of nitrous was brought up because a past nitrous pioneer described his experience and we were sharing ideas how it related to a somewhat common psychological condition... i hope that sheds some light on it... knowing this you might be able to reread my post and marks and have a better feel for what we're talking about.
what does it say about you? absolutely nothing... i never pass judgement on anyone... if you use it, cool! just be careful because it killed someone i knew. being vegan has got to be one of the best moves i've ever made. the important thing is eating balanced... the right amount of carbs, proteins and fats and the quality of each. drink plenty of water, i drink about a gallon a day, exercise, i use a few supplements and i do mindfulness and i'm covered for life... yeah that sig says it all really, regarding mental illness that is. stanislav grof is brilliant really...
Kensho
It's so hard to become vegan though. I've tried before. Can't seem to do it. Maybe someday. I just need the right motivation I guess. 
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: dustinthewind13]
#15581965 - 12/28/11 10:39 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
It's so hard to become vegan though. I've tried before. Can't seem to do it. Maybe someday. I just need the right motivation I guess.
well for me it became easy after reprogramming areas of my subconscious. i had the same problem becoming motivated into doing something i knew was important to me. that was what was so fucked up about it, that i knew... i needed it mentally but more important i needed it physically. you have to ask yourself why am i not able to commit to something? and if you come up with answers you have to address each issue one by one. it has to be this way, there is no multitasking when it comes to this. problems with motivation can be physical as well as mental blocks, at least in my opinion, there may be others here who'll disagree but this has been my experience...
Kensho
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dustinthewind13
Fool
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Posts: 4,310
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15581983 - 12/28/11 10:47 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
cateyes said:
Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
It's so hard to become vegan though. I've tried before. Can't seem to do it. Maybe someday. I just need the right motivation I guess.
well for me it became easy after reprogramming areas of my subconscious. i had the same problem becoming motivated into doing something i knew was important to me. that was what was so fucked up about it, that i knew... i needed it mentally but more important i needed it physically. you have to ask yourself why am i not able to commit to something? and if you come up with answers you have to address each issue one by one. it has to be this way, there is no multitasking when it comes to this. problems with motivation can be physical as well as mental blocks, at least in my opinion, there may be others here who'll disagree but this has been my experience...
Kensho
I have no idea what my block is.
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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g00ru
the kava crow
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 17,455
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Last seen: 4 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: dustinthewind13]
#15582375 - 12/28/11 12:44 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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it doesn't matter what your block is, it's just something in your mind, so clearing your mind will eventually solve it
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,310
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: g00ru]
#15582469 - 12/28/11 01:09 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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I do want the block removed. I'm trying to impress someone. Anything to get laid I think. Or maybe not. Maybe that person eats meat? Damn my ego. I'm going insane.
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
#15585567 - 12/29/11 03:28 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:50 PM)
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blankk
on the road
Registered: 11/04/11
Posts: 2,701
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15585575 - 12/29/11 03:32 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders.
I know a guy like that. Has nightmares almost every night.
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lolwut
Gone Troppo
Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 2,076
Loc: The Lost Woods
Last seen: 57 minutes, 37 seconds
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: blankk]
#15585835 - 12/29/11 05:59 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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I'm currently reading Carlos Castaneda 1, and he talks about how to be a man of knowledge you must first overcome 4 enemies: fear, clarity, power, and old age. Only once they are overcome, can you become "a man of knowledge".
I think old age ties in directly to death anxiety, for me, I was sitting there and thought "so this is my body, this is my house, and this is my life. May as well put it to good use".
Yep worst case scenario is we die. And people get so stressed in life.
There's nothing wrong with not being enlightened, I don't see a separation between me and the rest of us, and most souls in this incarnation won't be enlightened. The enlightened state is the same as the natural state anyway, in this way everyone is already enlightened. I think there are a lot of ego games and linguistics that can get you tied up into knots or caught in irrational paradox just by talking about it. I'm not saying don't talk about it, but as a topic of discussion, almost everyone is going to have their own ideas. I mean, if you had of said, "Screw the State The Homeless Man Is Always In" you would of gotten different responses.
Don't forget "I am you and what I see is me", enlightened or not, we're the same unique fruit of the earth.
Quote:
There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
"Ignorance is bliss  Besides get off the trip happiness is just a myth." And I guarantee you, throw a death-vibe their way, or confront them with their mortality directly, and you will see their fears.
What you don't see is everyone else's insecurities, their fears, problems, suffering, ignorance, desire, and so on. These are the things that people on the middle road or an equivalent path eradicate, and do their best to eradicate it for others too (out of compassion/bodhicitta).
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In old age Diogenes stopped a veteran and asked, “What were you in the last war?”
“Oh, I was only a private,” replied the veteran.
Diogenes rocked as if about to fall. “Ye gods!” he gasped. “At last!” Then after catching his breath he blew out his lantern and went home.
-Osho
Edited by lolwut (12/29/11 06:28 AM)
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cateyes
Registered: 12/16/03
Posts: 2,754
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: lolwut]
#15585900 - 12/29/11 06:53 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Edited by cateyes (04/19/12 01:51 PM)
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dustinthewind13
Fool
Registered: 11/05/10
Posts: 4,310
Loc: Being a burden
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: lolwut]
#15585997 - 12/29/11 08:19 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
lolwut said:
I'm currently reading Carlos Castaneda 1, and he talks about how to be a man of knowledge you must first overcome 4 enemies: fear, clarity, power, and old age. Only once they are overcome, can you become "a man of knowledge".
I think old age ties in directly to death anxiety, for me, I was sitting there and thought "so this is my body, this is my house, and this is my life. May as well put it to good use".
Yep worst case scenario is we die. And people get so stressed in life.
There's nothing wrong with not being enlightened, I don't see a separation between me and the rest of us, and most souls in this incarnation won't be enlightened. The enlightened state is the same as the natural state anyway, in this way everyone is already enlightened. I think there are a lot of ego games and linguistics that can get you tied up into knots or caught in irrational paradox just by talking about it. I'm not saying don't talk about it, but as a topic of discussion, almost everyone is going to have their own ideas. I mean, if you had of said, "Screw the State The Homeless Man Is Always In" you would of gotten different responses.
Don't forget "I am you and what I see is me", enlightened or not, we're the same unique fruit of the earth.
Quote:
There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
"Ignorance is bliss Besides get off the trip happiness is just a myth." And I guarantee you, throw a death-vibe their way, or confront them with their mortality directly, and you will see their fears.
What you don't see is everyone else's insecurities, their fears, problems, suffering, ignorance, desire, and so on. These are the things that people on the middle road or an equivalent path eradicate, and do their best to eradicate it for others too (out of compassion/bodhicitta).
Me likey.
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"I'm just a soul whose intentions are good
Oh Lord, please don't let me be misunderstood"
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MarkostheGnostic
Elder
Registered: 12/10/99
Posts: 9,144
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 14 hours, 5 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: cateyes]
#15588411 - 12/29/11 07:45 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
cateyes said:
Quote:
MarkostheGnostic said:
look at a psychological conditions called depersonalization/derealization which are both very high anxiety states of mind.
Not necessarily! The yogic correlate is vairagya - dispassion. The Greek theological-psychological correlate is apatheia. I find both depersonalization and derealization to be respites from a lifetime of inordinate emotional attachment. I HAVE experienced Clinical Depression, with Psychotic Features, immediately after leaving a marriage of 13 years. I recognized the condition as a 'this is not happening' experience, and that probably WAS a defense mechanism against freaking out as I came to realize that I'd be married to a profoundly mentally ill woman for a full 1/3 of my life. BUT, under psychedelics, I welcome both of these aspects. Leary et al. wrote about this in The Psychedelic Experience as the 'plastic doll phase.' These aspects can be highly instructive in that one becomes detached from one's ordinary identification with the emotional tincturing of our intellectual awareness. It comes across as alien at first, and the medical model obviously considers them to be pathological (socially non-conformist to emotional cultural norms). Nevertheless, my familiarity with these forms of detachment have actually given me greater clinical objectivity and self-control in otherwise profoundly upsetting situations. So, as William james said in 1901, as a result of a Nitrous Oxide experience, which doubtlessly resulted in such a derealization/depersonalization. I bold the relevant statement about practical application of such states, after their mastery:
"Some years ago I myself made some observations on this aspect of nitrous oxide intoxication, and reported them in print. One conclusion was forced upon my mind at that time, and my impression of its truth has ever since remained unshaken. It is our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different. We may go through life without suspecting their existence; but apply the requisite stimulus, and at a touch they are there in all their completeness, definite types of mentality which probably somewhere have their field of application and adaptation. No account of the universe in its totality can be final which leaves these other forms of consciousness quite discarded. How to regard them is the question,-for they are so discontinuous with ordinary consciousness." - The Varieties of Religious Experience
i responded but you never got back... i bumped this hoping maybe you could at least provide direction on what would be the right book of james that accurately describes his nitrous experience. it seemed pretty important to you to point it out. i'd like to know what it is that fascinated you.
Kensho
It's cited - The Varieties of Religious Experience. It is an oft-quoted passage. BE HERE NOW quoted it. James couldn't stomach enough peyote, so he took the visions on faith. What did shift his 'assemblage point' was the Nitrous. Nitrous Oxide is NOT healthy to take in excess. If one doesn't die of hypoxia, it interferes with the production of red blood cells in the long bones. Not good.
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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Sauton - Know Thyself
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc:
Last seen: 13 hours, 4 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15588852 - 12/29/11 09:10 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
What say you?
Well, sometimes I can be absorbed in meditation, or other times I can go about being with the family or being with friends, or other times I can be high as shit on some drugs. I think part of the fun for me especially is that I can jump back and forth between exploring different realities. Okay, I'll be with friends, then I'll want to do something else. Why pin it down?
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blankk
on the road
Registered: 11/04/11
Posts: 2,701
Loc: off the wall
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15589067 - 12/29/11 09:52 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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One mystic I read of said his most enlightening experience was a fully awake conscious separation from his body into the astral plane. He said he could feel every cell in his body separate, then could navigate the astral plane, which was the same in appearance to the physical plane (it was the same landscape outside as he saw it in the waking state), except wherever he thought of going he would transport there as if a magnet was pulling him. Really makes one think of the possibilities.
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usulpsychonaut
Hungry Ghost
Registered: 05/13/08
Posts: 1,573
Loc: Northland, New Zealand. 
Last seen: 1 hour, 19 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15593914 - 12/30/11 10:25 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
What say you?
Thats what I would have done. I've dropped out of all my classes. I'm a dysfunctional failure, all this spiritual crap is part of my attempt to get to an unenlightened state of normality. I just want to get money doing something that comes naturally without having to listen to the radio. If I could have got that degree I would already have a good job and a real life. Being a non achiever taking drugs is the only thrill that I can afford. Enlightenment is just my life.
--------------------
In every winter there's a different cold
in every winter I feel so old
so very old as the night
so very old as the dreadful cold
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lolwut
Gone Troppo
Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 2,076
Loc: The Lost Woods
Last seen: 57 minutes, 37 seconds
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: dustinthewind13]
#15595414 - 12/31/11 06:36 AM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
dustinthewind13 said:
Quote:
lolwut said:
I'm currently reading Carlos Castaneda 1, and he talks about how to be a man of knowledge you must first overcome 4 enemies: fear, clarity, power, and old age. Only once they are overcome, can you become "a man of knowledge".
I think old age ties in directly to death anxiety, for me, I was sitting there and thought "so this is my body, this is my house, and this is my life. May as well put it to good use".
Yep worst case scenario is we die. And people get so stressed in life.
There's nothing wrong with not being enlightened, I don't see a separation between me and the rest of us, and most souls in this incarnation won't be enlightened. The enlightened state is the same as the natural state anyway, in this way everyone is already enlightened. I think there are a lot of ego games and linguistics that can get you tied up into knots or caught in irrational paradox just by talking about it. I'm not saying don't talk about it, but as a topic of discussion, almost everyone is going to have their own ideas. I mean, if you had of said, "Screw the State The Homeless Man Is Always In" you would of gotten different responses.
Don't forget "I am you and what I see is me", enlightened or not, we're the same unique fruit of the earth.
Quote:
There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
"Ignorance is bliss Besides get off the trip happiness is just a myth." And I guarantee you, throw a death-vibe their way, or confront them with their mortality directly, and you will see their fears.
What you don't see is everyone else's insecurities, their fears, problems, suffering, ignorance, desire, and so on. These are the things that people on the middle road or an equivalent path eradicate, and do their best to eradicate it for others too (out of compassion/bodhicitta).
Me likey.
Thanks  Most importantly, if time's are rough, DONT GIVE UP! You don't need to be obsessed with the search, that can happen and it can become an ego trip, but it's worth pushing through the dark to see the light. It's always darkest before dawn.
--------------------
In old age Diogenes stopped a veteran and asked, “What were you in the last war?”
“Oh, I was only a private,” replied the veteran.
Diogenes rocked as if about to fall. “Ye gods!” he gasped. “At last!” Then after catching his breath he blew out his lantern and went home.
-Osho
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MotherNaturesSon
the United States of Love
Registered: 05/21/09
Posts: 783
Last seen: 7 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: circastes]
#15596272 - 12/31/11 12:41 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
What say you?
Sound to me that you've already reached your own kind of sincere enlightenment.
The greatest thing blocking the path to true non-overrated enlightenment, is the belief that it is something rare.
The jobs degrees and mortgages are variables depending on the way our society currently functions, but i see your point.
Why are you under the impression that spiritual enlightenment canot be achieved doing these things?
Usually spiritual enlightenment is a way of dealing with existential pressure and the fear of dying by coming to understand certain things about yourself. It's all very healthy for the mind actually.
You're the rare kind of individuals that have attained such a state of enlightenment that you see the superficial outlines of the modernized and almost institutionalized means of mass enlightenment that preach knowledge. That gives you a false reality that someone could actually give you a universal key to help you figure out the clister fuck of a puzzle that we all are. I applaude you!
Now you should just realize the folly of seeking conflict were none is needed. Some are very protective of their path to enlightenment. Shaking it thus way can be quite uncomfortable for some. Be understanding, be kind, be wise most of all. Some people might say "well you can live like that, ignorance is bliss" i believe that these people are sadly unaware of the true meaning of ignorance. Admittance to not knowing something or being currently incapable to know, rejection of unnecessary variables of empirical knowledge of other more directed spiritual beliefs is not ignorance. Far from it.
Good luck to you friend. Many here will misunderstand you  spread the love, live your life and watch it unfold. Youre bound to come across your very own path of enlightenment. For true enlightenment comes with sincerity, not practicing something like a hobby. And you seem to be more sincere with yourself than most. For that you have earned my respects.
Just know, that an enlightened human being is indeed a normal human being. A confused, craving and sad human being lacks the property of both spiritual and intellectual enlightenment.
Love
--------------------
   
Excerpts of inner dialogue VI-VI-VI:
"Im no saint, but I do have genuine intentions."
"So you believe in intensions?"
"No. I believe in being genuine."
Edited by MotherNaturesSon (12/31/11 12:51 PM)
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g00ru
the kava crow
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 17,455
Loc: atlantis
Last seen: 4 hours, 44 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: White Beard]
#15597692 - 12/31/11 05:57 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Quote:
White Beard said:
Quote:
circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...
What say you?
Well, sometimes I can be absorbed in meditation, or other times I can go about being with the family or being with friends, or other times I can be high as shit on some drugs. I think part of the fun for me especially is that I can jump back and forth between exploring different realities. Okay, I'll be with friends, then I'll want to do something else. Why pin it down?
totally, you gotta have an inner and outer life for the full experience
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White Beard
Registered: 08/13/11
Posts: 5,170
Loc:
Last seen: 13 hours, 4 minutes
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Re: Screw enlightenment, let's be normal human beings [Re: g00ru]
#15597714 - 12/31/11 06:01 PM (1 year, 4 months ago) |
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Yeah man, now that's freedom 
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