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lolwut said:
I'm currently reading Carlos Castaneda 1, and he talks about how to be a man of knowledge you must first overcome 4 enemies: fear, clarity, power, and old age. Only once they are overcome, can you become "a man of knowledge".

I think old age ties in directly to death anxiety, for me, I was sitting there and thought "so this is my body, this is my house, and this is my life. May as well put it to good use".

Yep worst case scenario is we die. And people get so stressed in life.

There's nothing wrong with not being enlightened, I don't see a separation between me and the rest of us, and most souls in this incarnation won't be enlightened. The enlightened state is the same as the natural state anyway, in this way everyone is already enlightened. I think there are a lot of ego games and linguistics that can get you tied up into knots or caught in irrational paradox just by talking about it. I'm not saying don't talk about it, but as a topic of discussion, almost everyone is going to have their own ideas. I mean, if you had of said, "Screw the State The Homeless Man Is Always In" you would of gotten different responses.

Don't forget "I am you and what I see is me", enlightened or not, we're the same unique fruit of the earth.

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There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

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"Ignorance is bliss Besides get off the trip happiness is just a myth." And I guarantee you, throw a death-vibe their way, or confront them with their mortality directly, and you will see their fears.

What you don't see is everyone else's insecurities, their fears, problems, suffering, ignorance, desire, and so on. These are the things that people on the middle road or an equivalent path eradicate, and do their best to eradicate it for others too (out of compassion/bodhicitta).

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Me likey.

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cateyes said:

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MarkostheGnostic said:
look at a psychological conditions called depersonalization/derealization which are both very high anxiety states of mind.

Not necessarily! The yogic correlate is vairagya - dispassion. The Greek theological-psychological correlate is apatheia. I find both depersonalization and derealization to be respites from a lifetime of inordinate emotional attachment. I HAVE experienced Clinical Depression, with Psychotic Features, immediately after leaving a marriage of 13 years. I recognized the condition as a 'this is not happening' experience, and that probably WAS a defense mechanism against freaking out as I came to realize that I'd be married to a profoundly mentally ill woman for a full 1/3 of my life. BUT, under psychedelics, I welcome both of these aspects. Leary et al. wrote about this in The Psychedelic Experience as the 'plastic doll phase.' These aspects can be highly instructive in that one becomes detached from one's ordinary identification with the emotional tincturing of our intellectual awareness. It comes across as alien at first, and the medical model obviously considers them to be pathological (socially non-conformist to emotional cultural norms). Nevertheless, my familiarity with these forms of detachment have actually given me greater clinical objectivity and self-control in otherwise profoundly upsetting situations. So, as William james said in 1901, as a result of a Nitrous Oxide experience, which doubtlessly resulted in such a derealization/depersonalization. I bold the relevant statement about practical application of such states, after their mastery:

"Some years ago I myself made some observations on this aspect of nitrous oxide intoxication, and reported them in print. One conclusion was forced upon my mind at that time, and my impression of its truth has ever since remained unshaken. It is our normal waking consciousness, rational consciousness as we call it, is but one special type of consciousness, whilst all about it, parted from it by the filmiest of screens, there lie potential forms of consciousness entirely different. We may go through life without suspecting their existence; but apply the requisite stimulus, and at a touch they are there in all their completeness, definite types of mentality which probably somewhere have their field of application and adaptation. No account of the universe in its totality can be final which leaves these other forms of consciousness quite discarded. How to regard them is the question,-for they are so discontinuous with ordinary consciousness." - The Varieties of Religious Experience

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i responded but you never got back... i bumped this hoping maybe you could at least provide direction on what would be the right book of james that accurately describes his nitrous experience. it seemed pretty important to you to point it out. i'd like to know what it is that fascinated you.

Kensho

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circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

What say you?

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circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

What say you?

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dustinthewind13 said:

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lolwut said:
I'm currently reading Carlos Castaneda 1, and he talks about how to be a man of knowledge you must first overcome 4 enemies: fear, clarity, power, and old age. Only once they are overcome, can you become "a man of knowledge".

I think old age ties in directly to death anxiety, for me, I was sitting there and thought "so this is my body, this is my house, and this is my life. May as well put it to good use".

Yep worst case scenario is we die. And people get so stressed in life.

There's nothing wrong with not being enlightened, I don't see a separation between me and the rest of us, and most souls in this incarnation won't be enlightened. The enlightened state is the same as the natural state anyway, in this way everyone is already enlightened. I think there are a lot of ego games and linguistics that can get you tied up into knots or caught in irrational paradox just by talking about it. I'm not saying don't talk about it, but as a topic of discussion, almost everyone is going to have their own ideas. I mean, if you had of said, "Screw the State The Homeless Man Is Always In" you would of gotten different responses.

Don't forget "I am you and what I see is me", enlightened or not, we're the same unique fruit of the earth.

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There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

---

"Ignorance is bliss Besides get off the trip happiness is just a myth." And I guarantee you, throw a death-vibe their way, or confront them with their mortality directly, and you will see their fears.

What you don't see is everyone else's insecurities, their fears, problems, suffering, ignorance, desire, and so on. These are the things that people on the middle road or an equivalent path eradicate, and do their best to eradicate it for others too (out of compassion/bodhicitta).

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Me likey.

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Thanks Most importantly, if time's are rough, DONT GIVE UP! You don't need to be obsessed with the search, that can happen and it can become an ego trip, but it's worth pushing through the dark to see the light. It's always darkest before dawn.

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circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

What say you?

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Sound to me that you've already reached your own kind of sincere enlightenment.
The greatest thing blocking the path to true non-overrated enlightenment, is the belief that it is something rare.

The jobs degrees and mortgages are variables depending on the way our society currently functions, but i see your point.

Why are you under the impression that spiritual enlightenment canot be achieved doing these things?

Usually spiritual enlightenment is a way of dealing with existential pressure and the fear of dying by coming to understand certain things about yourself. It's all very healthy for the mind actually.

You're the rare kind of individuals that have attained such a state of enlightenment that you see the superficial outlines of the modernized and almost institutionalized means of mass enlightenment that preach knowledge. That gives you a false reality that someone could actually give you a universal key to help you figure out the clister fuck of a puzzle that we all are. I applaude you!

Now you should just realize the folly of seeking conflict were none is needed. Some are very protective of their path to enlightenment. Shaking it thus way can be quite uncomfortable for some. Be understanding, be kind, be wise most of all. Some people might say "well you can live like that, ignorance is bliss" i believe that these people are sadly unaware of the true meaning of ignorance. Admittance to not knowing something or being currently incapable to know, rejection of unnecessary variables of empirical knowledge of other more directed spiritual beliefs is not ignorance. Far from it. 

Good luck to you friend. Many here will misunderstand you spread the love, live your life and watch it unfold. Youre bound to come across your very own path of enlightenment. For true enlightenment comes with sincerity, not practicing something like a hobby. And you seem to be more sincere with yourself than most. For that you have earned my respects.

Just know, that an enlightened human being is indeed a normal human being. A confused, craving and sad human being lacks the property of both spiritual and intellectual enlightenment.

Love

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White Beard said:

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circastes said:
Get jobs, get degrees, get mortagages, get life long partners, be friendly, be nice, don't over-consume, get into fitness, smile, develop intense interests, and generally make the most of being first-worlders. Then die. If there's next, there's next, if not, how bad can it be? Screw this business of enlightenment, of superiority, elitism, or at best, weird consciousness. Not to put anyone or anything down, but what's wrong with NOT being enlightened? There are so many happy, yappy ordinary folk with no dread of death. They just "get with it"...

What say you?

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Well, sometimes I can be absorbed in meditation, or other times I can go about being with the family or being with friends, or other times I can be high as shit on some drugs. I think part of the fun for me especially is that I can jump back and forth between exploring different realities. Okay, I'll be with friends, then I'll want to do something else. Why pin it down?

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