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 Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,175
Last seen: 16 hours, 54 minutes
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 Re: the philosophy of reincarnation  [Re: soldatheero]
#15213530 - 10/12/11 01:55 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Bryn Wyvern
Warrior
Registered: 10/10/11
Posts: 21
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Kickle]
#15215594 - 10/12/11 08:38 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
it's not that I don't see it, it's that I don't trust anything 100% because I really doubt I have 100% of the information. I leave it as open as I can while playing along with the guessing game.
When early inventors were dreaming of creating flying machines that could lift them into the realm of the birds, they worried that they did not have adequate information - but they knew that flight MUST be possible, because they could see creatures doing it every day. Something about the bird's wing, its weight, its shape and its motion held the secret to flight.
With incomplete information, many aviators took to cow paddocks on bicycles with wings, to have a crack at the dream... until somebody discovered that if you curve the top of a wing, whilst keeping the underside flat, the air current traveling over the wing takes longer than the air current moving under the wing - and the wing will lift into the pressure cavity created. Then all you need is a power source strong enough and light enough to move the machine horizontally through space.
My point is: there comes a moment when you step off the fence into full-blown knowledge, gained from direct experience, revelation and logical extrapolation. This applies to issues like reincarnation, just as it does to aviation.
I have read enough direct testimony of past lives in the psychiatric files of Stanislav Grof (who has an awesome 40 year career behind him, working with patients on LSD) to confidently say that past life data, emerging from "holotropic" journeys into the subconscious on psychedelics, is a reality for many people during psychedelic assisted psycho-analyisis. In many cases, patients were able to describe whole periods of history, which they had no previous knowledge of, and even the exact circumstances of particular personality deaths, which could later be verified through historical research. Quite mind-blowing stuff.
So that's the data side of the issue, which I feel has been pretty exhaustively covered by Grof. The other side of this issue is direct, personal experience and revelation, on psychedelics. Well, there (naturally) I can only speak for myself. But my experiences of the infinite consciousness of the One, has led me to know that I am indeed eternal, living an eternal life - I am, to use religious terminology: God on Earth - and my deep hunch, bordering on knowing, is this:
When little mortal beings, going about their endlessly reincarnating mortal lives, FINALLY come to this moment of self-realization, it signals revolutionary change for the entire species. "Enlightenment" has, of course, happened throughout history - but we have never been at this particular point in both technological and spiritual development, which affords massive opportunities for enormous pandemic change.
Like those turn-of-the-century aviators, we KNOW that to live an eternal, mortal life, in finite humanoid form, but with conscious access to the indwelling mind of the Universe - is possible. We have imagined it, seen it in astral flight, understood the excitement of what it will mean for civilization and inter-stellar space travel... but we are still peddling our flying contraptions over cow pats and crashing into hedges.  Many of us know that the time of divinely gifted wizard-druid-shaman-X Men is nearly here. It must be, so many of us are borderline awesome already :-)
I think it's okay to be struggling with this stuff. And I'm at peace with where we are - but I can't help dreaming of those inter-stellar skies, and at the moment I'm working on a cool idea for growing astral wings 
Bryn.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,175
Last seen: 16 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Bryn Wyvern]
#15216499 - 10/12/11 11:42 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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My point is: there comes a moment when you step off the fence into full-blown knowledge, gained from direct experience, revelation and logical extrapolation. This applies to issues like reincarnation, just as it does to aviation.
If you really feel this way I encourage you to directly experience death. Nothing stopping you from killing yourself except yourself. I suspect that you're not certain of being eternal when push comes to shove.
I have read enough direct testimony of past lives in the psychiatric files of Stanislav Grof (who has an awesome 40 year career behind him, working with patients on LSD) to confidently say that past life data, emerging from "holotropic" journeys into the subconscious on psychedelics, is a reality for many people during psychedelic assisted psycho-analyisis.
Yeah I've read his works too. I'm not nearly as confident as you. Interesting how that works, isn't it? One person can read it and be completely convinced and confident, another can read it and not be. I wonder why that is? For the record I'm probably one of the only people on these boards to actually have a NDE under my belt and know others who have died and been brought back personally.
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 Cups
technically "here"
Registered: 12/24/09
Posts: 1,924
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Kickle]
#15216638 - 10/13/11 12:06 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
For the record I'm probably one of the only people on these boards to actually have a NDE under my belt
well?
I posted before but in case you missed it I know 2 personally.
1 guy had an amazing time...so much so when he came back, if you will, he had a lawyer draw up a DNR.
the other guy can't remember shit about it.
Neither one is religious in any way as far as I know.
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No more words of wisdom.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,175
Last seen: 16 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Cups]
#15216726 - 10/13/11 12:23 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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yeah I know 2 as well. My own happened when I was very young and I don't remember any of it and it hasn't come up in any psychedelic experience or meditation. The other 2, well, one was from breaking into a school. He broke into the school, slit his wrists on the glass when trying to escape, rode the bike he got there on to a nearby gas station and collapsed bleeding out on the ground. He was conscious but not able to do anything. By the time the ambulance got there he was fading out. He talked about the darkness approaching and the sounds getting more and more distant. It eventually engulfed him and then there was just nothing. Next thing he's coming back to a guy pounding on his chest in the back of the ambulance. When he talks about it he gets very emotional and his voice seems to shake. He's flat out terrified of death.
The other was in a car wreck, went flying head first into the pavement. Died, was resuscitated but left in a coma. He was in a coma for about a month before coming to. When he did come to he had to relearn a lot of things. How to pee, how to walk, how to talk. When the basics were good, the rest was still not all the way there. I actually was with him a whole lot during this period and he was a lot like a little kid. Highly emotional and ill-equipped to do much by himself. He steadily progressed and now if you hadn't known him before you probably wouldn't know anything about his brain damage. He has issues that stand out for anyone who did though. He developed some pretty good OCD behaviors and they directly link to a fear of death. Part of his losses in the accident was his spleen. So he's particularly susceptible to bacterial infections. He will wash his hands until they are bleeding. He will scrub himself raw.
Not the fairy tale stuff that usually gets reported in books, but that's the reality of it.
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: g00ru]
#15216849 - 10/13/11 12:46 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
new lives aren't so much a chance to redeem yourself as they are another forced attempt at redemption. Nobody wants that, much better to achieve liberation in this life while you can....who knows when the next one will come around, or what it will be like, or who you will be like.
Didn't you say "your traits and habits will regroup and carry on"?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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soldatheero
lastirishman
Registered: 03/10/07
Posts: 2,665
Loc: 
Last seen: 21 days, 21 hours
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Poid]
#15217126 - 10/13/11 01:51 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
My point is: there comes a moment when you step off the fence into full-blown knowledge, gained from direct experience, revelation and logical extrapolation. This applies to issues like reincarnation, just as it does to aviation.
Quote:
If you really feel this way I encourage you to directly experience death. Nothing stopping you from killing yourself except yourself. I suspect that you're not certain of being eternal when push comes to shove.
I don't think he means direct experience of the event of death but directly experiencing a new way of conceiving of or even more directly - perceiving reality.. & the reality of immortality is a direct implication of this way of perceiving.
("revelation and logical extrapolation")
Quote:
For the record I'm probably one of the only people on these boards to actually have a NDE under my belt
Interesting..
Quote:
Yeah I've read his works too. I'm not nearly as confident as you. Interesting how that works, isn't it? One person can read it and be completely convinced and confident, another can read it and not be. I wonder why that is?
For me and (I assume Bryn) the data is just sprinkles on the cake as I more so see for myself why I'm eternal via how I perceive my existance in this moment.
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..and may the zelda theme song be with you at all times, amen.
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Bryn Wyvern
Warrior
Registered: 10/10/11
Posts: 21
Last seen: 1 year, 2 months
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Kickle]
#15217387 - 10/13/11 02:56 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Kickle said:
My point is: there comes a moment when you step off the fence into full-blown knowledge, gained from direct experience, revelation and logical extrapolation. This applies to issues like reincarnation, just as it does to aviation.
If you really feel this way I encourage you to directly experience death. Nothing stopping you from killing yourself except yourself. I suspect that you're not certain of being eternal when push comes to shove.
I have read enough direct testimony of past lives in the psychiatric files of Stanislav Grof (who has an awesome 40 year career behind him, working with patients on LSD) to confidently say that past life data, emerging from "holotropic" journeys into the subconscious on psychedelics, is a reality for many people during psychedelic assisted psycho-analyisis.
Yeah I've read his works too. I'm not nearly as confident as you. Interesting how that works, isn't it? One person can read it and be completely convinced and confident, another can read it and not be. I wonder why that is? For the record I'm probably one of the only people on these boards to actually have a NDE under my belt and know others who have died and been brought back personally.
There you are wrong about me, friend. At the very real risk of turning this into "my death experience is bigger than your death experience" - nevertheless, here goes:
I have died six times, on massive doses of Copelandia Cyanescens. I have been to the very core of where we go after death - and returned. Six times. I am certain that I am immortal from direct experience of the infinite light of Universal consciousness, and suicide would be a rather ungrateful way of proving it. I don't have to prove it, certainly not to myself. I have already proven it to myself. How it gets "proven" to others is a much longer story, which begins in forums like this - and may eventually lead to my personal transformation into a hyper-light being. We'll see. Much stranger things have already happened, Horatio.
But back to suicide:
I am blessed and honoured to be here, alive - with the Universal understanding of my infinite nature captured within my daily, mortal experience. I am the point of evolution. I am the reason: so that God can speak to God over a cup of coffee. In our western history, it is so rare for an individual mortal to fully awaken into total divine consciousness, and the point to all this is not to prove an argument, certainly not with suicide.
The point is to live our divinity. To work with the infinite, in full collaboration towards the conscious evolution, development and even physical ascension of our species into beings whose very form may become decided by our own imagination. We are on a rising road into the fruition of individuated consciousness into 100% collaboration with universal consciousness. That takes time, and it's a process. But it is a very real process - and there is enough testimony on this website for that reality to be honoured and respected. To not give someone the benefit of the doubt, when they can even give you the shroom genus and recipe for full enlightenment - and their experience matches thousands of others - is to be petulant.
I've read quite a few of your posts without commenting, because you can sometimes tell where a guy is at, but not quite know which bridge to cross to communicate what you know-understand-have experienced. But here's a bridge I can cross relatively easily:
I am not, to quote you: "completely convinced" by the Stanislav Grof research because I find it mentally satisfying or appealing, or convenient to slot into my own paradigm. Rather, I am deeply impressed by his research because it so accurately describes - and goes a very long way towards explaining - my own experiences. His descriptions of the perinatal matrices, from over 30,000 case files, matches exactly the issues that have arisen during my repeated psychedelic experiences.
The crucible of life is experience. It is the core of knowledge. We may not, at first, understand the full ramifications of an experience, but it is where knowledge begins. We cannot analyze the natural world, until we are in it, experiencing it. But once full 100% blazing personal divinity has been attained (on massive doses of high alkaloid shrooms, for example) then it would be childish to "prove" one's divinity by leaping off a cliff. The point is to explore one's own divinity with the tools of discreet, individuated consciousness. We are the telescope - and when we discover that we are also the eye looking through the telescope, then the fun really starts.
Enlightenment is not a carrot on a stick. It is just the beginning. It is the starter course in an endless banquet of self-discovery.
Bryn.
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The Chronic
Registered: 05/08/04
Posts: 12,022
Loc: 
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: shadowplay]
#15217466 - 10/13/11 03:24 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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The philosophy of reincarnation actually implies that the goal of life is to not continue existing 
The whole teaching of it is that karma keeps you on the rebirth cycle & the goal of spiritual life is to burn off karma & end the cycle (to dispell the illusion of it)
Reincarnation is probably one of the most widely held Yogic beliefs of non Yoga practitioners, almost every human has an inkling of its truth & sees how it could be applicable to the universes cycles
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g00ru
membrane shift
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 17,655
Loc: atlantis
Last seen: 4 days, 18 hours
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Poid]
#15217955 - 10/13/11 09:11 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Poid said:
Quote:
guruu said:
new lives aren't so much a chance to redeem yourself as they are another forced attempt at redemption. Nobody wants that, much better to achieve liberation in this life while you can....who knows when the next one will come around, or what it will be like, or who you will be like.
Didn't you say "your traits and habits will regroup and carry on"?
ahh true, but not exactly the same and you still don't know for certain how it's gonna look. That's what's scary about the idea to me...if you don't get out in this life, how do you know that you ever will?
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,175
Last seen: 16 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Bryn Wyvern] 2
#15218327 - 10/13/11 11:05 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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I have died six times, on massive doses of Copelandia Cyanescens.
Nope, you haven't. But feel free to make new definitions for words as you go 
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,175
Last seen: 16 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: soldatheero]
#15218382 - 10/13/11 11:15 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
soldatheero said:
For me and (I assume Bryn) the data is just sprinkles on the cake as I more so see for myself why I'm eternal via how I perceive my existance in this moment.
That's good. For me it's inconclusive, hand-picked data that was collected by one man driven to present exactly that data in relation to a theory he has. Christians too have a theory of what's going on and find evidence for it all the time. I'm sure you can find books on that view too if you want. And many do and find it very conclusive because it supports what they already believe.
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Icelander
The Minstrel in the Gallery
Registered: 03/15/05
Posts: 80,499
Loc: underbelly
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: The Chronic]
#15218505 - 10/13/11 11:42 AM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Reincarnation is probably one of the most widely held Yogic beliefs of non Yoga practitioners, almost every human has an inkling of its truth & sees how it could be applicable to the universes cycles
Actually I have very few friends who believe that the idea makes any sense at all. They instead feel the belief in reincarnation is due to death anxiety and our refusal to acknowledge our animal and temporary nature within the process of evolution.
I suspect that beyond the (imo) death anxiety belief in heaven and hell you would find a limited number in middle america that believe in reincarnation.
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"People convince themselves of their own lies, becoming victims of their own inventions as they begin to direct their lives by standards of behavior, ideas, feelings, or instincts which do not correspond to their inner reality. What is truly serious in this matter is that the individual loses all points of reference regarding what comprises truth, and what comprises lies. He becomes used to considering as true only that which is convenient for his personal interests; everything that is in opposition to his self-esteem or in conflict with already established prejudices, he considers false."
- John Baines
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r72rock
Learning to Grow
Registered: 01/07/09
Posts: 863
Loc: Chicago
Last seen: 19 days, 16 hours
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Icelander]
#15218665 - 10/13/11 12:27 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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My Philosophy teacher told me that 1/3 people in the world believe in reincarnation... I don't know how true that is. I can't find any statistics on it.
As for Americans who believe in reincarnation, the only thing that I could find that wasn't totally unreliable was wikipedia. The quoted source was some book, so I couldn't really find it. But, according to the wikipedia on reincarnation:
Quote:
According to a 2005 Gallup poll 20 percent of U.S. adults believe in reincarnation. Recent surveys by the Barna Group, a Christian research nonprofit organization, have found that a quarter of U.S. Christians, including 10 percent of all born-again Christians, embrace the idea.
I'm curious how many people believe in reincarnation these days.
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Refraining from all evil, not clinging to birth and death, working in deep compassion for all sentient beings, respecting those over you and pitying those below you, without any detesting or desiring, worrying or lamentation - this is what is called Buddha. Do not search beyond it. - Dōgen
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g00ru
membrane shift
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 17,655
Loc: atlantis
Last seen: 4 days, 18 hours
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Icelander]
#15218768 - 10/13/11 12:51 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
Icelander said:
I suspect that beyond the (imo) death anxiety belief in heaven and hell you would find a limited number in middle america that believe in reincarnation.
Why are having death anxiety and a belief in reincarnation not mutually exclusive? I can harbor anxiety over my eventual demise, and still rationally believe in reincarnation due to the experiences I've had.
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Noteworthy
Sophyphile
Registered: 10/05/08
Posts: 5,599
Last seen: 4 months, 27 days
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: g00ru]
#15218796 - 10/13/11 12:58 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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yeah but you would have even more death anxiety if you thought you werent going to REALLY die
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,175
Last seen: 16 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: g00ru]
#15218863 - 10/13/11 01:13 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
Quote:
Icelander said:
I suspect that beyond the (imo) death anxiety belief in heaven and hell you would find a limited number in middle america that believe in reincarnation.
Why are having death anxiety and a belief in reincarnation not mutually exclusive? I can harbor anxiety over my eventual demise, and still rationally believe in reincarnation due to the experiences I've had.
Because experiences became evidence for beliefs of the afterlife rather than evidence for what actually happened.
Say for example I see a white light when I'm near death. That's evidence for the appearance of a white light when I was near death. It is not evidence for a white light appearing when near death (generalized). Say I feel that the white light is God. That is evidence that I feel the white light I saw when near death is God. This does not make the white light I saw when near death, God (generalized). It does not mean that when people die there is a white light that will feel like God (generalized).
It's the generalizations that IMO suggest being driven by death anxiety. That white light would be God for you too. We're all God's children. Drop everything guys I have the most important thing to tell you, we all need to follow the Bible's teachings. Oh, that guy who didn't experience it, I don't care. He just doesn't know. He has farther to go. If he followed the Bible he would find the light.
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g00ru
membrane shift
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 17,655
Loc: atlantis
Last seen: 4 days, 18 hours
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Kickle]
#15218890 - 10/13/11 01:19 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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What if my experience is that I felt completely enveloped in love and bliss coming from outside my ego when I concentrated on my feeling of "i am."? See, that's an experience where the fundamental information it imparts already tells you so much...it tells you that love and bliss arises from your own self, and that your self has no causal boundaries.
But still, if I had a NDE and saw a white light, I'd probably be much more open to the idea of God. At a certain point, are you doubting your experience or doubting yourself?
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,175
Last seen: 16 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: g00ru]
#15218906 - 10/13/11 01:23 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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If that's your experience I think it's great. I also don't think it's everyone's experience and so it's a bad idea to generalize it as everyone's reality, or even something that everyone can experience.
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,175
Last seen: 16 hours, 54 minutes
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Re: the philosophy of reincarnation [Re: Kickle]
#15218952 - 10/13/11 01:33 PM (1 year, 8 months ago) |
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At a certain point, are you doubting your experience or doubting yourself?
I think that's a really good question. Why would we need to convince others if we're already sure?
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