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 5-HT2A
Registered: 01/30/10
Posts: 1,794
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 Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? 
#14622568 - 06/16/11 03:06 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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http://www.alternet.org/drugs/151294/is_there_a_place_for_atheists_in_alcoholics_anonymous/?page=entire
A long-simmering feud is spreading around the world, after one AA establishment voted to expel two atheist/agnostic groups in Canada.
Was Alcoholics Anonymous meant to be a mosaic or a melting pot? Does its culture embrace one and all who have a desire to stop drinking, or is the intention to blend everyone into a single AA homogeneity? These were the questions raised by a recent furor in Toronto, where two AA meetings were banished from the city’s official directory for catering to atheist and agnostic members with an adapted version of the 12 Steps. Not surprisingly, given AA's reach, the controversy has spread around the world.
"Just tell me what to do ’cause I hurt so bad," was David R.’s attitude when he first joined AA. “I really wanted to stop drinking and I was truly ready to ‘go to any length’—and I did.” The trouble was that God “as we understood Him” meant, in David’s case, no God at all. “Because I am a people-pleaser, I faked it with the theistic elements, half-knowing I was faking," he says. "I was afraid that I would drink if I didn't. I am grateful to be sober. I couldn't have done it without AA: the meetings, the support of some understanding people and activities not related to drinking.”
You sense a “but” coming next. Says David: “There are many concepts that didn't seem right, helpful or logical to me, right from the beginning. They didn't fit my experience of how I got sober and was staying sober.” Having worked through, and taken others through, the 12 Steps, he heard about an agnostic group—one of Toronto’s first “Freethinker” meetings, called Beyond Belief—and checked it out.
“Because I had been so compliant in traditional AA meetings,” he says, “I found it difficult to hear people complain about ‘the God thing’ and how they had felt excluded at other meetings. I was uncomfortable when people questioned AA dogma, or were firmly atheist. I went through a period of not feeling at home in either Beyond Belief or traditional meetings; I called myself ‘agnostic’ in the strict sense of ‘not knowing and not possible to know.’”
Gradually, he had an attitude adjustment. “The main thing I got from Beyond Belief at first was the concept that AA didn't know everything, that there were people with very long-term sobriety who questioned core dogma and didn't get drunk or struck by lightning. Eventually that realization became very liberating.”
As a Secular Humanist, David is now an active member of Beyond Belief and recently served as group secretary, responsible for the AA literature supply, making weekly announcements and handling the group’s monthly commitment to take the AA message into a detox at a local hospital. His initial hope that the agnostic position can strengthen the will to sobriety, rather than threaten it, has grown into a conviction. “The purpose of rational thought and skepticism is not to comfort, but to uncover the truth," he says. "My sobriety feels safer the more based on truth and rational thinking it becomes.”
David was part of a growth surge for Beyond Belief, which started with a dozen members who agreed on a format of ideas posted by some of the other North American and European agnostic groups that have been welcoming AA members since 1975. Every meeting started with this preamble:
"This group of AA attempts to maintain a tradition of free expression, and conduct a meeting where alcoholics may feel free to express any doubts or disbeliefs they may have, and to share their own personal form of spiritual experience, their search for it, or their rejection of it. We do not endorse or oppose any form of religion or atheism. Our only wish is to assure suffering alcoholics that they can find sobriety in AA without having to accept anyone else's beliefs or having to deny their own."
Beyond Belief attracted up to 50 attendees at its Thursday meetings, and added a Saturday evening Step-study. A new group, We Agnostics, also started on Tuesday nights. Each group had its share of 25-to-35-year sober members, living proof that AA works without God. David and his comrades also witnessed half a dozen one-year celebrations from members who had found that the new groups succeeded for them, when others had failed. Agnostic AA was working in Toronto.
Only for literalists, it wasn’t AA at all. Tradition Three—“The only requirement for membership is a desire to stop drinking”—wasn’t their focus. It was “God as we understand Him.” They took this to mean that a primary requirement for being classified as an AA group was a belief in some sort of God. No God? No AA.
So where does that leave Hindus, Taoists, Native Americans, Buddhists, Humanists and the many other non-monotheistic creeds in our culture? Atheists aren’t the only “No God, please” people who struggle with alcoholism.
Members from several local God-focused AAs started talking about how to put a stop to this agnostic “sect,” and got in touch with the General Service Office’s Mary Claire Lunch. She told them, “What the other AA group does is none of your group’s business. Taking another group’s inventory with regard to the Traditions is just not done. What a slippery slope that could be! You might offer to bring this observation about the other group changing the Steps to the attention of your Area Delegate.”
So Robb W., Panel 61 Delegate for Area 83, was the next to hear from the aggrieved parties. His response, a precise parsing of the fellowship's abstruse Traditions, is worth quoting in full, above all for his final sentence, which could not have been more conclusive or less ambiguous:
"I have received numerous emails and phone calls about a particular group in the GTA that is using their own version of the 12 Steps. The only rules that we have in Alcoholics Anonymous are those which we impose upon ourselves. We do not force people (or groups, districts or areas) to conform to our will. While conformity to the principles set out in our 12 Steps is suggested, it is still only a suggestion.
"That being said, Tradition Four states that ‘Each Group is autonomous except in matters affecting other groups or AA as a whole.’ Many things are done in AA groups, districts and areas under the banner of 'group autonomy.' This is rightly so although we need keep in mind the second half of the Tradition: ‘except in matters affecting other Groups or AA as a whole.’ It is the responsibility of the General Service Conference to preserve the integrity of the 12 Steps and 12 Traditions of Alcoholics Anonymous.
"If a group chooses to use its own interpretation of our Steps and Traditions, they should have the freedom to do so. However, this should be kept within that group for those who agree and not placed in the public domain as representing or related to Alcoholics Anonymous.
"We need always keep in mind that wherever two people gather to share and recover from Alcoholism, they may be called an AA Group provided that, as a group, they have no other purpose or affiliation.
"There is only one requirement for membership in Alcoholics Anonymous and it does not include belief in God."
And that might well have been that. But the anti-agnostic contingent somehow found in this letter a mandate to ask the Greater Toronto Area Intergroup to strike the two GSO-sanctioned groups from their directory. And so, with the support of about 30 other groups—in a city of about 200 groups and over 500 meetings—the agnostic AA groups were cast out and denied all future AA services and publicity. Quoted in The Toronto Star, a supporter of the Intergroup action said of the agnostic AAs: “They’ve changed [the Steps] to their own personal needs. They should never have been listed in the first place.”
Across the continent in California, Doug L. had a comparable experience. He lives in South Orange County now, but got sober in the hipper Laguna Beach area. “Sobriety was good. I spent much time with my sponsor discussing my higher power," he recalls. "He was into yoga and encouraged me to get serious about my calling to be a Buddhist practitioner.”
Moving to a new town meant a new AA environment. “It did not take long for people to realize I was not going to accept a Christian concept of God," Doug says. "The more I tried to help newcomers who questioned the God stuff, the more I alienated myself in the fellowship. You see, we have a lot of fundamentalist Christians in South County.”
Doug’s attempts to start a Freethinker meeting met with hostility. “When I posted a notice about AA Freethinkers online, members would come immediately behind me and tear it down. When I discussed the idea, I was told I was going to get drunk if I didn't admit I was powerless! The idea of removing God from the 12 Steps was met with righteous indignation.”
Soon Doug was read the riot act by his fellow 12-Steppers: “I was told that our Intergroup would not list any Freethinker or agnostic meetings. I was told that I was not to discuss Freethinker issues. I was told that AA is all-inclusive and there was no need to have splinter groups; I reminded the Steering Committee that our meeting directly lists separate gay meetings. I am now labeled a troublemaker.”
Still committed to establishing a Freethinker group in his area, Doug now works the 12 Steps “on concurrent paths with the 12 Steps of Buddhism—there are many similarities between the two sets of steps.” But there are some differences, too. “The teachings of the Buddha tell me I am not powerless.”
AA had one million members when agnostic groups joined the scene in 1975. That figure doubled in the next 25 years. New York, San Francisco and Chicago are examples of cities where groups that accept God and groups that reject God can tolerate each other. But in the last 10 years AA has been shrinking. According to the GSO service manual, membership dropped from 2,160,013 in 2000 to 2,044,655 in 2008, a fall of 5.6%. Is the 76-year-old fellowship experiencing shrinking pains? And is there a need for a scapegoat?
The anonymously-authored White Paper on Non-Believers was circulated last year to Intergroup reps and Executive Committee members. It makes a passionate plea:
"Fellow members, we are allowing in our midst the initiation and promotion of a path called ‘Sobriety without God.’ What if the newcomer of the future is encouraged to choose that selection instead of the traditional 12 Step path? And what if, as a result, he ends up with a somewhat acceptable ‘water-wagon sobriety’ instead of the promised ‘spiritual awakening’ of the 12 Steps? Are we not guilty of duplicity of the highest order and can we any longer think of ourselves as ‘trusted servants?’ After all, the power we are serving is clearly God Himself!"
The White Paper promotes the mythology of how much better AA was in the good old days, when harmony reigned and newcomers all got sober by finding God. Agnosticism wasn’t a creed, but an intellectual holdout from the one truth: God keeps us sober. (But AA would "love" non-believers to health until they got better and found this one truth.)
The problem with this position is that the “one truth” never existed in the first place. Jim B., an AA founder, didn’t believe in a Supreme Being. He was the reason for the only requirement for membership being a desire to stop drinking. He outlived Bill W. and died sober, having brought AA’s message to new cities and new members from Philadelphia to San Diego.
The White Paper argues that two fundamental beliefs cannot coexist in AA, that belief in God is superior to all other creeds, and that believers in AA must suppress or eliminate the agnostic or atheist voice in the fellowship. Otherwise, AA will perish.
Most of AA remains moderate and accommodating, but in the post-Bill Wilson era the voice of moderation hasn’t always won the day. One delegate, who voted against the motion to expel the agnostic groups at the GTA Intergroup, marked the occasion by reading out a definitive statement by Bill W. from the 1946 Grapevine:
"Any two or three alcoholics gathered together for sobriety may call themselves an AA Group. This clearly implies that an alcoholic is a member if he says so; that we can't deny him his membership; that we can't demand from him a cent; that we can't force our beliefs or practices upon him; that he may flout everything we stand for and still be a member. In fact, our Tradition carries the principle of independence for the individual to such an apparently fantastic length that, so long as there is the slightest interest in sobriety, the most unmoral, the most anti-social, the most critical alcoholic may gather about him a few kindred spirits and announce to us that a new Alcoholics Anonymous Group has been formed. Anti-God, anti-medicine, anti-our Recovery Program, even anti-each other—these rampant individuals are still an AA Group if they think so!"
AA faces serious challenges. Just as BP would have preferred to keep the Gulf of Mexico oil debacle inside the boardroom, AA would have preferred what happened in a church basement in North Toronto to remain AA’s little secret. But the story broke in The Toronto Star and went viral. What would once have been an internal matter is now aired in the full sight of the public.
Another challenge is that there are now three times as many atheists in North America as there were in the 1960s. So if AA wants to move away from inclusivity, it will surely be a smaller fellowship when it celebrates its 100-year anniversary.
“AA is a religion in denial,” says Jim Christopher, founder of Secular Organizations for Sobriety (SOS). “Belief in a path of faith can work, and that is great. No one can deny that AA works for a lot of alcoholics.” SOS is a fellowship of 20,000 recovering addicts, 90% of whom have been to AA. “I would be afraid of a 100% intellectual approach, too,” adds Jim, “Becoming addicted isn’t an intellectual process. According to my intellect, booze brought euphoria, a lie that my intellect called a life-affirming experience. Recovery is a fusion of head and gut.” SOS is neutral on religion.
Jerry T., an agnostic AA member from Florida, points out: “AA's history is one of it knowing better and being proven wrong. First it was the women who couldn't be alcoholics, who had to fight for their place. Then it was the non-smokers. Most every specialty meeting had some kind of fight or controversy surrounding its existence. The wonderful thing about our struggle is that it is going to force recognition of a lot of elephants in the room.”
Back in Toronto, David R. has attended SOS since the AA creed divide took place. “I have been alternately angry and sad, yelling and crying. But, like hitting bottom, there's relief, too," he says. "I am livid at the unfairness and injustice. There was no dialogue, no attempt to address the issue of the rewritten 12 Steps, no acknowledgement of the service we've provided and the people we've helped. There was no fellowship, just ideology, power play and dogma. I believe the controversy is less about belief in God, and more about the fact that we challenged power.”
One thing is clear, however: given demographic trends, AA’s power struggle over the "God Question" is far from finished.
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 love2shpongleIRL
Opiophile
Registered: 06/11/11
Posts: 4,784
Last seen: 1 year, 21 days
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: 5-HT2A]
#14622648 - 06/16/11 03:20 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Why is it so difficult for people to practice what they preach?
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Only those who will risk going too far can possibly find out how far one can go.
T. S. Eliot
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blujay
pass it b*ch!
Registered: 04/01/09
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: 5-HT2A]
#14622671 - 06/16/11 03:24 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I have no sympathy for alcoholics. I view them as weak, and pity them. Only the better that such predispositions escape the gene pool... The thing about them is, even those with a high propensity for addictive traits escape their vices through willpower and intellect regularly...
Befitting that their 12-step national program be centered around a core of ignorance and refusal to accept responsibility for one's own actions and the consequences. How American to 'solve' the problem by burying it in foolery and pretending it was some unavoidable demon.
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wat man rly
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hyperjump69
Papa Snatchy
Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 391
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: blujay]
#14622812 - 06/16/11 03:48 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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AA and NA are church based addiction rehab's. They only ask you to believe in a "Power Greater Than You." In other words, something that is larger than you. Since this is posted in a "Shroomery" website, I would have to argue that anyone who has experienced "Shroomery" KNOWS there are no higher powers than ourselves. WE are God experiencing Himself. In a physical form. From that we can conclude that the entire program just allows a person in need to recognize that fact. They are held in church basements or rooms. They allow someone with no hope to understand they are not powerless. And to recognize ego.
Enlightenment is awakening in action. If it helps them, so be it. I understand the context as relating to "other" opinions.
Everyone is entitled to worship "whatever" Higher Power they choose. When you are so addicted to a drug you make that your idol, you forget you ARE the idol. You are in control. People that attend are just lost and need a drug-free way to realize WHO they are.
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This link will drive you NUTS-------> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKYw0XJfzO4&feature=BFa&list=LLimI46qikD80&index=4
Sorry I don't conform to your idea of reality. Now go away before I bitch-slap you.
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Azure Essence
ॐ |MagicBonerTonic| ॐ
Registered: 10/03/10
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Loc: PNW
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: blujay]
#14622833 - 06/16/11 03:53 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I also have no sympathy for alcoholics, and dont view it as a disease, but it's better as a medical condition then as a crime.
Also, this just proves AA doesnt give a shit if you stop drinking. It's become a business just like most rehabs, it's not there to help people, its there to make money and impose its ideas on others.
otherwise alcoholics of any creed would be accepted, but alas.
Nevermind AA has been proven time and again to be an awful method for rehabilitation. So instead of all these people drinking all day, they just get to TALK about it, but not use it... meaning their whole lives are STILL controlled by alcohol, long after thet put down the bottle. Very counter-productive
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Edited by Azure Essence (06/16/11 04:08 PM)
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Azure Essence
ॐ |MagicBonerTonic| ॐ
Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 4,375
Loc: PNW
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: blujay]
#14622839 - 06/16/11 03:55 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
blujay said:
Befitting that their 12-step national program be centered around a core of ignorance and refusal to accept responsibility for one's own actions and the consequences. How American to 'solve' the problem by burying it in foolery and pretending it was some unavoidable demon.
I fucking LOVE this, so goddamn true
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blujay
pass it b*ch!
Registered: 04/01/09
Posts: 5,101
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: hyperjump69]
#14622879 - 06/16/11 04:02 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
hyperjump69 said:
AA and NA are church based addiction rehab's. They only ask you to believe in a "Power Greater Than You." In other words, something that is larger than you. Since this is posted in a "Shroomery" website, I would have to argue that anyone who has experienced "Shroomery" KNOWS there are no higher powers than ourselves. WE are God experiencing Himself. In a physical form. From that we can conclude that the entire program just allows a person in need to recognize that fact. They are held in church basements or rooms. They allow someone with no hope to understand they are not powerless. And to recognize ego.
Enlightenment is awakening in action. If it helps them, so be it. I understand the context as relating to "other" opinions.
Everyone is entitled to worship "whatever" Higher Power they choose. When you are so addicted to a drug you make that your idol, you forget you ARE the idol. You are in control. People that attend are just lost and need a drug-free way to realize WHO they are.
Your tomfoolery is no better than theirs. Reality cannot be defined by the twisted and inconsistent experiences of a drugged perception, they by definition do not represent what is actually occurring.
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wat man rly
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hyperjump69
Papa Snatchy
Registered: 05/08/11
Posts: 391
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Last seen: 27 days, 20 hours
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: blujay]
#14623034 - 06/16/11 04:30 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
blujay said:
Quote:
hyperjump69 said:
AA and NA are church based addiction rehab's. They only ask you to believe in a "Power Greater Than You." In other words, something that is larger than you. Since this is posted in a "Shroomery" website, I would have to argue that anyone who has experienced "Shroomery" KNOWS there are no higher powers than ourselves. WE are God experiencing Himself. In a physical form. From that we can conclude that the entire program just allows a person in need to recognize that fact. They are held in church basements or rooms. They allow someone with no hope to understand they are not powerless. And to recognize ego.
Enlightenment is awakening in action. If it helps them, so be it. I understand the context as relating to "other" opinions.
Everyone is entitled to worship "whatever" Higher Power they choose. When you are so addicted to a drug you make that your idol, you forget you ARE the idol. You are in control. People that attend are just lost and need a drug-free way to realize WHO they are.
Your tomfoolery is no better than theirs. Reality cannot be defined by the twisted and inconsistent experiences of a drugged perception, they by definition do not represent what is actually occurring.
If any of you had actually been to a meeting I could understand the difference in opinion. However, knowing that people who went to REALLY get clean do. They are not in control of themselves when they go. They are needing answers as to "why they do it". When they follow the steps, they succeed.
They are NOT a money-making entity by any means. Show up tell me how much money they make. It's people trying to help someone who showed up the best they can.
When the 12th step is reached they understand they are not a single being, but a collective soul. IMO.
Opinions are like asses.
Everybody's got one and half of them stink.
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This link will drive you NUTS-------> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKYw0XJfzO4&feature=BFa&list=LLimI46qikD80&index=4
Sorry I don't conform to your idea of reality. Now go away before I bitch-slap you.
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Azure Essence
ॐ |MagicBonerTonic| ॐ
Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 4,375
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: hyperjump69]
#14623068 - 06/16/11 04:37 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Well ok, not money, but this just goes to show they only care about the addicts that are part of 'their' group(the us versus them thing)
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bait_
Not a Stranger
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 2,114
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: Azure Essence]
#14623333 - 06/16/11 05:23 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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i hate people on this site who despise alcohol and alcoholics while they themselves are roasting bowl after bowl and not thinking twice about it.
those who say alcoholism isn't a disease are so full of shit. -- http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art.asp?articlekey=26119
groups of people form like-minded ideas and when ideas conflict with theirs they try to put down said ideas any way they can.
(a perfect example is the pro-pot vs. anti-pot)
and blujay reality CAN BE defined by the twisted and inconsistent experiences of a drugged perception, they by definition DO represent what is actually occurring (in the person's mind/perception).
(see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Realism)
i guess it just pisses me off that a large majority of people on this site show more sympathy for those addicted to opiates/etc than alcohol.
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Azure Essence
ॐ |MagicBonerTonic| ॐ
Registered: 10/03/10
Posts: 4,375
Loc: PNW
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: bait_]
#14623420 - 06/16/11 05:35 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I know about a hundred people with real diseases(cancer) that if they could make that disease go away by not drinking a certain beverage, would do so in a heart beat.
It really devalues the people with real diseases when you say a poor lifestyle CHOICE is a disease.
Also, I dont have sympathy for any addicts, so there's that. I actually moderatly enjoy alcohol, but I dont fuck up my life and put my family in misery just to enjoy it. That's a poor lifestyle choice.
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Edited by Azure Essence (06/16/11 05:36 PM)
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bait_
Not a Stranger
Registered: 04/24/07
Posts: 2,114
Loc: Here & Now
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: Azure Essence]
#14623435 - 06/16/11 05:37 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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it not so much a choice as people are predisposed to it -- some people are predisposed to breast cancer/prostate cancer etc.
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12468
Stranger
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: blujay]
#14623783 - 06/16/11 06:37 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
blujay said:
I have no sympathy for alcoholics. I view them as weak, and pity them. Only the better that such predispositions escape the gene pool... The thing about them is, even those with a high propensity for addictive traits escape their vices through willpower and intellect regularly...
This just goes to show how little you know about the true nature of addiction.
Next time you are crying your eyes out because you can't figure out why you're on the way to the dealers or the liquor store AGAIN, and you think only killing yourself will help because you CAN'T STOP, then I will consider you qualified to make a remark like this
When you've got a real full-blown addiction, your willpower is worth about as much as a belief in god - jack fucking shit.
Hopefully you never have to learn about this the hard way - people way more brilliant than yourself (they do exist) have lost all to their vices
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Seriously_Spaced
Psychedelic Lover
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Posts: 2,124
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: 5-HT2A]
#14623972 - 06/16/11 07:18 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I belive that when a difference in religon keeps an individual from recovering from ANY drug/alcohol because the AA's "rules" about religoin thats going to far.Any Addict has to be given the chance to recover in my opinion.To keep people that need help from the program is not only selfish of AA but its also extremely intolerant
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All you need is love
I believe in everything until it's disproved. So I believe in fairies, the myths, dragons. It all exists, even if it's in your mind. Who's to say that dreams and nightmares aren't as real as the here and now?-John Lennon
I'm not going to change the way I look or the way I feel to conform to anything. I've always been a freak. So I've been a freak all my life and I have to live with that, you know. I'm one of those people.
-John Lennon
Life is like a dang old rubix cube you get one side right you mess up the other-Boomhauer
To do list-Ketamine , Mushrooms,LSD :,Salvia ,DMT,DXM ,Cocaine ,2c-e ,Molly ,E,MXE, 4-Aco-DMT, 25inbome,6-APB and 5-meo-dalt
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HardTrippin
NewbGrower
Registered: 11/05/09
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: Azure Essence]
#14624127 - 06/16/11 07:49 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Azure Essence said:
I know about a hundred people with real diseases(cancer) that if they could make that disease go away by not drinking a certain beverage, would do so in a heart beat.
It really devalues the people with real diseases when you say a poor lifestyle CHOICE is a disease.
Also, I dont have sympathy for any addicts, so there's that. I actually moderatly enjoy alcohol, but I dont fuck up my life and put my family in misery just to enjoy it. That's a poor lifestyle choice.
It makes me sad to know people as closed-minded and ignorant as you exist on this site/ When I was 16 I started doing coke, then my girl friend of 2 years slept with a trucker at a gas station for money. A few months down the road I was poppin OC 80's like candy. Fast forward about another year and I was 120 pounds, 5.11", and was shooting up meth almost every day. I am much better now, however i know first hand how easy it is to get sucked into a world where your options start to disappear and substance is all you have left.
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5-HT2A
Registered: 01/30/10
Posts: 1,794
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: blujay]
#14624630 - 06/16/11 09:23 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
blujay said:
I have no sympathy for alcoholics. I view them as weak, and pity them. Only the better that such predispositions escape the gene pool... The thing about them is, even those with a high propensity for addictive traits escape their vices through willpower and intellect regularly...
Befitting that their 12-step national program be centered around a core of ignorance and refusal to accept responsibility for one's own actions and the consequences. How American to 'solve' the problem by burying it in foolery and pretending it was some unavoidable demon.
Calm down, have some dip.
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 Butt-Head
Drizzle
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: 5-HT2A]
#14624776 - 06/16/11 09:45 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Ibogaine
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"Cause I've got more rhymes than Carl Sagan's got turtlenecks"
Free Spore Ring Canada
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MyOwnReality
OrigionalPranksta
Registered: 04/11/05
Posts: 172
Loc: The Road to Everywhere
Last seen: 7 months, 17 days
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: Butt-Head]
#14625814 - 06/17/11 01:13 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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You know, I use to think like many of you here: addicts are the scourge, their minds are not powerful enough to overcome. Through out my life I have walked a fine line between recreationally using drugs and losing my shit, and while I've never fell off that line I know many who have.
Drug addiction and compulsion literally rewires your neural pathways, your the pleasure center of your brain gets whacked and everything reinforces use. You use when you're happy, you use when you're sad, everything is a good reason to use. You develop triggers like post traumatic stress disorder, except for with addiction those triggers are your every day life: walking into the corner store, or through a certain part of town. The addict tells himself: you know I haven't used in a long time, I can have this one drink, or smoke a 20 dollar rock and be just fine... but once that neural loop is activated it just spirals down until something breaks the cycle.
These things can be rewired, but for some the only way to avoid calamity is to avoid all together.
As far as AA is concerned: those guys are a cult, but some people really need that. I say the more power to them. As far as this silly political dispute, well it's just dumb.
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Darklight203
Same Shit
Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 1,349
Loc: Nome, Alaska
Last seen: 1 month, 1 day
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: Azure Essence]
#14626008 - 06/17/11 01:53 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Azure Essence said:
I know about a hundred people with real diseases(cancer) that if they could make that disease go away by not drinking a certain beverage, would do so in a heart beat.
It really devalues the people with real diseases when you say a poor lifestyle CHOICE is a disease.
Also, I dont have sympathy for any addicts, so there's that. I actually moderatly enjoy alcohol, but I dont fuck up my life and put my family in misery just to enjoy it. That's a poor lifestyle choice.
The human brain doesn't reach maturity until 25 years old. Not everyone is raised with the right tools to function. Some are fucked from the outset. Addiction is a disease that claims more lives than cancer or probably a dozen other diseases combined. Your cancer friends would love to not drink and be cured, but stating it simply like this doesn't make it so.
You're digging yourself deep into your opinion, and stating it as a fact also doesn't make it so. Dopamine is a hell of a drug. Getting your brain used to dopamine in turn makes your brain produce less. Some people start drinking because they're in a deep depression or anger and don't stop because it's all that helps them not hurt for a while. All the while, they would rather drink/snort/whatever than to take advice, because we all think we know what we are/want/need.
We can save our judgement for eachother because what we know and what we think we know are so far removed from eachother, it's mind boggling. I'm not saying I know more than you on the subject, but I certainly think I do. I am not above being wrong, however.
I'm on the inside of addiction right now. Drinking is my primary problem. I've lost an uncle to alcohol. He was at a party out of town when his girlfriend fell into a freezing river. Everyone was drinking, probably drunk. He jumped in to save her. She's alive today, but my uncle isn't. He was found washed up frozen on the bank a few days later.
It's not a life choice if you don't know how to choose the right things. Many of these addicts you have no pity for were abused in one way or another. Raped, molested, beaten, talked down to by everyone. Or they had someone close to them die, their wife left them....There's lots of things we just aren't prepared for, and you can't prepare for everything.
I'm sorry, that was long winded, but I'm touchy on the subject. I tried to write without sounding upset, honest =P
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In ancient times, when demons roamed with man, They hunted, loved and lost, hand in hand, As time went on, the difference between them faded. You couldn't tell anymore, demons and man were related, and some would say the same, but who would like to claim? In time, Gods had even forgot, Demons, too, once love had sought. In times recent I remember, Once I was a man, In my heart I had an ember, I'll relate the best I can but it was snuffed, one distant December. And yet here I stand, no flesh, no bones, no seed or semen, All that's left is this Demon.
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Diacetylmentlegen
Gentleman
Registered: 06/13/10
Posts: 267
Loc: Ireland 
Last seen: 10 months, 14 days
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: Darklight203]
#14627108 - 06/17/11 10:44 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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AA does sound like a load of balls to me.
As an aside though: Yeah, everybody's different etc. like DarkLight said.
Personally I don't understand alcoholism, I've admittedly grown bored of alcohol over the past while but even when I wasn't as much I wouldn't be able to bear feeling ****ed all of the time and don't really understand the appeal. Not that alcoholism is chosen for its appeal exactly, but ultimately I guess in its initial phase it's seen as a better option.
Then again, maybe the OCD gives me the guilty feelings I need to not drink or eat too much 
I'm too situational with drink lately too I think. Some times I can enjoy myself an awful lot and other times it just makes me feel worse with no real obvious reason why. I think maybe it's like psychedelics: set and setting. If I'm not in the right way to drink, there's no point.
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"When I recall it and when I recall various other symptoms... I think the simplest explanation is... that I had these experiences, that they were real... and that they took place outside time." - Christopher Mayhew
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Darklight203
Same Shit
Registered: 08/14/10
Posts: 1,349
Loc: Nome, Alaska
Last seen: 1 month, 1 day
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: Diacetylmentlegen]
#14629505 - 06/17/11 08:13 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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And AA shouldn't be about religion. In Alaska, it's believing in a higher power. The group you attend is most people's higher power, or Love. The Great God Lardicus for crying out loud. You need to believe in something bigger than yourself, it helps put things in perspective. Knowing that your group, your family, your community and support group are there for you. That your life is livable. Not saying that some people don't deserve suicide. There is no "This is the way you live life and that's that." Rapists, killers, thieves, they're all part of life and no matter what, just like Prohibition, you can't get rid of everything. We're here for a limited amount of time, and most of us do what we can with what we got at the time.
If you think life is "supposed" to be "this way", then you're feeding yourself a load of shit or buying it from somewhere.
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In ancient times, when demons roamed with man, They hunted, loved and lost, hand in hand, As time went on, the difference between them faded. You couldn't tell anymore, demons and man were related, and some would say the same, but who would like to claim? In time, Gods had even forgot, Demons, too, once love had sought. In times recent I remember, Once I was a man, In my heart I had an ember, I'll relate the best I can but it was snuffed, one distant December. And yet here I stand, no flesh, no bones, no seed or semen, All that's left is this Demon.
Edited by Darklight203 (06/17/11 08:15 PM)
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Joolz
Registered: 09/19/10
Posts: 3,614
Last seen: 6 months, 16 days
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Re: Is There a Place for Atheists in Alcoholics Anonymous? [Re: Darklight203]
#14629889 - 06/17/11 09:19 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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I am almost always down to drink, which is a trait I have caught onto and am monitoring. The thing about alcohol is it is just some people's drug. Pot, luckily for me, is my drug. The worst thing that happens is the plant matter in your throat isn't that good, and there are some other mental issues you have to overcome, like laziness and etc.
Some people just get drunk and its like me getting high. They just want to do it all day, like I get high all day. Its not that they should be thrown in jail or punished for it, they just need somebody to sit and talk to them about it. A lot of alcoholics might not even know that they are an alcoholic until its too late.
There isn't enough teaching about it imo. There's just people saying yes or no. There's nobody going its okay to drink, just be aware that these things happen and they aren't the kind of things you want in a life. There's just the liquor stores on the corner and the people on TV going "ALCOHOL BAD AAAAAAAAAAAGH". If there's one thing that doesn't exist in this country, its a grey area.
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Prohibition didn't work for God; Eve ate the fruit.
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