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 husmmoor
moshi moshi
Registered: 04/17/11
Posts: 496
Last seen: 1 hour, 21 minutes
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 Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate  [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14632960 - 06/18/11 11:56 AM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Very interesting.  Keep up the innovation/experimentation, Manic Mongrel! 
Edited by husmmoor (06/18/11 11:56 AM)
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 39,269
Loc: USA Mountain Northwest
Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: husmmoor]
#14633042 - 06/18/11 12:19 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate
Honestly, this has as much chance of success as developing a T-Bone steak which a dog won't snatch off the table, if given the chance.
Stated another way, it's like making a food that a person in Dallas will love, but a person in Fort Worth will leave completely alone. It just ain't gonna happen. Sorry. It's the reason we've developed sterile techniques. Research and development is always good, but be aware of the needs of the organism and it's competitors you're researching first.
RR
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semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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 ManicMongrel
Scholar of the highly irrelevant
Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 225
Loc: Across the Atlantic
Last seen: 9 minutes, 38 seconds
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14633267 - 06/18/11 01:35 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate
... be aware of the needs of the organism and it's competitors you're researching first.
RR
Which was the point of fermenting it, its hopefully all fairly composted material, making a less appealing menu. Not everything thrive in compost thats already occupied by shitloads of bacterias and their waste. We'll see soon enough. Its close to fruiting now, suppose its when its most vulnerable.
This sounds a lot like an auto-reply. I'm not exactly challenging classic procedures here, I'm imitating the premises a common wild shroom has, to see why they grow so easily in the wild without being eaten by contams.
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RogerRabbit
Bans for Pleasure
Registered: 03/26/03
Posts: 39,269
Loc: USA Mountain Northwest
Last seen: 1 day, 23 hours
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: ManicMongrel]
#14633572 - 06/18/11 03:00 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
why they grow so easily in the wild without being eaten by contams.
That's why it takes a 200 ton tree in the forest to produce a few pounds of oyster or reishi mushrooms per year, when twice that many mushrooms can be grown on a ten pound straw substrate in six weeks.
In nature, P cubensis grows in cow pastures, but one needs to pick a 100 acre field to get the amount of cubes he can get from a mini-greenhouse in his bedroom. Remember, we're not duplicating nature with mushroom growing the way we do with plant farming. We're improving on it greatly.
One other thing to consider is that breaking down a substrate via composting will make it more suitable for contaminant molds, not less. Trichoderma rarely inhabits fresh material in nature, but once a tree or manure pile, etc., is attacked by other organisms, molds then move in and finish the job.
I'm not trying to be discouraging of research, but rather gently prodding in a different direction.
RR
--------------------
Download Let's Grow Mushrooms
semper in excretia sumus solim profundum variat
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ManicMongrel
Scholar of the highly irrelevant
Registered: 03/14/11
Posts: 225
Loc: Across the Atlantic
Last seen: 9 minutes, 38 seconds
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Re: Fermentation experiment – attempt to make a contamination resistant substrate [Re: RogerRabbit]
#14634061 - 06/18/11 04:36 PM (1 year, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
RogerRabbit said:
Quote:
why they grow so easily in the wild without being eaten by contams.
That's why it takes a 200 ton tree in the forest to produce a few pounds of oyster or reishi mushrooms per year, when twice that many mushrooms can be grown on a ten pound straw substrate in six weeks.
In nature, P cubensis grows in cow pastures, but one needs to pick a 100 acre field to get the amount of cubes he can get from a mini-greenhouse in his bedroom. Remember, we're not duplicating nature with mushroom growing the way we do with plant farming. We're improving on it greatly.
One other thing to consider is that breaking down a substrate via composting will make it more suitable for contaminant molds, not less. Trichoderma rarely inhabits fresh material in nature, but once a tree or manure pile, etc., is attacked by other organisms, molds then move in and finish the job.
I'm not trying to be discouraging of research, but rather gently prodding in a different direction.
RR
I dont believe mushrooms grow in mono-cultures in nature either, I am aware we give one species monopoly on the resources when we farm them. Any celluloses eating fungi will need as much surface area as possible since the crystal fences of celluloses fibers are not broken down very easily which is why wood rot quite slow, same principle give any straw or sawdust based substrate much more yield for the same amount in the form of a woodblock.
I thought the types of trichoderma that mainly causing problems with mushroom farming or any food storage, are the ones specialized on metabolizing high energy compounds for rapid growth and reproduction.
One thing I have observed though, is that food or substrate with bacterial contamination rarely grow mold, rather disintegrate and dry out. I dont exactly claim to be an expert on trichoderma, but I have never seen it grow on dung or other things with high bacterial content, which I take as an indication that it doesnt happen often.
Anyway, I got the idea to see if substrate fermented to resemble dung would have better contamination resistance. I'm not sure if I succeeded at the fermentation completely but, whatever happened it doesn't seem to favor mold as much, since its been exposed to both mold spores and mycelia. It will never be failsafe for mold of course, but if it proves to grow mold less frequently its at least an improvement.
The reason I chose a wild Panaeoulus strain is that it grows very quick and is very common in wet season, I doubt you need a 100 acre field to match a monotub.
Thanks for the reply though, I didn't know typical contamination mold could be secondary decomposers, I had the impression they were prime since they often attack food like fruit, bread, jam and vegetables.
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- Rules and laws are guidelines, to follow them by definition is equivalent to ignoring responsibility
- Let me know if anything in my Trade List got your attention!
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