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Quote: jokefox said: its not a hybrid if its the same thing ,
two dogs is not a hybrid, a tiger and a lion is
2 cubes can never be a hybrid, or a new strain , no one needs more strains, no one cares about your two cube mix
now a cyan and a azure, that would be something to talk about
Nice of you to stop by. I'm glad to see people disagreeing with and criticizing work that isn't mine.
In case you're curious, hybridization has different types, and colloquially in biology, has this generally accepted definition:
"The second type of hybrid consists of crosses between populations, breeds or cultivars within a single species. This meaning is often used in plant and animal breeding, where hybrids are commonly produced and selected because they have desirable characteristics not found or inconsistently present in the parent individuals or populations. This flow of genetic material between populations or races is often called hybridization." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_%28biology%29#Examples_of_species_hybrids
I welcome criticism and commentary, when it's not rude (Jokefox). We are all adults here, yes?
In the scientific community, research critique is very important.
Since no one specifically asked, I'll make something clear: I want to cross a variant of penis envy with a new or otherwise wild strain... one that has been genetically isolated, or is known to be exceptionally homogenous, phenotypically. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/14375925#14375925
What I'm planning to do is no different that RR's cross of PE with Texas, creating the PE6.
So, like I said before, disagree with the research and quotes, RR's PE6 strain and statements about unique qualities of the PE variant, whatever you want. But keep it civil. I'm not going to get drawn into an argument.
If you have a logical disagreement, then state it, with references. If not, kindly stfu.
Registered: 12/22/09 Posts: 6,163 Loc: never where I should be
Re: Got some rattlesnake venom? Trying to make a new strain. Project in the works [Re: CaptainAhab] #14379162 - 04/30/11 09:32 PM (2 years, 19 days ago)
Quote: So, like I said before, disagree with the research and quotes, RR's PE6 strain and statements about unique qualities of the PE variant, whatever you want. But keep it civil. I'm not going to get drawn into an argument.
i will watch this
hey , RR your pe6 is not a hybrid
watch him come and tell me im right cause two of the same things cant be a hybrid all he made was a PE that has some better open caps
you dont need snake venom for that
look at the x7x print, all it is is 7 or 8 different cube LC's combined together and they happened to produce some pinkish (really light) spores so we started trying to isolate that , just like with colombian rust
Quote: So, like I said before, disagree with the research and quotes, RR's PE6 strain and statements about unique qualities of the PE variant, whatever you want. But keep it civil. I'm not going to get drawn into an argument.
i will watch this
hey , RR your pe6 is not a hybrid
watch him come and tell me im right cause two of the same things cant be a hybrid all he made was a PE that has some better open caps
you dont need snake venom for that
look at the x7x print, all it is is 7 or 8 different cube LC's combined together and they happened to produce some pinkish (really light) spores so we started trying to isolate that , just like with colombian rust
You're free to disagree.
Do you have a source?
Here's RR in a thread titled "Mushroom Hybridisation," discussing the issue: http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/13084070 "Or dikaryons. The snake venom only comes into play if you're trying to cross non-compatible strains. RR"
"No, I meant crossing dikaryons directly without saving their respective monokaryons. I've been crossing a lot of commercial shiitake strains lately, hoping to find that 'miracle strain' that will perform wonders in my below ground farm. RR"
RR didn't disagree with the term "hybridization" in this thread.
RR is looking for a way to create a miracle strain.
Doesn't look like you need to run to big mama (RR), now, in my opinion.
Further, if RR is trying to create a new strain from two of the same species, how is that different from what I'm trying to do?
Here's a site talking about the same thing: http://www.krishiworld.com/html/mushroom.html "New superior strains are through selection, hybridization and induced mutations continually introduced by mushroom research laboratories and spawn makers."
Here's an academically published study using the term "hybridization" in reference to crossing strains: http://www.idosi.org/wasj/wasj7%285%29/14.pdf "There is a growing demand for new and improved mushroom strains with better characters including yield. The present study was conducted with the objective of improving mushroom strains using duel culture hybridization technique. Hybridization was achieved by duel culture technique of monospore cultures of two strains (Lanka Oyster and American Oyster) of Oyster mushrooms (Pleurotus ostriatus)."
Quote: jokefox said: all he made was a PE that has some better open caps
What's wrong with me trying to make a strain that has other, desirable characteristics? According to you, it's possible. So why not?
Registered: 03/26/03 Posts: 39,269 Loc: USA Mountain Northwest
Last seen: 2 days, 21 hours
Re: Got some rattlesnake venom? Trying to make a new strain. Project in the works [Re: CaptainAhab] #14379379 - 04/30/11 10:20 PM (2 years, 19 days ago)
Creating a better strain from two dikaryons is a great way to get a better strain. Such would more accurately be called a 'cross', not a hybrid. My problem with the anonymous post above is so-called cube strains are not hybrids when crossed. Dikaryons may or may not be compatible, and if not, snake venom is one method of helping to get a cross. However, I'd never refer to PE6 or the current Redboy which is an original Redboy/PR cross, as hybrids.
Others are free to disagree.
As for comparing shiitake strains with so-called cube 'strains', it shouldn't be done. Shiitake and other commercial edible strains are sold as single sector monocultures, and will always grow and fruit true to strain. When spores are sold as a 'strain', that can't be said any more than it can be said that all people named 'Smith' are going to look alike. RR
Registered: 12/25/09 Posts: 1,815 Last seen: 10 hours, 33 minutes
Re: Got some rattlesnake venom? Trying to make a new strain. Project in the works [Re: RogerRabbit] #14379576 - 04/30/11 11:06 PM (2 years, 19 days ago)
Quote: RogerRabbit said: Creating a better strain from two dikaryons is a great way to get a better strain. Such would more accurately be called a 'cross', not a hybrid. My problem with the anonymous post above is so-called cube strains are not hybrids when crossed. Dikaryons may or may not be compatible, and if not, snake venom is one method of helping to get a cross. However, I'd never refer to PE6 or the current Redboy which is an original Redboy/PR cross, as hybrids.
Others are free to disagree.
As for comparing shiitake strains with so-called cube 'strains', it shouldn't be done. Shiitake and other commercial edible strains are sold as single sector monocultures, and will always grow and fruit true to strain. When spores are sold as a 'strain', that can't be said any more than it can be said that all people named 'Smith' are going to look alike. RR
Thanks for the reply. Hmm... so how can we get single sector monocultures of cubes?
Oh yeah, the law. lol
...
Then that would mean I'd need a pure monoculture to breed with another pure monoculture. So, where do I get a pure monoculture?
Besides an agar wedge, what strain could be likened to a pure monoculture? The dick strains.
What other pure strain could I use, then?
Why did you use puerto ricans and texas to breed the redboy and penis envy, RR?
Registered: 05/03/10 Posts: 17,329 Last seen: 57 minutes, 51 seconds
Re: Got some rattlesnake venom? Trying to make a new strain. Project in the works [Re: CaptainAhab] #14379598 - 04/30/11 11:11 PM (2 years, 19 days ago)
Registered: 05/03/10 Posts: 17,329 Last seen: 57 minutes, 51 seconds
Re: Got some rattlesnake venom? Trying to make a new strain. Project in the works [Re: CaptainAhab] #14379650 - 04/30/11 11:25 PM (2 years, 19 days ago)
Registered: 05/03/10 Posts: 17,329 Last seen: 57 minutes, 51 seconds
Re: Got some rattlesnake venom? Trying to make a new strain. Project in the works [Re: CaptainAhab] #14379839 - 04/30/11 11:56 PM (2 years, 19 days ago)
A varietal hybrid? I'm going to track down a torrent for mycology textbooks.
I'll edit this thread instead of bumping unless I come up on something extraordinary.
Discussion by Workman re: "hybrid" def. http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5585302#5585302 "I keep hearing the same claim that crossed strains are not really hybrids. Has anyone actually looked up the definition of a hybrid? It is not as restrictive as some people seem to think.
hy·brid (hÄ«'brÄd) n. Genetics. The offspring of genetically dissimilar parents or stock, especially the offspring produced by breeding plants or animals of different varieties, species, or races.
I recently bought some hybrid tomato and corn seed and I don't think they were crossed with other species. Crossing two different varieties of cubensis is considered a hybrid under the above definition.
Most strains of cubensis are very similar in appearance making visual confirmation of a successful cross impossible. For this reason I have been using very distinct strains, such as the PF Albino and Penis Envy, as my parent stock. Workman's Hybridization Experiments"
Registered: 03/26/03 Posts: 39,269 Loc: USA Mountain Northwest
Last seen: 2 days, 21 hours
Re: Got some rattlesnake venom? Trying to make a new strain. Project in the works [Re: CaptainAhab] #14381475 - 05/01/11 08:39 AM (2 years, 19 days ago)
RR created tons of generations of the penis-texas strain, then mailed a spore print by accident. It became the PE6 strain.
Does anyone have a procedure for how he did that? Maybe he'll chime in and tell us?
Two dikaryotic single sector isolated strains were crossed on a petri dish.
Personally, I disagree with using the term 'hybrid' to describe fungi crosses of the same species, but others are free to disagree, as said earlier. It's only a semantic difference, not a scientific one. RR
Registered: 04/20/09 Posts: 379 Last seen: 1 year, 9 months
Re: Got some rattlesnake venom? Trying to make a new strain. Project in the works [Re: RogerRabbit] #14381486 - 05/01/11 08:45 AM (2 years, 19 days ago)
i thought we agreed over a year ago that the term "strain" was for cannabis breeders. it's either a sub-species or it's a cube or pan. i coulda sworn we hashed all that out over a year ago. "strain" sounds very hickish and non-scientific. if it's not a pairing of two unrelated species, it's not considered, in science, to be a true new "strain" or "hybrid". if you're crossing cubes and cubes, there is no hybridization going on in the traditional sense. educatated people should know better.
also, most of the trait differences seen in these cube/cube pairings are phenotypic (ie, environmentally controlled factors, not genetic ones). i've only seen a select few instances where a new "trait" was picked up genetically (pe/ape/redboy are a few examples that comes to mind). i would also be willing to bet that these traits are in some way due to a mutation resulting from some environmental stressor and NOT of any sort of hybridization. crossing cubes and cubes is going to give you cubes. the chances that they will look or behave any differently is EXTREMELY rare if not wholly improbable and would more than likely be attributed to phenotypic adaptation then genotypic expression.
Wouldn't 2 humans mating technicaly be a hybrid as the off spring contain traits of both parents? Yes, but goes back to the argument that 2 of the same species shouldn't be called a hybrid.
Never ending argument just like wich caliber is better for self defense, . 9 or. 40
I just wanted to be a part of the thread.
Also living in Utah I find rattlesnakes every few years hiking by accident. I bet if I tried I could easily find one and milk it, especially cause it sounds like a good idea to play with a rattle snake.
I hear venom goes for 250-500 a gram. Cost of milking a snake successfully priceless
Quote: skiddy said: Wouldn't 2 humans mating technicaly be a hybrid as the off spring contain traits of both parents? Yes, but goes back to the argument that 2 of the same species shouldn't be called a hybrid.
Never ending argument just like which caliber is better for self defense, . 9 or. 40
I just wanted to be a part of the thread.
Also living in Utah I find rattlesnakes every few years hiking by accident. I bet if I tried I could easily find one and milk it, especially cause it sounds like a good idea to play with a rattle snake.
I hear venom goes for 250-500 a gram. Cost of milking a snake successfully priceless
Western diamond backs are neat
Neither are ideal for self defence, 460 rowland or 45- And it depends what you are defending against 44mag can stop any thing in North America, except for maybe a Grizz or Polar bear, reliably
Quote: skiddy said: Wouldn't 2 humans mating technicaly be a hybrid as the off spring contain traits of both parents? Yes, but goes back to the argument that 2 of the same species shouldn't be called a hybrid.
Never ending argument just like which caliber is better for self defense, . 9 or. 40
I just wanted to be a part of the thread.
Also living in Utah I find rattlesnakes every few years hiking by accident. I bet if I tried I could easily find one and milk it, especially cause it sounds like a good idea to play with a rattle snake.
I hear venom goes for 250-500 a gram. Cost of milking a snake successfully priceless
Western diamond backs are neat
Neither are ideal for self defence, 460 rowland or 45- And it depends what you are defending against 44mag can stop any thing in North America, except for maybe a Grizz or Polar bear, reliably
The .454 Casull would be better. That's besides the point, though.
I'm going to try and domesticate a few different wild cube "strains."
These were wild collected, and are undomesticated, except for possibly the transkei and texas. I'm going to try and figure out who was working with these how they came to be what they are.
I think that doing a small-level domestication will be a fun project.
Whether that will turn into a cross between strains attempt, I don't know. But it'll be fun and I'll try to post pictures
Please, keep discussing this thread if you want. I figured that I'd update it with my new plan, here, in case anyone was curious what the point of all this was. Thanks for all the replies, so far.
"Wouldn't 2 humans mating technicaly be a hybrid as the off spring contain traits of both parents? Yes, but goes back to the argument that 2 of the same species shouldn't be called a hybrid."
NOT AT ALL. still a homo-sapien. you only get a new hybrid when crossing unrelated species.
this isn't something that is easy to do (hence the reason that pan/azure hybrid has still yet to come to fruition as well as the human/rattlesnake hybrid). the difficulties in, not only mating two unrelated species, but being able to get those to reproduce so as to be able to continue the new sub-species, is a beast of a whole 'nother color.
if you cross a cubensis with another cubensis...you get a cubensis. through various phenotypic (ie environmental) influences, you can have traits that may seem unique but most likely have developed as a response to some sort of external stumuli or as some sort of unique genetic marker...kinda like a birthmark or having red hair (mainly speaking of the few unique cubensis' "varieties" that have unique traits).
Quote: apoonanor said: "Wouldn't 2 humans mating technicaly be a hybrid as the off spring contain traits of both parents? Yes, but goes back to the argument that 2 of the same species shouldn't be called a hybrid."
NOT AT ALL. still a homo-sapien. you only get a new hybrid when crossing unrelated species.
this isn't something that is easy to do (hence the reason that pan/azure hybrid has still yet to come to fruition as well as the human/rattlesnake hybrid). the difficulties in, not only mating two unrelated species, but being able to get those to reproduce so as to be able to continue the new sub-species, is a beast of a whole 'nother color.
if you cross a cubensis with another cubensis...you get a cubensis. through various phenotypic (ie environmental) influences, you can have traits that may seem unique but most likely have developed as a response to some sort of external stumuli or as some sort of unique genetic marker...kinda like a birthmark or having red hair (mainly speaking of the few unique cubensis' "varieties" that have unique traits).
That's all well and good, but you need a source.
I'll do you the favor of looking into my genetics textbook, to try and help all of you come to terms (no pun intended) with the technical definition of a "hybrid."
Here's my source:
Hartwell, Leland. "11.1 Genetic Variation Among Individual Genomes." Genetics: from Genes to Genomes. New York: McGraw-Hill, 2011. Print.
Background: "Extensive allelic variation distinguishes individuals within a species" Widespread genetic variance exists among members of a species, even when the variations do not cause a phenotypic difference. Variations are characterized by single nucleotide polymorphisms, short deletions and insertions, simple sequence repeats, and copy number polymorphisms.
On the topic of "Hybridization" I'm not going to waste my day writing this up, yet. When I start nodding off and feel like doing it, I will. Until then, enjoy "Hybrid Moments" from the misfits:
If you're gonna scream, scream with me Moments like this never last When do creatures rape your face Hybrids opened up the door
Ooh baby when you cry Your face is momentary You hide your looks behind these scars
In hybrid moments Give me a moment
Give me a moment Give me a moment
Ooh baby when you cry Your face is momentary You hide your looks behind these scars
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