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 oxalic32
Registered: 01/27/08
Posts: 3,615
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Quote:
Shroomerette said:
So the people who say atheism is a religion, does that mean that every person in the world has a religion?
Yes. Everyone has a religion even if they do not explicitly call it that.
In clouser's book of religious neutrality he gives a great argument for that.
Quote:
The first part of Clouser's Myth argues that a religious belief is any belief about the divine or any belief about how humans are related to the divine. His definition of "divine" is anything that has the status of not being dependent on anything else.
Its all about how you define the non-dependent. If you just believe in a physical reality & your nervous system, then Materialism is your religion.
He gives much more information explaining this. His argument is very convincing and his definition of religion is the most accurate in my opinion.
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 blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,512
Loc: Jacksonville FL 
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I believe you're an idiot. Is that a religion?
Just kidding. 
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
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 Re: atheism is an ugly thing  [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14233669 - 04/03/11 11:56 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
Quote:
It seems like what you're really talking about is secular humanism, though that's still most certainly not a religion, in that a rejection of religious dogma is one of it's most obvious characteristics.
no, not exactly. atheism can be a religion just like how environmentalism can be a religion. and yes, there are actually debates on whether or not environmentalism can be constituted as a religion. obviously, imo, it is. the institutionalized belief that religion has to look someway or be someway is heinous. inevitably, our debate can last forever since my views are pretty liberal, but i live contently with my system of beliefs.
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大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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blewmeanie
Sativa Cyborg
Registered: 10/01/06
Posts: 28,512
Loc: Jacksonville FL
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14233866 - 04/04/11 12:34 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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The silliest thing about this topic to me is that theism isn't even a religion, so how could atheism possibly be one.
EDIT: and there's nothing remotely liberal about you perspective, I've heard the same arguments almost word for word from orthodox jews at chabad house and pentecostal ministers in kentucky.
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mianfei
Mr.
Registered: 05/23/10
Posts: 54
Loc: Victoria, Australia 
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:Today's religion is yesterday's secular humanism. 
That is a familiar argument from the conservative side of politics, which argues that atheism is in essence a “culture of death” founded on hatred or ignorance of natural law. One can see from Arthur Brooks’ recent study Who Really Cares: The Surprising Truth About Compassionate Conservatism that atheists indeed are much more selfish and hard-hearted than those who practice religion. My brother, an extremely aggressive atheist, says Brooks has vested interests that make him want to believe religious people are more generous and compassionate but I get the impression that he does not and became a Catholic for more or less the same reason Dorothy Day did.
On the other hand, it is difficult for me to find a serious counter-argument to the thesis that selfish, materialistic atheism is an unavoidable consequence of the Industrial Revolution in all but the most mineral- and land-rich countries. Even those nations in Asia that have followed a small-government, capitalist path have become extremely secular and materialistic, with very low levels of generosity towards others. Only Australia, with its limitless supply of flat land, has retained the traditional values of Western culture to an appreciable extent. To put it another way, how can children be valuable if the economic base needed to nurture them is liable to be moved to another place with lower labour costs, and the space to nurture them is non-existent??
Thus, even if atheism leads to major demographic problems and to underlying cultural values that are to say the least nasty (though not always seen on the surface because of the effects of government redistribution), if not outright murderous as with Nazism and Marxism, one should see it as inevitable for most countries in an industrial world.
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Olympus Mons
esprit de l'univers
Registered: 09/15/09
Posts: 5,770
Loc: ∞
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14235145 - 04/04/11 10:28 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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i think atheism is a religion in the sense that everyone believes in something. what separates an atheist from a muslim aside from the type of belief? i think this point is driven home more so when atheists ban together claiming discrimination. atheists are group in the same way that christians or taoists are.
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I close my eyes and seize it
I clench my fists and beat it
I light my torch and burn it
I am the beast I worship....
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: blewmeanie] 1
#14239498 - 04/05/11 01:40 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Quote:
blewmeanie said:
The silliest thing about this topic to me is that theism isn't even a religion, so how could atheism possibly be one.
EDIT: and there's nothing remotely liberal about you perspective, I've heard the same arguments almost word for word from orthodox jews at chabad house and pentecostal ministers in kentucky.
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religion/Fac/Suydam/Reln101/Sevendi.htm
http://creation.com/atheism-a-religion
http://www.wnd.com/?pageId=31895
btw, i'm an atheist, so i'm a bit different than an orthodox jew and a minister.
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大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Shroomerette
Stranger
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14239519 - 04/05/11 01:45 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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lol @ creation.com as a source
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Leaving the shroomery forever
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
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Quote:
Shroomerette said:
lol @ creation.com as a source
it's just a fairly similar description to what i personally believe as my opinion. maybe if you actually read it, you'd see why i posted it.
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大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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Shroomerette
Stranger
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14239610 - 04/05/11 02:05 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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I see why you posted it and I understand your point, but I still disagree with the definitions of religion and atheism used in that article. That's ok, I don't mind differences of opinion. As long as you aren't trying to use creation.com as an authoritative source I have no problem with your post, since obviously that site will have a conflict of interest.
I consider myself an atheist because I do not believe in god/gods, but I do not reject the possibility that they may exist though I think it unlikely. Maybe most people would consider me agnostic in that sense. I definitively reject the possibility of the christian god as described by the bible, but there may be others, and I don't reject the possibility of some higher power. The source of the word atheism means not believing in god or gods, and that is why I consider myself atheist.
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Leaving the shroomery forever
Edited by Shroomerette (04/05/11 02:40 AM)
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
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i completely respect your stance and understand where you are coming from. i guess i have a more fundamentalist point-of-view towards atheism.
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大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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muddy
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14240101 - 04/05/11 05:09 AM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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I wouldn't call atheism an ugly thing - except for those fundamentalist atheists. I wish those ones could embrace science enough to figure out a way to kill themselves and prove their theories. Although I think that about fundamentalist or extremist anythings. Compared to religion though, I would say atheism has a pretty good track record. There's a good point made near the end of this:
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Madness comes like a mouse out of the cupboard and they hand me a photograph of the moon
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BlindSophist
you can call me BS
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 28,115
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: muddy] 1
#14242911 - 04/05/11 06:50 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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Here's where I honestly don't "get" atheism: okay, so you have a lack of beliefs re: god. This means you do not believe no gods exist, either.
In other words, you're a weak agnostic.
I don't see the difference between weak agnosticism and weak atheism. Atheism only seems differentiated to me when you actively believe THERE ARE NO GODS, and will happily inform those who believe otherwise that they are wrong.
So I don't see where it's possible to be a non-fundamentalist atheist...?
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CMACD
The Sto)))ve
Registered: 02/01/07
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Loc: West Coast yo
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:
Here's where I honestly don't "get" atheism: okay, so you have a lack of beliefs re: god. This means you do not believe no gods exist, either.
In other words, you're a weak agnostic.
I don't see the difference between weak agnosticism and weak atheism. Atheism only seems differentiated to me when you actively believe THERE ARE NO GODS, and will happily inform those who believe otherwise that they are wrong.
So I don't see where it's possible to be a non-fundamentalist atheist...?
Atheists typically don't have ANY beliefs other than what cold, hard, peer-reviewed evidence has suggested. Most of this evidence suggests that there is no god. It doesn't suggest that it is equally probable that there is or isn't one. I don't think most atheists would have a problem if you were more specific with your classing and called them a "leaning towards atheist agnostic", but why waste time with bullshit like that?
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BlindSophist
you can call me BS
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 28,115
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: CMACD] 1
#14243035 - 04/05/11 07:12 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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I wouldn't say ANY cold, hard, peer-reviewed evidence has suggested that there is or isn't a god. There is no way to test for that, or to infer a positive or negative likelihood from experimental data.
All we know for certain is that rigid, conservative institutions have dragged their heels (sometimes violently) in accepting empirical data which contradicts the view of reality they promote. This has turned a lot of science-minded individuals against such elements of their lexicon and philosophy as the unquestionable existence of "God."
So a non-fundamentalist atheist only suspects there is no god. This is a personal suspicion, since no data may be provided to rule out the existence of gods.
It should also be noted that the strength of this suspicion has its roots in that ugliest of domains: politics.
Fine by me, but there's no defensible need to broadcast such a suspicion unless you are trying to convince other people to share in it, hence fundamentalist. And that is why atheism is an ugly thing.
Edited by Tchan909 (04/05/11 07:28 PM)
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meatcakeman
the search for bodhisattva
Registered: 07/03/07
Posts: 8,380
Loc: el sol
Last seen: 1 month, 1 day
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skepticism is infectious. and we all know people are often internally stricken by differences in opinion. accordingly, some people find it more comfortable to stick to one ideology rather than wrongly choose a questionable other. it's like when you feel like you know the answer to a problem so you bubble in C, even though you secretly feel like it could've been B. yet, you continue on to finish the test, unaffected by it because you already know you're gonna pass anyways.
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大开眼界
Hasta siempre, comandante.
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BlindSophist
you can call me BS
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 28,115
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: meatcakeman] 1
#14243247 - 04/05/11 07:51 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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The argument against God from a scientific perspective seems completely schizophrenic to me, TBH.
God is a purely metaphysical entity; certain arguments as to the meaning of life, the purpose of existence, etc. may be made if we accept the existence of God.
There are absolutely NO aspects of God which may be scientifically tested. None at all. Never have been. God is an idea, not a physical reality. We can disprove certain historical and scientific aspects of the Bible, but what the fuck would you expect from the writings of people who lived thousands of years ago?
Since science has nothing to say on the substance of thought (and I should know, I'm a cognitive neuroscience major), the arguments of atheists against God seem to accept the possibility of the existence of God as a material possibility. And so they are hardcore theists. Since they cannot accept the fact that God is and always has been a human idea, they join ranks with those who believe God is a bearded man in the sky who smites unbelievers.
Absolutely no scientific data points you firmly in one direction or the other.
You might as well postulate that wherever I see the color green, you see the color purple. The only difference is that no political implications are inherent to the assertion that you see green where I see purple.
Edited by Tchan909 (04/05/11 08:08 PM)
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Quote:
Tchan909 said:
God is an idea, not a physical reality.
Great, yet another definition for the term "God". 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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BlindSophist
you can call me BS
Registered: 07/11/06
Posts: 28,115
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: atheism is an ugly thing [Re: Poid] 1
#14243397 - 04/05/11 08:15 PM (2 years, 1 month ago) |
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So are you an agnostic or an atheist, Poid?
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Agnostic.
Most people IME who believe in God would disagree with your definition BTW. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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