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Cups said:
Once you get enough perspective on your head and how emotions arise and pass away then you can do exactly that.

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deCypher said:
I realize that with enough time emotions tend to mellow out and acceptance becomes a lot easier, but it seems like circastes is advocating/living a mental state wherein he has total control over what he thinks/feels. 

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Cups said:
Once you get enough perspective on your head and how emotions arise and pass away then you can do exactly that. 

It's tough work though....  IMO Worth it because you shift from leading a reactionary life...controlled by the world around you...and start blazing your own path.

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deCypher said:
Have you encountered individuals who are capable of instantaneously altering their mental states no matter how external circumstances change them?

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You shouldn't think of it as altering how you feel irregardless of the circumstance.  Instead, think of it as not being affected by the event in the first place.

Every time you let something affect how you feel you are in essence becoming a slave to that something.  For example if you get mad when a guy cuts you off in traffic...for those 5 minutes you're mad you have, in effect, given that guy control of your life. 

How you distance yourself from this is to switch from reacting to observing.  First key to this is mindfulness.

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deCypher said:
seems like circastes is advocating/living a mental state wherein he has total control over what he thinks/feels. 

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So what?  Have you ever meditated deCypher?  If so you know that anyone can clear their mind of unwanted thoughts for a few moments at least.  With practice this can be increased to an hour or 2 or 3...So, why is it so hard to believe someone can achieve all day mindfulness?

With training humans can do amazing things.  Run 2 hour marathons, hold their breath for 6 minutes, recite pi to a thousand places.  While there are genetic/physical limitations to athletic achievement...stilling the mind is possible for any one. (as far as I know)

Don't confuse stillness with zombie like states.  You still think, the difference your thoughts are controlled.  The rambling uncontrolled negativity and anxiety is gone.  So are random off topic thoughts.

For example if you're running late to something you may notice you're late.  This is a fact and helpful.

However, you will not start a thought train like- I'm late.  Oh my god I am so late.  I'll never be there on time...everyone will be mad at me...I am so fucking stupid. etc etc etc 

That thought train starts at exaggeration and moves into speculation real quick.

While all this is well and good it simply is not enough in itself to end the reactionary mental state that caused the problems to begin with.  What mindfulness does do is present us with the chance to examine every situation free from our usual set of knee jerk responses.

I'll say upfront that I am NOT on board with everything in any branch of buddhism, but the concept of the three characteristics is a very nice one.  This is a set of aspects found in any thing or situation which you can use to examine it.  First is impermanence, next is unsatisfactoriness, and the last is no-self.

So, in the situation you described.

#1- Impermanence.  Self explanatory.  The end result for every thing is cease to be a thing.  Nothing earth shattering here.  Believing in any other outcome is delusional.

#2- Unsatisfactoriness.  Your relationship with your mother...even if every single moment was excellent...is inherently unsatisfactory because at some point it will inevitably end.  This doesn't mean that you shouldn't have or enjoy the relationship...but to believe that it will will never end is delusional. 

#3- No Self.  This gets a little tricky depending on what you believe but IMO anyone who's honest can come to understand that what we identify as ourselves, our personality, is not "real".  If you have any doubt of this consider a head injury patient who literally becomes a different "person" overnight.  Something lost so easily cannot be "self".

Extrapolating further it soon becomes clear that the "person" who you loved as your mother simply does not truly exist.  Likewise, the "person" who will be sad and miss her after she's gone doesn't truly exist either.  Once that's realized...Regardless of what you believe happens after death there is no reason to be sad. 

If you believe in nothing after death than a human body has died and nothing is lost.  If nothing is lost sadness/anger/etc is delusional.

If you believe in some sort of everlasting soul/heaven/reincarnation type thing then as the minister say- Rejoice!  Your mother's spirit is in the care of a higher power who is infinitely better at this kind of thing than you are.  The only remaining reasons to feel sad are selfish ones...and since "you" don't technically exist selfish reasons are delusional.

Last, if you believe in a unity type thing then your mother has returned to the Source and nothing is lost.  If nothing is lost sadness/anger/etc is delusional.

Sooooooooooooo....The end result of all of this is you can always see reality exactly as it truly is.

In this context negative thoughts simply do not happen.  If they do, then you are deficient in one or both areas of mindfulness and examination or "right view" as the buddhist's call it.



Thanks for giving me the chance to write this out.  Good to see I have a decent grasp of the things I think I have a decent grasp of.

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Icelander said:

Show me the man with total control?

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Give me some more time. 

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lolwut said:


Culling the emotion is just repressing it by diverting your attention. It's still there, and you can divert your attention to the point where you wont notice the diversion (or think its voluntary) but the emotions are still arising, you've just tricked yourself into not feeling them. Which in my opinion will lead to false logic/rationalisations, because you're not feeling the situation as it is - you're cutting it to fit in with your own mindset.

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Cups said:
If you believe in nothing after death than a human body has died and nothing is lost.  If nothing is lost sadness/anger/etc is delusional

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deCypher said:
how is lamenting this fact delusional?

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I would submit that lamenting any past event is delusional. 

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deCypher said:I can definitely see how using the rationalizations you listed can be helpful in overcoming sorrow though.

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circastes said:
Your emotions can be enacted with imagination. You probably know this most commonly from fantasizing about the opposite sex, or whatever - you feel love, when they're not even nearby. In the same way you can enact anger, sadness, pity, self-pity, and so on.

So that must mean when the situation actually occurs in front of your eyes, the reaction is still imagination anyway. (I don't mean to say that you're imagining it and it's not real, but rather that imagination is reality - it's all happening inside you)

So what is it that MAKES you feel that emotion regardless of your interests? Attachment and force of habit.

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I think the most interesting part of this is that you and I see emotion 99% the same but draw such different conclusions!

You see them as a necessary evil of sorts and seek to control them through further conditioning.

I see them as purely illusory and seek to control them by removing the self and seeing realty as it truly is.  Remove the fluff and all that's left is utter peace and tranquility experienced when all fear and doubt have vanished.

Either way...thoughtful and very interesting read Circastes. 

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Cups said:

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Icelander said:

Show me the man with total control?

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Give me some more time. 

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That's what we all say when we're young.

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deCypher said:

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Cups said:
If you believe in nothing after death than a human body has died and nothing is lost.  If nothing is lost sadness/anger/etc is delusional

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Nothing is lost?  In this hypothetical situation my own GRANDMOTHER is lost.... she is no longer around to talk to or be with; how is lamenting this fact delusional?

I can definitely see how using the rationalizations you listed can be helpful in overcoming sorrow though.

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Icelander said:
That's what we all say when we're young.

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Cups said:

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deCypher said:
how is lamenting this fact delusional?

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I would submit that lamenting any past event is delusional. 

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Icelander said:

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deCypher said:
I realize that with enough time emotions tend to mellow out and acceptance becomes a lot easier, but it seems like circastes is advocating/living a mental state wherein he has total control over what he thinks/feels. 

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The Chronic said:
I second that

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"Whether You Believe You Can, Or You Can't, You Are Right"
-Henry Ford

I hate to use that quote since it's so easy for someone to duck it with a nonsensical answer like - "Well I believe I can fly, I'm going to go jump off a building now."

Obviously there is a verifiable reason why that's dumb.  Funny...in a natural selection kind of way..but dumb.

I challenge anyone to show why what I posted about is not possible to achieve. 

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deCypher said:

It's not lamenting a past event in this case; it's lamenting the current fact that she's no longer around to be with.  Also delusional seems like a funny word to apply here: we're not talking about beliefs or ideas (which can be delusional) but rather a natural feeling. 

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I think you are wrong....here's why. 

I want you to think of any time where remembering loss has made you sad.  Could be a parent, a pet, or a girlfriend..  What you pick doesn't matter, only that you have missed it.

Examine the experience of "missing" or lamenting as you wrote.  Can you honestly tell me that at the base level of that experience you do not find a wish or, in more buddhist terms, a desire that things had turned out differently?  That they had not died, or that you had not broken up, or whatever?

No matter how you slice it the act of missing something involves wishing the loss had not occurred.  You never "miss" the trash you throw out do you?

Here's the delusion-  By wishing the loss had not occurred you are in fact desiring to change the past.  This is impossible.

Something I've realized while thinking about this thread is that it isn't desire in and of itself that's the problem.  After all, as the Dalai Lama says "You must have desire for buddhahood."

Rather, it the fixation on changing the unchangeable which is the issue.

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Icelander said:
Well the only evidence that is available is that no one has ever done it as far as you know.

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I don't know that many people.

Even if no one in the history of the world had done it...why should I let their failure hold me back?

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Cups said:
I think you are wrong....here's why. 

I want you to think of any time where remembering loss has made you sad.  Could be a parent, a pet, or a girlfriend..  What you pick doesn't matter, only that you have missed it.

Examine the experience of "missing" or lamenting as you wrote.  Can you honestly tell me that at the base level of that experience you do not find a wish or, in more buddhist terms, a desire that things had turned out differently?  That they had not died, or that you had not broken up, or whatever?

No matter how you slice it the act of missing something involves wishing the loss had not occurred.  You never "miss" the trash you throw out do you?

Here's the delusion-  By wishing the loss had not occurred you are in fact desiring to change the past.  This is impossible.

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I dunno, I feel like we're just arguing semantics here.  The emotional feeling of sorrow is distinct from the desire to change the past IMO.... I can intellectually realize that changing the past is impossible but this won't necessarily affect my feelings of loss. 

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Kickle said:
I don't agree that it is a good goal. Why should I want to control the mind?
Isn't it in the mind that the desire for control first takes place?

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Kickle said:
I don't agree that it is a good goal. Why should I want to control the mind?
Isn't it in the mind that the desire for control first takes place?

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Kickle said:
And I also don't choose to let my emotions control me which IMO is the only reason people try and control them.

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deCypher said:

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Kickle said:
And I also don't choose to let my emotions control me which IMO is the only reason people try and control them.

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Okay, so how do you prevent your emotions from controlling you without attempting to control them?

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deCypher said:
Desire seems inescapable in that if you wish to be free from suffering, you must desire to be free of it.  IMO Buddha is pointing out that attachment towards desires leads to suffering.

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Kickle said:
What makes one want to fulfill a desire except attachment to the desire?

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Kickle said:
Not unless you also consider it control to not let a lamp control me. I can explore a lamp in the same way I can explore an emotion. I can also invest myself in a lamp to the point of being terrified of its disappearance. Hoarders are a good example of this attachment to items.

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Icelander said:
If you explore you direct your mind to explore and that takes control.

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Kickle said:
I have accomplished many things with desires and I've failed many things with desires, but never have I been able to do so without being affected by them.

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Kickle said:
I mean, how far do you go before giving up? How do you know it's time to stop pursuing?

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deCypher said:
I dunno, I feel like we're just arguing semantics here.  The emotional feeling of sorrow is distinct from the desire to change the past IMO.... I can intellectually realize that changing the past is impossible but this won't necessarily affect my feelings of loss. 

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Cups said:
There is an ocean of difference between intellectually recognizing something and integrating that recognition into your life.

The best example of this is of course death.  We can all intellectually understand that we will inevitably die.  Even so, death anxiety has been the cause of more suffering than any other factor in human history IMO.

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Where have I disagreed with this? 

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intellectually realize that changing the past is impossible but this won't necessarily affect my feelings of loss.

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deCypher said:
It just seems very unlikely to me that a human can TOTALLY escape feeling negative emotions... what I can see is someone who upon hearing of the death of his grandmother feels the natural reaction of grief/sadness/anger and then using his understanding that all things are impermanent and that the past cannot be changed is able to transmute these feelings into a satisfactory, quick catharsis; as opposed to lingering on them for years afterward.

Maybe I'm just overly pessimistic. 

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Something I've realized while thinking about this thread is that it isn't desire in and of itself that's the problem.  After all, as the Dalai Lama says "You must have desire for buddhahood."

Rather, it the fixation on changing the unchangeable which is the issue.

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A huge problem I have with buddhism or any of the eastern religions really is that they tend to create zombie cultures.  Let's face it every majority buddhist country is a shit hole from many points of view.  The people may be happy to be oppressed by various regimes...but I'd still rather live here.

Almost all of the major scientific and cultural advancements have come from the west.  Furthermore these monks and other "serious" practitioners hole up in monasteries and completely cut themselves off from the world to do what they do.

As many people have noted if the entire world did that the world would not work as we know it.

All that said....

The current reality we're living as you describe a few posts up from here obviously is not working either.  We've got a double digit percentage of the population on anti-anxieties/anti-depressants not to mention a huge number of drug addicts and alcoholics. 

I guess what I am rambling my way to is the idea that I am trying to find a middle path...from the middle path.  A "new" understanding which takes the best of impermanence and no self etc without discounting the best of western life along the way.

That's the plan anyway.

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Willed introversion, in fact, is one of the classic implements of creative genius and be employed as a deliberate device. It drives the psychic energies into depth and activates the lost continent of unconscious infantile and archetypal images. The result, of course, may be a disintegration of consciousness more or less complete (neurosis, psychosis: the plight of spellbound Daphne); but on the other hand, if the personality is able to absorb and integrate the new forces, there will be experienced an almost super-human degree of self-consciousness and masterful control.

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