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 Unison
Stranger
Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 290
Loc: Colorado 
Last seen: 11 months, 13 days
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 Re: My basic explanation for existence  [Re: deCypher]
#13610821 - 12/10/10 03:04 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
What I'm pointing out is that unquestionable certainty that one is right is idiocy and has led to more death and suffering than most other beliefs in our history.
No, what you are doing here, is trying to make yourself look superior, by pointing out an idea that you hold superior.
Now lets drop that nonsense. I'm not telling you to believe anything.
I'm pointing in a direction, and asking you to look.
Check it out. All it takes is honesty. Look.
There is no you.
Edited by Unison (12/10/10 03:04 AM)
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 deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: Unison]
#13610831 - 12/10/10 03:06 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Unison said:
No, what you are doing here, is trying to make yourself look superior
Projection much? Please stop making assumptions as to why I'm posting.
Quote:
Unison said:
There is no you.
There very may well be no you, but my point (again) is that insistence on absolute certainty is the wrong way to go.
Yes, yes, look at me! I know the truth and anyone who disagrees is wrong! Wrong, I tell you!
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
  
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foliocb
Self-destruction...
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 1,073
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: Unison]
#13610832 - 12/10/10 03:06 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Unison said:
[
No, what you are doing here, is trying to make yourself look superior, by pointing out an idea that you hold superior.
Sounds like Unison.
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wat
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Unison
Stranger
Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 290
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 11 months, 13 days
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: foliocb]
#13610845 - 12/10/10 03:09 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
foliocb said:
So you know everything is just a thought, yet you don't know where they come from, obviously. So in that sense, different thoughts could come from other sources, even potentially malicious sources(although, I personally don't objectify good or bad) and you wouldn't even know... yet you don't care about this fundamental error.
The thought of noself is just as much of a thought as you owning a self. And yes, the latter thought has created thousands of years of shit. And I will help spin the wheels of change. However, it is through my own means and not because I have any obligation or responsibility... nor will it impose anything onto people who don't want to listen in the first place. The only true responsibility I ever had was to free myself. In that regards, my world is already free. The urge to free the world with 'your' truth is just more, slightly subtle egoplay.
No, it's not a thought.
No-self is not a state. But, self is a state.
Self is an assumption. No-self is a lack of assumption.
As for where thoughts come from, I figured you would get my meaning. Look outside. See a tree? Look at a leaf. Where did that leaf come from?
The same damn place your thought came from. The flow of time. Things arise into and out of existence. So do your thoughts.
And knock off this "my world" nonsense. You are just being strange. There's the universe. You cannot own it. You cannot create one. There's not a you to do that.
There's just reality, as it is, right now.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: Unison]
#13610851 - 12/10/10 03:10 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Unison said:
Self is an assumption. No-self is a lack of assumption.
What a loaded statement. Both are beliefs, certainly.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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foliocb
Self-destruction...
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 1,073
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: Unison]
#13610856 - 12/10/10 03:13 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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All these words and metaphors you throw at me are all thoughts...ideas...patterns recognized and interpreted subjectively by the brain. Trace any thought to its finest core and youll get the same thing every time, its a thought/pattern that you interpret a certain way. Thought doesn't come from 'time', its just another thought you held onto and tried to justify. No human knows where thoughts come from, nor will we ever. Trying to objectify your subjective truth is strange.
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wat
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CiaranRT
Stranger
Registered: 12/10/10
Posts: 1
Last seen: 2 years, 6 months
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: foliocb]
#13610858 - 12/10/10 03:14 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Let this guy go, Unison. Look.
We can free people, but we can't change people. And that means that if someone has wallowed for a long time in self-indulgence?
Freedom isn't a magic wand, dude. All I'll say is this.
The free who are weak enough to just sit and do nothing while the world burns? Look - they're out of our way. They're just bodies on the ground now, for all their bleating. They've taken themselves out of the equation, and we don't need to worry about them. What are they going to do? Organise? Are they fuck. They'll just wallow. Fine. They're out of our way.
This is the problem with drugs, and people who come to freedom from this place - there's so much laxness, weakness. It's like there's nothing more to life than a recreational pastime, and ignoring terrible suffering and horrific injustice is something they've been doing for a long time.
They make a virtue of it.
There are of course those who haven't yet fled like cowards from the horrors of reality. But not this guy dude. Not this guy.
At the end of the day he's free.
And so he agrees with you, so what? Are you going to take him by the hand and walk him every step of the way? Are you going to hold the line every time he falls back? Are you going to make sure his relationship with you doesn't develop into dependence, but leads him to true independence?
How long will that take, until he has fully matured?
You're trying to do a job his parents should have done, raise him to be a man. I mean, seriously. Like, this is what you are actually attempting. You'll watch him have a tantrum now.
At the end of the day, mate - no. You're not a surrogate parent for people who are already free. You're a fucking warrior for people who are not. Never speak with this man again.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: foliocb]
#13610861 - 12/10/10 03:14 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I feel a quote by RAW is relevant here:
It's important to abolish the unconscious dogmatism that makes people think their way of looking at reality is the only sane way of viewing the world. My goal is to try to get people into a state of generalized agnosticism, not agnosticism about God alone, but agnosticism about everything. If one can only see things according to one's own belief system, one is destined to become virtually deaf, dumb, and blind. It's only possible to see people when one is able to see the world as others see it. That's what guerrilla ontology is — breaking down this one-model view and giving people a multi-model perspective.
Quote:
CiaranRT said:
Never speak with this man again.
 of course... a belief system is best solidified if one refuses to engage with any disagreeable viewpoints.
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Unison
Stranger
Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 290
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 11 months, 13 days
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: deCypher]
#13610864 - 12/10/10 03:15 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I need to take a fucking walk.
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foliocb
Self-destruction...
Registered: 07/14/08
Posts: 1,073
Last seen: 1 hour, 6 minutes
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: CiaranRT]
#13610868 - 12/10/10 03:16 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Haha, yeah unison. Listen to your master 
I must really be striking a chord with Ciaran, he doesn't seem to stop talking about me. Musta had a bad cupa tea this mornin'.
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wat
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: Unison]
#13610872 - 12/10/10 03:17 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Unison said:
I need to take a fucking walk.
If there is no you, then WHO is taking the walk? 
Sorry to be busting your balls here, but surely you can see my reasoning for why dogmatism should be avoided. Also I find it curious that you claim you don't give a fuck about Ciaran only minutes before he shows up to back you. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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Unison
Stranger
Registered: 11/08/10
Posts: 290
Loc: Colorado
Last seen: 11 months, 13 days
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: deCypher]
#13610883 - 12/10/10 03:22 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
deCypher said:
Quote:
Unison said:
I need to take a fucking walk.
If there is no you, then WHO is taking the walk?
Don't waste my time. I've explained this.
Quote:
deCypher said:
Sorry to be busting your balls here, but surely you can see my reasoning for why dogmatism should be avoided.
I'm always up for some ball busting. I'm always up for someone to point out a flaw in my reasoning.
All I'm asking of you, is to look for yourself, and to do it honestly.
I'll leave you to ponder that.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: Unison]
#13610886 - 12/10/10 03:23 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Unison said:
All I'm asking of you, is to look for yourself, and to do it honestly.
I'll add it on to my to-do list along with the advice from the Jehovah's Witnesses who told me that I would find salvation in Jesus if I only looked hard enough. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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deCypher
Registered: 02/10/08
Posts: 53,700
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: deCypher]
#13610951 - 12/10/10 03:51 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I mean, my basic issue with the statement "there is no you" comes down to semantics, as most arguments relating to ineffable mysticism do. Sure, I agree that there is no independent, unchanging self... that much seems intuitively clear. But at the same time, "you" do exist in the sense that you are a human doin' and thinkin' various thangs, not to mention that if "you" didn't exist we couldn't be having this conversation right now.
Whatevs. I just dislike dogmatic proselytization. 
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We are all in the gutter, but some of us are looking at the stars.
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LeeHarvOz
Stranger
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: deCypher]
#13611026 - 12/10/10 04:20 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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na dude you got it all wrong. our purpose is to destroy the earth, sit back make some garbage and do your part.
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circastes
Being too serious
Registered: 01/14/10
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: LeeHarvOz]
#13611059 - 12/10/10 04:35 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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I really like 'you' and your ideas foliocb. 
I agree there is no self and all is mind or imagination. There is this kind of 'beyond self' self though, this self that is no-thing. Hard to explain but it's certainly erroneous to go around like you have nothing there to guide your actions, no nexus or centre to your actions. Perhaps love is what we are.
I too have seen this Wonderland dimension, or my imagination's spin of it. Are they the same? Well our minds are the same, regardless of any illusion of distance. Fact is, there are infinite worlds like this, because it's all up to you.
Saving yourself is saving the world, I agree. You'll see less and less depressed people around you, your happiness will wash off on others, and you will begin to meet more and more people like yourself. If you take total control, you won't even be in any world, there will be only now and you'll probably never see or hear of suffering again.
Besides, everyone is enlightened anyway, they're just acting, pretending. All the pain is an illusion and everyone is an eternal spiritual being created by the thought of God.
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"Your salvation may lie in a rational apprehension of the present moment."
-Terence McKenna
"There never was any forgetfulness for Self."
-Ramana Maharshi
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Kickle
A Dying Hope
Registered: 12/16/06
Posts: 13,175
Last seen: 2 hours, 32 minutes
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: foliocb]
#13611522 - 12/10/10 10:34 AM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Play nice guys.
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circastes
Being too serious
Registered: 01/14/10
Posts: 5,736
Loc:
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: Kickle]
#13613035 - 12/10/10 04:39 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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By the way there are no horrors to reality, there are only horrors to your imagination. Do you know child birth is supposed to be pleasurable for both the mother and child? But the mother and child fight eachother, which causes the birth trauma. Why do the animals have the same problem? I'm assuming there are struggles. Because they are in our imagination, in our field of consciousness, they suffer the same effects.
It's hard to explain but it's like we're all in individual universes.
I know it feels very brave and righteous to say "let's accept these bad things and fight on" but the bad things are your creation. The universe, assuming you can say there is one, is benevolent. Why would God create a game where all is suffering? Surely we're just being idiots. I'm willing to bet that before civilization and recorded history there was no suffering, there wasn't even starvation. The omniscience of the gods that roamed the planet then led them straight to foraging grounds. Since evidence suggests we've always been carnivores they probably hunted animals perfectly and painlessly.
All it takes is a functioning imagination.
If you let it function as it should, the weather will bring rain when needed, and not too much sunshine, crops for the commercial farmers will grow faster and pests will roam elsewhere. You'll never have the problem of food shortage or something similar because truly, you don't want to.
These other people suffering these problems have surrendered to chaos.
I'm not being an idealist or optimist, I'm just piecing together what's really going on after this mess called history and civilization is out of the picture.
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"Your salvation may lie in a rational apprehension of the present moment."
-Terence McKenna
"There never was any forgetfulness for Self."
-Ramana Maharshi
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Poid
Shroomery's #1 Spellir
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,367
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: circastes]
#13613089 - 12/10/10 04:47 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
circastes said:
By the way there are no horrors to reality, there are only horrors to your imagination.
I suppose our imaginations don't exist, then, eh?
Quote:
circastes said:
Do you know child birth is supposed to be pleasurable for both the mother and child?
Where in the hell did you read that?
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circastes said:
But the mother and child fight eachother, which causes the birth trauma.
They fight each other? Explain.
Quote:
circastes said:
I know it feels very brave and righteous to say "let's accept these bad things and fight on" but the bad things are your creation.
Homeless people created their struggle?
Quote:
circastes said:
The universe, assuming you can say there is one, is benevolent. Why would God create a game where all is suffering?
Why wouldn't he, and why do you assume the universe is benevolent? Why do you say "assuming you can say there is one", as if it's somewhat likely that there isn't?
Quote:
circastes said:
Surely we're just being idiots. I'm willing to bet that before civilization and recorded history there was no suffering, there wasn't even starvation. The omniscience of the gods that roamed the planet then led them straight to foraging grounds. Since evidence suggests we've always been carnivores they probably hunted animals perfectly and painlessly.
Yeah, all that must explain evolution. 
Quote:
circastes said:
All it takes is a functioning imagination.
Apparently not. 
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circastes said:
If you let it function as it should...
How should it function, IYO?
Quote:
circastes said:
These other people suffering these problems have surrendered to chaos.
Sure, but that's not why they are in chaos.
Quote:
circastes said:
I'm not being an idealist or optimist, I'm just piecing together what's really going on after this mess called history and civilization is out of the picture.
No, you're definitely being an optimistic idealist! 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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whiteelephant
Nod Scene
Registered: 07/16/10
Posts: 59
Loc: Floating Throush Space
Last seen: 1 month, 24 days
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Re: My basic explanation for existence [Re: Poid]
#13613162 - 12/10/10 04:59 PM (2 years, 6 months ago) |
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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself." -- Carl Sagan
This quote single-handedly blows my mind. Aside from all things we are now, think of what we used to be. The matter in our bodies is the same matter that is spread throughout the universe. Through the expansion, growth, and organization of the universe evolution eventually created us out of that matter. Now we are studying ourselves and the world around us. In a sense, the cosmos created beings that are now studying and understanding the cosmos.
I like to meditate to reflect on my own thoughts and to explore myself. It's almost as though we are the tools of meditation for the universe itself.
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