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 Poid
deBunker
 
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area 
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 Re: Disbelievers in the spiritual and mystical side of things...  [Re: retrospect]
#13568646 - 12/01/10 05:16 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
retrospect said:
I think that we could diagnose this society humanity as a whole with quite a severe mental illness.
Fixed. 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylan   fireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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 retrospect
Registered: 01/08/07
Posts: 1,340
Last seen: 1 year, 5 months
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Re: Disbelievers in the spiritual and mystical side of things... [Re: retrospect]
#13568649 - 12/01/10 05:17 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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"Science has failed Mother Earth"
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g00ru
the kava crow
Registered: 08/09/07
Posts: 17,409
Loc: atlantis
Last seen: 9 hours, 35 minutes
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Re: Disbelievers in the spiritual and mystical side of things... [Re: Poid]
#13569182 - 12/01/10 07:10 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Poid said:
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guruu said:
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Poid said:
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guruu said:
Thousands of coinciding experiences point towards something.
Mental illness? Wishful thinking? 
I think wishful thinking is a pretty weak explanation.
Why?
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guruu said:
And the explanation of mental illness only brings up more questions. Who is to say there's something wrong with you if thousands of people have the exact same experiences?
You actually think all people with mental illness experience the exact same delusions/hallucinations? 
Quote:
guruu said:
Whose definition of 'illness' are we using here?
If their symptoms are making it difficult for them to become an independent adult, then we define the cause of the said symptoms as an illness.
I'm talking about the "hallucinations" pertaining to this thread, like ufo's and ghosts. That's a pretty consistent phenomenon, you must admit. And yes exactly, if you can't function in the game of society, then it's labeled an illness. But please tell me how you can see that's a totally arbitrary definition. In many societies where shamanism is practiced, people with visions are exalted and trained as shamans, not shunned and locked up in mental hospitals, or fed mind dulling drugs.
And seriously, what do you think about the DMT explanation? From what I've heard it links together the widest amount of experiences and provides a cogent physical link to spiritual experiences. Hence the term 'spirit molecule' as Strassman calls it.
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andrewss
precariously aggrandized
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 8,698
Loc: ohio
Last seen: 8 days, 22 hours
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Re: Disbelievers in the spiritual and mystical side of things... [Re: the bizzle]
#13569932 - 12/01/10 09:35 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
the bizzle said:
my question is: what is there to disbelieve? 
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Jesus loves you.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 3 months, 5 days
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Re: Disbelievers in the spiritual and mystical side of things... [Re: andrewss]
#13570479 - 12/01/10 11:18 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
andrewss said:
Quote:
the bizzle said:
my question is: what is there to disbelieve?
i don't understand your graemlin
in other words, what i am asking is
are "disbelievers" simply such because of what they associate others' ideas of "spirituality & mysticism" with? (i.e., ridiculousness)
or have they actually gazed upon the stars and moon as the sun sets in the grand canyon and thought to themselves "well there is definitely absolutely nothing spiritual or mystical about this"? (not the most poetic example but hopefully you get the point)
or even just music.... has music ever moved you? BAM! spiritual experience... and you didnt even get raped by ghosts
so what is this? science and rationality vs. new agey-ness and superstition?
or is it really "my experience with this WORD vs. your experience with this WORD"?
because to me, science can be pretty fucking mystical, as long as it is mature enough not to resort to the argument from incredulity
and spirituality does not have to imply a leap of faith into superstition...the "truest" spirituality imo begins with an actual observation just like the scientific method. Again, the argument from incredulity is a potential mistake here
For what its worth, there are stubborn and fantastic fools on both sides. Philosophers and mystics alike can get incredibly ridiculous. And now what's this, republicans vs democrats? so you just pick a side and stick to it, eh?
it's almost as if some of our "philosophers" are acting like members of the very things they like to mock: cults
but it would be ignorant of me to completely disregard philosophy altogether just because many of its cult members are insane 
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MY HAIR IS A BIRD
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
   
Edited by the bizzle (12/01/10 11:20 PM)
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c0sm0nautt
Registered: 05/19/08
Posts: 10,027
Loc: NY
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Re: Disbelievers in the spiritual and mystical side of things... [Re: the bizzle]
#13570504 - 12/01/10 11:24 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Epic post. 
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The intuitive mind is a sacred gift, and the rational mind is a faithful servant. We have created a society that honors the servant, and has forgotten the gift. - Albert Einstein
    
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Disbelievers in the spiritual and mystical side of things... [Re: g00ru]
#13574545 - 12/02/10 07:23 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
guruu said:
And the explanation of mental illness only brings up more questions. Who is to say there's something wrong with you if thousands of people have the exact same experiences?
You actually think all people with mental illness experience the exact same delusions/hallucinations?
Quote:
guruu said:
Whose definition of 'illness' are we using here?
If their symptoms are making it difficult for them to become an independent adult, then we define the cause of the said symptoms as an illness.
Quote:
guruu said:
I'm talking about the "hallucinations" pertaining to this thread, like ufo's and ghosts. That's a pretty consistent phenomenon, you must admit.
So are many other hallucinations, what's your point? Also, there are many hallucinations that aren't experienced by a significant amount of the population.
Quote:
guruu said:
And yes exactly, if you can't function in the game of society, then it's labeled an illness.
Not only if you can't function, but if it's distressing.
Quote:
guruu said:
But please tell me how you can see that's a totally arbitrary definition. In many societies where shamanism is practiced, people with visions are exalted and trained as shamans, not shunned and locked up in mental hospitals, or fed mind dulling drugs.
It's not arbitrary--if you experience symptoms which lessen your quality of life, the cause of the said symptoms are an illness.
Quote:
guruu said:
And seriously, what do you think about the DMT explanation? From what I've heard it links together the widest amount of experiences and provides a cogent physical link to spiritual experiences. Hence the term 'spirit molecule' as Strassman calls it.
What is the DMT explanation? That people who use it experience similar effects? Do you seriously think that is evidence of spirituality?
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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Poid
deBunker
Registered: 02/04/08
Posts: 40,361
Loc: SF Bay Area
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Re: Disbelievers in the spiritual and mystical side of things... [Re: the bizzle]
#13574561 - 12/02/10 07:26 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
the bizzle said:
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Ghosts and shit.
hmm i didn't know spirituality was something that always implied ghosts and shit.
Well it does, it always suggests the existence of unprovable superstitious phenomenon.
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the bizzle said:
I thought it was more often about the interest in self-awareness, the kind of thing that might help a person grow out of ghosts and shit
No, it's mostly about belief in stupid shit.
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the bizzle said:
tripping has always been extremely "mystical" for me...that's just one of the more appropriate words for it
Every "mystical" person has their own unique theories, hence all the various major religions.
Quote:
the bizzle said:
and i know there is a lot of superstition in mysticism but it doesn't have to be superstition. it can also be very practical and realistic...you know, like planting tomatos n shit
How is planting tomatos mystical?
Quote:
the bizzle said:
in fact, there are probably quite a few people who would argue that the kind of stuff found in teenage nu-wiccan practices and even ill-conceived "trip reports" and such are lacking a real mystic spirituality
So? Like I said, everybody has their own unique theories; most of them contain superstitious nonsense.
Quote:
the bizzle said:
just one of many examples where real spirituality and mysticism can be found is in the music of Jimi Hendrix and The Doors. Great lyrics and energy behind the music that capture some of the spiritual and mystical side of things
"Real" spirituality? 
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Well I try my best to be just like I am, but everybody wants you to be just like them. -- Bob Dylanfireworks_god said:It's one thing to simply enjoy a style of life that one enjoys, but it's another thing altogether to refer to another person's choice as "wrong" or to rationalize their behavior as being pathological or resulting from some sort of inadequacy or failing so as to create a sense of superiority or separation as yet another projection of a personal fear or control issue.
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the bizzle
the joke that no one spoke
Registered: 04/14/09
Posts: 11,870
Loc: :seriousbusiness:
Last seen: 3 months, 5 days
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Re: Disbelievers in the spiritual and mystical side of things... [Re: Poid]
#13574920 - 12/02/10 09:03 PM (2 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
"Real" spirituality?
yes. Real; as in...it actually exists
the power of music is not an unprovable superstitious phenomena, it is a mystery
you can come to all sorts of your own conclusions as to how or how not, but it doesn't change the fact that its doin thangs
Focusing on what makes the difference between an irritating singing tone and a resonant one, and learning how to channel that, or maybe even affect other lives with it...that is spirituality
Spirituality is just a word I use to describe my interest in being real with myself; not wanting to be deluded, and understanding that I likely am in many cases
of course, it took some experience to really get myself to let go of things I didn't realize I wasn't letting go of
and there's still more. That is spirituality
so, in the process of being "real" with oneself, you might have to let go of what your idea of "spirituality" is.
that's the problem some disbelievers have with spiritual people, and that's the problem some spiritual people have with disbelievers
I'm just trying to live...and for a variety of reasons, I'm pretty certain that "knowing how to live" (for lack of better words at the moment) is not entirely intrinsic. I am alive, and somehow I feel like I have a responsibility to live...so I care. That caring, or attention to life is what makes me sometimes describe myself as "spiritual", although I don't like the new-ageness vibe that tends to be associated with the word. But then again potsmoking tends to be associated with Twinkies or mental retardation... but I've had some of my most profound experiences with weed, and to the surprise of many, pot smokers can make good use of motor skills
and music
MUSIC
is just
doin thangs
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MY HAIR IS A BIRD
YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALID
Edited by the bizzle (12/02/10 09:05 PM)
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